How to force opponent defenders to SALLY OUT?

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personally i dislike the ai script for sieging a castle/town. so currently i'm looking for force opponents to sally out and fight me on the field. then take their empty castle. Problem is that I don't know how to trigger it. I assumed it was when you are attacking with a smaller force. but at what % of enemy army?
Initially I thought it was about 33% meaning if you are attacking 300 men with 100 they will sally out. my latest success in this happened a patch ago tho, in an earlier save file that i started in early april. i attacked the last vlandian town defended by 1200 men with my army of 400. they sallied out and it was a bloodbath.
but since then i've had no luck. just Today, went to attack sibil, it was defended by 550 and i only have 98 guys under my command. they didn't sally out... what a bunch of chickens...
 
It has to do with some calculations, also the number of men does not equal army power, that might be the reason behind that.
 
If you destroy walls and their siege engines with your own the ai army you lead will do a pretty good job.

Or you could try starving them out :smile:? If you are a bit of a rogue you could raid villages connected to castles you want to eventually seige to lower their food stock in preparation.
 
If you destroy walls and their siege engines with your own the ai army you lead will do a pretty good job.

Or you could try starving them out :smile:? If you are a bit of a rogue you could raid villages connected to castles you want to eventually seige to lower their food stock in preparation.
ever noticed the starvation to have any effect? I didnt.
 
Sounds like a exploit that shouldnt work anyway so why bother..
how is it an exploit if i attack a town with 20% of their men power only to force them to fight in the field with me? that's a part of the game. called sallying out. you can do it too when defending a town vs a siege at any time. I'm just trying to figure out how to trigger it with 100% success so i don't have to keep tweaking how many men i bring cause it's a pain to run to your garrison and deposit some army then run to the place you are attacking.


It has to do with some calculations, also the number of men does not equal army power, that might be the reason behind that.
i bet it does, but what calculations? also despite having higher tier troops on average my army power was still not half his when its 99 vs 550. i managed to get him to come out of the gate and fight me in front of the town during the siege. but still their wall archers had so much high ground advantage the fight wasn't pretty.


If you destroy walls and their siege engines with your own the ai army you lead will do a pretty good job.

Or you could try starving them out :smile:? If you are a bit of a rogue you could raid villages connected to castles you want to eventually seige to lower their food stock in preparation.
yes, but i don't want to camp outside their town for another week to 10 days while my towns get sieged by enemy armies. when the opponent sallys out to fight you they do it when you have constructed 5-10% of your siege camp which saves so much time, after the battle i don't even need to build a ram and ladders since they have no men in there to defend. staving out only starts to have an effects like 3-5 days after they have 0 food and still it kills a few troops per day. also while using siege weapons my men might die in the bombardment.

the whole point here is to have more control over my men rather than having them follow an ai script to die needlessly or die to rng or w/e. i don't eve mind if my entire infantry squad get killed while holding a shield wall but i don't want 1 soldier to die for free. and frankly i don't have much control in sieges. for example, i have a bunch of Fian champs that can outshoot enemy archers, should i have them charge the wall and climb the ladder? or should i have them sit ouside enemy range and pick them off? well ai seems to think the best use of them is assaulting the ladder which isn't ideal at all, even when you tell them to not move, a few will automatically go up and start pushing stuff and of course get shot to death, and a few more will come, eventually you've lost 100 men just like that when they could have sat far in the back and killed 50 enemy wall archers...
 
As of glorious, buggy 1.4, Starvation has a chance of decreasing the garrison but raising the militia, great if you're afraid of high tier units at least.

I noticed that, but for me for example, as I play modded version to make it at least somehow challenging, I have upped the militia production by significant number, so 100 men in garrison is cool if they starve, but I still have up to 800 militia to deal with xD
 
i bet it does, but what calculations?

Most of the games "power" calculations do not base decisionmaking on #of men, but on the "balance of power score".
City might not sally out if 500vs100 if you have 100 t5 as most of the defenders are t2 militia.
Look at the balance of power marker before you attack the city and experiment with dev console to establish what is the treshold.
From my experience it has to be at least in 75% advantage for the defender to sally out.
 
