Disccusion about the current position of Infantry

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Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
Well i'd say it's because at some point in videogames realism starts making things worse.
I always avoid looking at realism, and focus on how it would affect gameplay.
Yes exactly. Here is the thing with realism: it sucks to be an Infantry amongst an army of cavalry and archers. With that being said, nobody would like to play Infantry and if we keep going the way we are going then all Infantry mains, including myself, will switch to Cavalry or Archer because its just much more fun. We will have matches of 3 archers and 3 cav vs 3 archers and 3 cav. I am not actually exagarating because I am considering to permanently switch class to Archer or Cavalry because I regularly get F**KED by an archer that I can never catch or a random horseman that stands still in the middle of a melee fight whilst his horse tanks all the damage. Believe me if this doesn't change the Infantry class will become an accesory to the game whilst everyone focuses on archer and cav.

This is why I invite everyone to post constructive feedback so there is a slight chance the developers might consider implementing any of these
 

hoonii

Sergeant at Arms
We will have matches of 3 archers and 3 cav vs 3 archers and 3 cav
That's what'll happen in BEAST if class restriction gets denied %100, this is the reason people want class restriction lol.
Infantry needs to be much faster on foot imo.
 
I can only talk about captain mode as I did not play a game of skirmish mode yet and a castle game did not happen to me yet but the OP is about position of INF in the game. In my experienced games the most problems came from CAV and this troop type survived until the end of match. From my perspective it is archers that die quickest with less kills than deaths, but I have no access to other numbers. Spear INF with shields survives longest in games I have perceived unless they are doing a zerg rush with all light INF (no fun either).

- In my opinion, there should be a difference in capping/uncapping time for flags. It should be worst for CAV which reaches them very quickly forcing them to be a sitting duck for a longer time. If you want an objective taken, send in the footsloggers with shields (and if you want it held, then give them spears)
So for cap time I suggest INF>>ARC>CAV
They should be able to cap a flag from a bit farther away. Being on the flag is right on a silver platter most times. Give INF the possibility to use surrounding terrain while defending an objective. (give class inherent area of influence)

- the weapon type spear should be reworked. A spear is used for thrusting offensively, but this takes practice and the spear is mostly underrun (facehugging problem). A speartip pointed at your direction should be a damaging obstacle. Maybe the couching mechanism should work automatically on spears even if on foot? So the job of a spear formation is take ground and point the pointy end at the threat and if it runs into the spear it will get piercing damage in relation of relative speed and knocked back. You could now make a "pikewall" to defend versus charging horses or run through other troop types slowly (shield wall formation speed). So it will result in 'ouch' damage for INF trying to break through the wall and deadly for horses charging into a spear wall (by their own speed). In my opinion, the spear should be 2-handed for this kind of maneuver or we limit it to long spears only, but not all polearms. Generally, more spear damage versus horses (all spear types)

- Javelins/Throwing Axes are sidearms for some skirmishing Infantry or even main weapon for light troops like Imperial Recruits. This kind of infantry is nearly useless currently. The damage output is far too low and the forcefield of shields too big. I suggest in that regard a higher damage output of a thrown weapon and a granular forcefield blocking the damage where the shield is and doing damage reduction where it is not becoming weaker towards the borders of the force field.

- Shield infantry works well in regards of aligning the shields. Cav should be shielded on one side, but open on the weapon's side thus having the need to maneuver when attacked with projectiles. CAV should not be able to do with a shield, what INF can do (unless it is a small one like a targe) and should also not have a forcefield. High speed + extra HP from horse AND a shield should be enough protection. So INF could have the distinct advantage of having a forcefield versus projectiles at all (class inherent bonus). Any other class could pick up a shield but get no forcefield that extends over the shields measures.

- Horses should more react to damage even to the point of throwing off the rider and running away. Same for collision with map objects like trees. I find it rather disturbing that ANY kind of INF including archers can walk in a wood and CAV still being able to couch-lance or spear the footmen at slow to medium speed and if they hit a tree, then nothing really happens like rearing once maybe, but that is all. Ride recklessly and fall from the horse it should be. Some places should be no-go-areas for mounted troops.

- Heavy archers (Guards/Sharpshooters/Fianns) should be a bit slower - at least to the point that light to medium INF can outrun them and catch them, if they get too close and mismaneuver themselves.

