[e1.0.1] List of questionable items (armor & weapon) values

[flavberg]

I like the new values, amazing job devs, they seem way better balanced (e1.0.3), but there are still some questionable ones:

1. Eastern curved boots are less armor than mere wrapped shoes (12 vs 17). They need a buff or wrapped shoes need a nerf.

2. Imperial mail coif is underpowered. It provides the same defence as an imperial leather coif.

3. Eastern plated leather. While its counterpart looks more balanced, this one is still a bit high. I'd make the body armor a bit more than its counterpart due to the metal thing on the chest but keep the armor and leg armor buff since the model does show more protection in those areas. The price is also a bit ridiculous.

4. White/Red Tabard Over Mail. This definitely needs a buff on arm and leg armor, or the hauberks need a nerf. It's the same stats but evidently covers more.

5. Southern Robe With Mail. This also requires more arm and leg armor.

6. Highland Noble Armor. While it appears to protect just as much as the Northern Hauberk in terms of arms and leg, it's extremely low in value in those regards. It needs a buff or the Northern Hauberk needs a nerf in leg and arm armor.

7. Western Mail Shirt. Appearance-wise, it's the same as a hauberk, perhaps a bit better since the chainmail appears to cover slightly more in the groin area. It should have same or slightly better stats.

8. Western Chainmail. 24 defence for the body is completely unfitting for this armor.

9. Highland Scale Mail. This should definitely have more leg armor, if not also some more body armor.

10. Wrapped Shoes. They look poverty attire. They shouldn't be 17, in my opinion, as they provide more defence than actual leather boots.

11. Imperial Gambesons. This needs to be addressed ASAP, there is a huge body armor difference between them for no reason. They should be similar, or even the same body armor, unless the model clearly calls for more defence, but from what I can see, there's nothing to allow such difference.

 

[blazerules]

+1 this is a pretty big issue with Bannerlord. The item stats and prices feel absolutely arbitrary.

You want nonsense? Have you seen the Plumped Fur Lined "helmet". Which is more of a hat.

Look at the armour value, 28. It protects as much as a tall helmet... which looks like it should clearly do more. And well, all the others too.

I'm also not sure why the bronze helmet provides 1 more armour than the iron varient, and costs more. It's bronze which is softer I thought? Thus less protective?

The prices are also all over the place. You have a helmet costing 629 offer the same protective value as one that costs 880... and weighs less?

EDIT:
Lets go even more silly.

The Eastern armour costs 79,224 compared to Imperial which is 56,558.
The price difference of 22,666 is governed by -4 body armour, -3 Leg armour and +2 Arm armour. So I assume the +2 to the arms is worth 22,666.

 

[zMasterofPie]

You're a saint for making this thread, +1. Also, the northern hauberk you mentioned only actually has 8 defense. 8 defense for a mail hauberk that should provide defense in the high 20's to low 30's. The imperial mail over leather looks to protect slightly less than the northern hauberk yet it has a whole 4 times the armor value. Also, a lot of Sturgian units use the northern hauberk and as such they are all weak af.

 

[blazerules]

So I looked through all the items in game and this one rubbed me the wrong way.

A wicker shield. That costs 19,972 and is by far the best shield out of all the shields in the game as far as I can tell. It's big, it has a huge amount of HP too.

It costs a lot. As a wicker shield. A material that is, by all accounts really cheap. They made houses out of it because its cheap, but they had to reinforce it (and keep warm/cold in/out) with straw mixed with mud and cow dung. Then plastered white to look nice, if you ever saw medieval houses that had white walls with the wooden beams visible that's what they're made of.

Yet this shield is made out of wicker is insanely expensive and really great.

Though I'm not sure if this is actually meant to be in game and might be a thing devs use for some purposes as I didn't play enough to encounter it. Hopefully that is the case but its hilariously good.

 

[zMasterofPie]

Though I'm not sure if this is actually meant to be in game and might be a thing devs use for some purposes as I didn't play enough to encounter it. Hopefully that is the case but its hilariously good.

No, unfortunately it is in use by the Khuzait heavy infantry. I had forgotten about this shield, this is obviously ludicrous as you pointed out. Literally a shield made of the same crap that $5 chair in my backyard is made of, and it costs about 20k denars. Irl they were damn good shields but they should NOT cost that much, they should be cheap as hell for the defense they provide.