Well since there is no point in leaving your castle defences to meet someone on the field, where you have no real advandage I would assume the AI would not sally out ever unless they have more than 60% cav in which case they might be better off fighting in an open field but that is almost never going to happen. I mean why would they ever give up their defensive advatage of the castle? Yes at some point the AI would sally out almost always but that was a bug and I don't think sallying out has any real use other than being able to fully utilize your cavalry and even then giving up castle walls is kinda not worth. I would just abandon that strategy because it makes no sense for the defending side.
 
I mean why would they ever give up their defensive advatage of the castle?

Because they might be running out of food. I don't know if AI factors that or not but it would make sense if it would. It takes just couple of game days to deplete food stockpile in the besieged castle or town.

There are other factors, like lost income and decrease in prosperity, that would make breaking the siege meaningful if garrison had enough forces to do it.
 
I mean why would they ever give up their defensive advatage of the castle?
because they already have a numbers advantage of 5 to 1 and a power level advantage of more than 2 to 1. they see it as an opportunity to wipe me out. like when you encounter an enemy army of greater number and when you try to go "lets go our separate ways eh?" and they say "i got you cornered, this opportunity is too good you can't get out of this." except i use terrain and high level archers much better so i'd still win if the fight broke out.

Most of the games "power" calculations do not base decisionmaking on #of men, but on the "balance of power score".
City might not sally out if 500vs100 if you have 100 t5 as most of the defenders are t2 militia.
Look at the balance of power marker before you attack the city and experiment with dev console to establish what is the treshold.
From my experience it has to be at least in 75% advantage for the defender to sally out.
my 100 man army's power level is about 40% of the opponent's despite having higher tier troops. they have a 350 man garrison with many high level troops as well. their advantage is well over 2 to 1 in power.
 
so i've figured out a workaround but it's kinda buggy.
siege normally. and deploy your men as far from the castle as you can, and right at the start of battle order them to hold position (because of the ai script many of them won't listen to your command, but the workaround is to use f7 and put them into a different group, then make them move). make sure all your men are sitting back, as farm from enemy fire as possible and now you order some to retreat. the exact number depends on the defenders balls i think. but start by having about 1/3 of their # of men to say and the rest go home, you can always tell more to retreat later but not call them back. (in this step it's obviously better to keep your archers the more the better)
at some point the opponent will see u have too few men outside and rush to meet you. this is when you set up your archers and shoot the opponent down as they charge towards you. what will happen is that the opponent will rout extremely easily in this state. meaning even if they still have 200 men and vs only 50, if you've killed like 25 of them before they got to your men they'll retreat. except this time the castle gate is closed on them.
now you can take caution to move your men up and shoot down all the enemy defenders just standing in front of their gates begging to be let in. of course your men will be subject to enemy wall archers as well so be careful.
whether you decided to farm those kill or not, you can retreat your army from the siege having killed a number of their men and repeat the process until they have few left. the wall archers will generally not come out, but they also have no shields and worse close quarters ability. basically i split my siege into 2 parts, as soon as my siege camp is set up i go kill his infantry like that. and when hes got only archers left i build a ram and ladders and lead my troops in. the level of casualties is reduced significantly. due to the lack of mosh pit dog piles at the top of walls.

what i find in sieging is that reducing the "battle size" can be a huge advantage. since the ladders are the bottleneck allowing 2/3 units to pass at a time (even if you blow the wall open the space is limited) meaning the smaller battle size the better the ratio of troops coming up the ladder vs enemies waiting at the top. basically if the combat size is big enough (like 800-1000) your men arriving at the top of the wall might get swarmed by 10 times the enemies and will all die before doing much. of course it also has to do with how many men you bring, but in a siege scenario the defender has 2x advantage. meaning even if you have 400 men vs his 200, and running 200 battlesize. you'll only have 100 men in the siege at a time to his 100, even though in a field battle you'd have ~130 vs his ~70. so if you are invading a town of 500 men with an army of 1000 running on 1000 battle size. you'd be in the fight 500 vs 500. but still 2-3 men up a ladder at a time vs 100 men defending top of the wall... not recommended even if you blow open the walls (but the process of destroying enemy walls takes weeks of bombardment which starves them out and also kills troops in the process, so by the time their walls open, they have 300 men left and you don't really need the walls open anymore anyways)
 
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