- limit the 'whirling death' troop types i.e. anything with a 2H-axe or polearm a bit. They should not be able to do, what they do now and even are frustrating even IF you have a shield as one swing of a bardike or glaive or menavliaton one-shots you. If they miss, they should continue rotating (impulse) and taking counter-direction after a swing with one of these should come with less speed (-50%?). That way, INF would not be dismantled in such kind of living food processor like guards, berserkers or menaviliatons. IMO, their main use is "smash and destroy shields" and then have range advantage over unguarded foe. Reducing the damage is the wrong way in my book, as I would like to reward precision, but spamming swing attacks with two-handed weapons versus everything feels wrong and not wanted.

- set friendly fire to 100% and make it 125% versus horses so hurling stuff into own CAV fighting things is dangerous.

Well...this is most, what I can think about now in short - hope it is constructive enough.
 
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Preventing Cav from taking heavy shields also feels wrong. Take a look - these look authentical. But as we can see, they only cover one side while the other is open and I cannot imagine turning my torso on the horse while carrying such a thing.

Right.. Those cav have heavy shields and no armor on a horse. So a single arrow should make hose fall dead?
Or should a pillum make ANY shield it hits useless and dropped straight away.

How about we stop playing for flags in skirmish and captain cuz what sense does that make ?

Horses should totally panic like mad when there is a camel next to them

When you fall of a horse high speed you should get a paralysis

It should take 5 seconds to switch weapons

You shouldn't be able to sheathe long weapons instead you should drop them on the ground so you'd use a shorter one

Horse hitting a wall at high speed should catapult you into the air breaking your bones instead of getting reared

blah blah blah u get the point.

I hope you drop this silly realism stuff. Could be nice for some SP game. Not MP

DEADLY pointy object

Indeed


And this is more about skirmish.
Sadly now captain and skirmish are tied to each other with every update.

Eventually those two need to be seperated.
But currently i think this therad here is about skirmish not captain.
 
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And this is more about skirmish.
Sadly now captain and skirmish are tied to each other with every update.

Eventually those two need to be seperated.
But currently i think this thread here is about skirmish not captain.

What about splitting this thread then into:
- Standing of INF in SKIRMISH and
- Standing of INF in CAPTAIN

I guess some points apply to both modes or are still valid for the other to just disregard completely. Also, it is less confusing.

I apologize, that I have not noticed earlier and mistook the discussion for covering BOTH modes.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I'm getting kind of sick of seeing every thread eventually coming to the same conclusion "Captain and Skirmish needs balanced seperately" yet there doesn't seem to ever be a dev reply signalling their intentions.
 

Brandis.

Subforum Moderator
I'm getting kind of sick of seeing every thread eventually coming to the same conclusion "Captain and Skirmish needs balanced seperately" yet there doesn't seem to ever be a dev reply signalling their intentions.

By their lack of response, I'm guessing it's hard coded or something equally ridiculous.

The class system was introduced (in-part) to make balancing easier, but TW subverted this by attempting to balance 4+ modes on the same classes.

Regardless, this is clearly a Skirmish thread and I don't see why Captain needs to be discussed here. Captain infantry aren't even a significant balance problem at the moment.
 
By their lack of response, I'm guessing it's hard coded or something equally ridiculous.

The class system was introduced (in-part) to make balancing easier, but TW subverted this by attempting to balance 4+ modes on the same classes.

Regardless, this is clearly a Skirmish thread and I don't see why Captain needs to be discussed here. Captain infantry aren't even a significant balance problem at the moment.

Big red flag person saying this, VERY NIIIICEEE.
But seriously. If it is UNFIXABLE/ UNCHANGABLE we're doomed
I have my doubts, but i'd like to know what the official response would be for this
 

Einarcf

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Big red flag person saying this, VERY NIIIICEEE.
But seriously. If it is UNFIXABLE/ UNCHANGABLE we're doomed
I have my doubts, but i'd like to know what the official response would be for this
I am sure some talented modders will fix it or find an acceptable workaround. But then we end up splitting the playerbase, as we gate it around a mod.
 

Brandis.

Subforum Moderator
Big red flag person saying this, VERY NIIIICEEE.
But seriously. If it is UNFIXABLE/ UNCHANGABLE we're doomed
I have my doubts, but i'd like to know what the official response would be for this

I'm a subforum moderator and not associated with TW.

I am sure some talented modders will fix it or find an acceptable workaround. But then we end up splitting the playerbase, as we gate it around a mod.

Yeah, TW needs to figure out an effective balance and patch model by full release. I'd rather not end up splitting the community between something crazy like: "BL but warband" "CRPG" "full realism" "better duel" "battle but respawns" "siege but balanced" and other variations with people preferring earlier versions of community balance to later, ect.