 

[Experimental]

Thank you for making this thread. I've mentioned this issue so many times within my group and all I ever hear from them is that the game is "EaRlY AcCesS". That doesn't make it suddenly better that Taleworlds didn't even bother balancing armour prices and values before releasing the damn game.

This just goes to show that all these values on armours really don't make any sense. Hell, there's a tournament item that provides 28 body armour as a small cloak with a small metal disk above your chest. You can get around 77 amour if you combine that with the Imperial Scale armour.

I feel that modders and people in the community could fix this quicker than the guys over at Taleworlds. Hell, stores don't even properly work still, not even selling most higher tier armours.

 

[blazerules]

Anyone who uses "early access" as an excuse to not give feedback or criticism has no idea what early access means. Early Access is the time to give feedback and criticism so that things are fixed.

Irl they were damn good shields

As for wicker shields they were good, but they weren't this good. This is a material peasant fences were made out of cause its cheap and easy.

Let me compare the 2 other shields that have the same amount of HP as this wicker shield.

In fact they have the exact same stats as the wicker shield but weigh more, and cost less. This is a factor of prices feeling 100% random. Especially considering an oak shield with steel costs less? Then you have a pavise shield that has a lot more metal on it costs... less? And same HP? Despite all that metal realistically meaning it can take more of a beating?

Well they're both awful compared to the wicker shield that weighs less and is bigger thus more arrow cover. It just costs an ungodly amount.
(The only difference is weight. So you can say that the less something weights the higher the in-game price. This has some logic to it, but the other stats feel arbitrary in many cases.)

I still have no idea what determines the Weapon Tier. Considering a realistically cheapo, easy to make practically skill-less labour task is Tier 6. But the two shields that need a lot more skilled labour are tier 4.

 

[Lord Earl]

On the bright side, EA trolls seem to avoid the productive parts of the forum.

To quote a wise man:

The Heavy Nasalhelm over laced cloth has 13 armor. So does a Northern Roughide cap, which has the same armor AND is significantly lighter.

I expect the balance is messed up all over the place. But there's one clear example of the problem here. A spreadsheet could tell you immediately the balance is wrong there, where the price and weight of the cap does not justify its defence.

TW clearly doesn't give a flying F anymore... Based off my find and @flavberg 's excellent post, they really just decided to make item stats random (randomly generated item stats might be more interesting, at this rate).

 

[flavberg]

Thank you for making this thread. I've mentioned this issue so many times within my group and all I ever hear from them is that the game is "EaRlY AcCesS". That doesn't make it suddenly better that Taleworlds didn't even bother balancing armour prices and values before releasing the damn game.

This just goes to show that all these values on armours really don't make any sense. Hell, there's a tournament item that provides 28 body armour as a small cloak with a small metal disk above your chest. You can get around 77 amour if you combine that with the Imperial Scale armour.

I feel that modders and people in the community could fix this quicker than the guys over at Taleworlds. Hell, stores don't even properly work still, not even selling most higher tier armours.

Thank you! I've tried modifying the spitems.xml file, but I soon realized just changing values isn't gonna work since the prices need to be modified also, but I cannot find a price list file anywhere.

 

[Brandis.]

All of the prices and values are highly volatile (presumably) based on local resources to construct them.

I think it's TOO random at the moment and should be changed to be more stable down the line.

 

[blazerules]

I use the "cheat mode" inventory to get base item prices without any modifiers. Maybe the best most balanced way to go about it (but I don't know for sure) since it doesn't change wildly from region to region, but I'd expect these to be more expensive not less.

I suspect that for weapons it may be to encourage smithing, but I don't hate myself nearly enough to use that system.

Considering that wicker shield would be made out of primarily... live branches weaved into well... wicker... I'd imagine yeah sure it'd cost an arm an a leg to find that in the desert. But be worth practically nothing anywhere with a forest.

 

[zMasterofPie]

As for wicker shields they were good, but they weren't this good. This is a material peasant fences were made out of cause its cheap and easy.

Yeah sorry I meant they were good for how cheap they were to make. Good wicker shields were definitely better than a few boards clumsily nailed together. Apparently neither greek Dorata nor Xiphoi could really do much to them at Thermopylae, or so I've heard.

 

[blazerules]

Considering what happens when you attack a shield with a sword I'd believe it.