A dedicated dev team that maintains and improves official matchmaking is in theory better than community servers, especially for things like ranked, but who knows.
 
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I'm a subforum moderator and not associated with TW.
All i said is that u have a big red flag :grin:

And mods will be super tempting. So hopefully when they come around also a LOT of player will so no gamemode will suffer too greatly.|
Tbh. Right now if a decent mod that i like would come out( And function properly) i'd just go to it and never look back on native ( at least in this state)
And i'm sure i'm not the only one.
But i hope that native will be better by the time that happens, at least for competative


I am sure some talented modders will fix it or find an acceptable workaround. But then we end up splitting the playerbase, as we gate it around a mod.

And that's the thing. It shouldn't happen because of a talented modder. I don't know long much longer TW plans to keep the game in EA.
I'm sure by that time SP will be great, i'm just worried if they will alocate enough resources to MP to actually make it viable long-term so it doesn't get dwarfed by plenty of great MP mods that are inevitably comming out.
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
Well let's for a moment suppose that TW was to revert the class system back to the oldschool Warband free equipment selection method. What you need is all the equipment, weapons are already all there, horses, and armour that is already made as well. You need a proper gold price for each weapon, set of armour, horse, etc. and thats about it, right?

I am just afraid that TW have already invested too many resources into a failing class system that they don't want to go back now..
 

Mushbeast

Knight
I wish heavy infantry were really 'heavy' and an elite unit that you'd save up for rather than it being the base-line infantry unit for most factions. It would've been heaps cooler if each faction had a medium-infantry that filled that role, and heavy had proper tough armour but weren't as easy to afford and common. I don't expect the developers to add in or change the existing classes at this stage though.
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
I wish heavy infantry were really 'heavy' and an elite unit that you'd save up for rather than it being the base-line infantry unit for most factions. It would've been heaps cooler if each faction had a medium-infantry that filled that role, and heavy had proper tough armour but weren't as easy to afford and common. I don't expect the developers to add in or change the existing classes at this stage though.
Yes Precisely. A medium Infantry that is basically the same as heavy inf but just less armour. The problem with the ''medium inf'' at this moment is that they are not really inf in most cases, they are more like skirmishers or 2h whatever.
 
Well let's for a moment suppose that TW was to revert the class system back to the oldschool Warband free equipment selection method. What you need is all the equipment, weapons are already all there, horses, and armour that is already made as well. You need a proper gold price for each weapon, set of armour, horse, etc. and thats about it, right?

I am just afraid that TW have already invested too many resources into a failing class system that they don't want to go back now..
Removing the class system will not change that throwables are useless and spears are useless against cav and mobility of horses is overtuned.
 

Firunien

Grandmaster Knight
Removing the class system will not change that throwables are useless and spears are useless against cav and mobility of horses is overtuned.
Well you didnt play Warband much so i explain how the balance worked there more or less without the peasant to knight class system. You have 1000g, if you go cav you pay 800 for the horse and the rest for light armour, infantry can spend 1000g on armour and good weapons. Balancing is done, but its removes the new main cornerstone of M&B franchise : "peasants on the same field as knights".
 
Well you didnt play Warband much so i explain how the balance worked there more or less without the peasant to knight class system. You have 1000g, if you go cav you pay 800 for the horse and the rest for light armour, infantry can spend 1000g on armour and good weapons. Balancing is done, but its removes the new main cornerstone of M&B franchise : "peasants on the same field as knights".
But if you say that heavy cav was known for having a heavy horse and light armor you could give the knight class light armor and it would be close together.
The main difference between WB and BL Cav is the insane mobility of horses with WW and SS plus insane survivabilty against Inf.
 

Firunien

Grandmaster Knight
But if you say that heavy cav was known for having a heavy horse and light armor you could give the knight class light armor and it would be close together.
The main difference between WB and BL Cav is the insane mobility of horses with WW and SS plus insane survivabilty against Inf.
The 800 gold was for a good horse, no armour for the horse, it went down pretty fast.
There was no heavy cav, thats the whole point, nor any other heavy class (one could argue about swadia chainmail build). The games tended to steamroll quite a bit because you upgraded gear, the big downside of the old system, but most of the time its light and medium troops.
Taking a knights armour.. well just remove the whole thing then, a knight with light armour is just a joke. Balancing wise fine, but whats the new class system for if not having heavy and light troops together.
 
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