 

[zMasterofPie]

Well yeah but keep in mind this is literally sticks woven together.

 

[cartonofjuice]

Can't forget the overly op armored bearskin that I've won at tournaments. Its a shoulder armor that provides 28 defense for only being fur and a metal plate - compared to some of the metal lamellar shoulder armors that only provide 9-13 defense. Extremely broken and really easy to get.

 

[flavberg]

Can't forget the overly op armored bearskin that I've won at tournaments. Its a shoulder armor that provides 28 defense for only being fur and a metal plate - compared to some of the metal lamellar shoulder armors that only provide 9-13 defense. Extremely broken and really easy to get.

Never seen that before, but nice catch. I looked for it in the game files and found it, I can confirm it sounds really broken for a cape.

 

[blazerules]

The more I look at the armour the more I get a sneaking suspicion.

What if they aren't balancing armour based on what the armour is, or against other armour. But based on the units that wear the armour? Suddenly the absolute random nonsense makes a little more sense. "X unit is too weak. Just buff the armour a bit."

The bearskin is 28 armour. The next best cape armour is 26. The Brass Lamellar Shoulders. Now I'll admit the Imperial Lamellar shoulders look like they're made of steel, thus logically should provide more armour. But that provides 13 armour. For some ungodly reason. Even soft iron wouldn't be that much worse.

Armoured bearskin looks like it should be one of the lowest tier items there are. Not the literal highest.

The balancing of items and armour based on units is making more and more sense to me. But that's just me convincing myself.

 

[Alloo]

The more I look at the armour the more I get a sneaking suspicion.

What if they aren't balancing armour based on what the armour is, or against other armour. But based on the units that wear the armour? Suddenly the absolute random nonsense makes a little more sense. "X unit is too weak. Just buff the armour a bit."

The bearskin is 28 armour. The next best cape armour is 26. The Brass Lamellar Shoulders. Now I'll admit the Imperial Lamellar shoulders look like they're made of steel, thus logically should provide more armour. But that provides 13 armour. For some ungodly reason. Even soft iron wouldn't be that much worse.

Armoured bearskin looks like it should be one of the lowest tier items there are. Not the literal highest.

The balancing of items and armour based on units is making more and more sense to me. But that's just me convincing myself.

+1 I think you are right, I noticed that some MP units recently got a buff to their armour values.

 

[blazerules]

They've only done MP testing so far, so this makes even more sense. But balancing things for multiplayer and balancing things for single player are different things. There they are just classes but in single player the armour matters more than just equipment of unit x.

But I also don't play multiplayer at all.

 

[flavberg]

I like the new values, they seem way better balanced (e1.0.3), but there are still some questionable ones:

1. Eastern curved boots are less armor than mere wrapped shoes (12 vs 17). They need a buff or wrapped shoes need a nerf.

2. Imperial mail coif is underpowered. It provides the same defence as an imperial leather coif.

3. Eastern plated leather. While its counterpart looks more balanced, this one is still a bit high. I'd make the body armor a bit more than its counterpart due to the metal thing on the chest but keep the armor and leg armor buff since the model does show more protection in those areas. The price is also a bit ridiculous.

4. White/Red Tabard Over Mail. This definitely needs a buff on arm and leg armor, or the hauberks need a nerf. It's the same stats but evidently covers more.

5. Southern Robe With Mail. This also requires more arm and leg armor.

6. Highland Noble Armor. While it appears to protect just as much as the Northern Hauberk in terms of arms and leg, it's extremely low in value in those regards. It needs a buff or the Northern Hauberk needs a nerf in leg and arm armor.

7. Western Mail Shirt. Appearance-wise, it's the same as a hauberk, perhaps a bit better since the chainmail appears to cover slightly more in the groin area. It should have same or slightly better stats.

8. Western Chainmail. 24 defence for the body is completely unfitting for this armor.

9. Highland Scale Mail. This should definitely have more leg armor, if not also some more body armor.

10. Wrapped Shoes. They look poverty attire. They shouldn't be 17, in my opinion, as they provide more defence than actual leather boots.

11. Imperial Gambesons. This needs to be addressed ASAP, there is a huge body armor difference between them for no reason. They should be similar, or even the same body armor, unless the model clearly calls for more defence, but from what I can see, there's nothing to allow such difference.

I will update the main post.