Crossbow or Bow?

[humility925]

Add crossbow to vigor so that there's an actual reason to pick crossbow over bows, having bow and crossbow on the same attribute group means why pick crossbows when you could be using bows

That's would make Vigor more overpower than control one, beside control forced on range while Vigor forced on melee.

I found myself that light crossbow is petty good for headshot in early of game, one hit headshot, while bow do not one hit headshot, till you get better bow, Noble bow, you able to kill one hit any of body part, no need to do headshot at all, while crossbow even highest best crossbow don't do one hit kill on any body part other than headshot. I tested put 5 forced, 330 skill crossbow, and still don't do anything one hit shot on any body part other than headshot so it's wasted to put forced in crossbow, while bow with 5 forced are far useful, you can quicker kill any bandit in one hit, even it's not headshot, next to next so fast you able to kill bandit with noble bow.

So if you don't want put forced to improve skill into control, crossbow is better, but if you want be very deadly range warrior, one hit shot, on any body, no matter how good armors is, then bow with noble bow. Bow had 32 arrow ammo while crossbow only had 18 to 20 without perks.

Early bow might had to do 2 time to do headshot while crossbow only one time headshot, so crossbow better for no or low skill, Now for high skill, bow is better, had 32 ammo more than crossbow and had ability to do one hit on any bodypart, no need to had headshot, you could take out 32 enemies even they had armors. so Bow is every better than crossbow, so invest in max 5 forced on bow is not go waste, while crossbow 5 forced might waste, because damage do not go up and even with best crossbow, you still don't get to one hit shot on any bodypart other than headshot, and limited ammo than bow.

So in long term, for player, bow is best, not crossbow, unless you want to save your forced level to other skill, then crossbow will help with you, you don't need put forced in crossbow, all it's do is reload little faster, and little aim better, but not worth to put point.

Bow in 5 forced is worthy, not worth it to put even one forced in crossbow, it's make no different other than buff your army crossbow man during live battle when you are captian of that crossbow army if that your thing, only thing it's just reload faster, but not make more damage, and not even one hit shot on any body part, beside head.

5 forced in bow is great, while if no skill in bow, then crossbow is better but don't waste forced in crossbow, it's make no different other than speed reload and buff of your army crossbow (Might bug, your crossbow men might not get buff for some reason?).

What I try to said, if you don't want waste 5 forced point and even stats on control, then crossbow (don't even put in 5 into, it's just small faster reload, little better arm but not had one shot hit on any body part at all, even best crossbow with 330 skill max) so you can use those 5 forced and stats to somewhere more important like leadership, steward, smithing, ect. But if you want to be deadly at range, then invest 5 forced max in bow and 3 control stats min and grab that noble bow at least, (any weaker bow are not always one hit on any body part, not always, depend on armors)

 

[CptMuppet]

For personal use for heroes with maxed out Bow/Crossbow skill, bow is better than crossbow, because:

• Noble Bow have roughly the same damage as Bound Crossbow, and Noble Long Bow have quite significanly higher damage.
• With those bows you can shoot 50-70% faster than with Bound Crossbow.
• You can have 50-70% more arrows than bolts in your equpiment.
• With bows you can shoot behind you while riding a horse, and with crossbows you can't, and generally using a crossbow on horsback is quite painfull expierience.

From party leader and captain perspective is hard to tell for me, because I didn't have proper crossbowmen party playthrough yet. However after many hours in vanilla game, I have general idea how it might go.
I think that bows are generally the way to go for this too. Crossbow perks might be a little bit better, but you can get much better troops with bows, both ranged infantry and ranged cavalry.
For lower tier troops and probably also for some tactics (crossbowmen can have shields, so it might give you advantage), investing in Crossbow skill might be better idea though.

I have always been a bow person until 1 week ago. I tried crossbow and love it. The skill gains early on blow the bow away. For me though, the crossbow is much better short to mid range, 50m or less, but I feel more accurate long range with a bow, but a cross bow with the right perks can 1 shot, headshot anyone an I am sure later with higher skill and Best crossbow I would think you could 1 shot anyone with just a normal hit. I am still learning it but crossbow for me

I have done some tests and I have dissapointing info (maybe not that much) for you about one-shot-body-kills.

Game version used - beta e1.7.1.

Items used:

• Noble Bow
• Noble Long Bow
• Bound Crossbow
• Stacked Steppe Arrows (2 pierce damage)
• Large Bag of Bolts (2 pierce damage)

Skills and Perks used:

• 330 Bow and Crossbow skillIs,
• picked all perks with damage and armor penetration for both skill trees,
• picked "Horse Archer" perk in riding which increases ranged damage by 10% while on horseback,
• picked "Mounted Crossbowmen", so I was able to use Bound Crossbow on horseback,
• no "Horse Master", so I wasn't able to use Noble Long Bow on horseback,

Troops used:

• Imperial Trained Infantryman (tier 3, 27 body armor)
• Imperial Veteran Infantryman (tier 4, 38 body armor)
• Imperial Legionary (tier 5, 61 body armor)

Additional info:

• I were shooting troops at abdoment and chest,
• Troops and my character were always standing still,
• Troops didn't have any captain/party leader boosts to armor and health points.

The results of my tests:

• You can one-shot-body-kill a Legionary with:
  • Noble Bow and Bound Crossbow on foot from up to 3 meters,
  • Noble Bow and Bound Crossbow on horseback it's quite inconsistant - from up to 8 meters you have very good chance to do that, but if you are lucky, you can do that from up to 20 meters,
  • Noble Long Bow on foot from up to 35 meters.
• You can one-shot-body-kill a Veteran Infantryman with:
  • Noble Bow and Boud Crossbow on foot and on horseback from up to 40 meters,
  • Noble Long Bow on foot from up to 60 meters.
• You can one-shot-body-kill a Trained Infantryman with:
  • Noble Bow and Bound Crossbow on foot and on horseback from up to 60 meters,
  • Noble Long Bow on foot from up to 80 meters.

These imperial troops have quite high body armor, so killing most of the units in the game from the same tiers would be slighlty easier or roughly as hard in the worst case scenario. Shooting at shoulders should give the same result, but shooting at hands and legs might make killing troops slightly harder.

 

[humility925]

I do not had that experience with Bound crossbow (with 4 pierce damage, I believe) with 330 perk that one shot kill on any body part, troop still standing, meanwhile I do had experience with noble bow with 330 and (again 4 pierce damage with more ammo than crossbow) ability one shot kill on any body part.

I can only do one head shot with bound crossbow, just like light crossbow, it's make no different light crossbow or bound crossbow, only thing you only need fewer ammo to kill any bodypart with bound crossbow, I think it's take 3 or 4 for light crossbow if no headshot, while bound crossbow only take 2 or 3. Noble Bow only need one, 99% of time.

Problem is that crossbow skill, 330, 5 skill forced do not make more damage to point able to do one shot kill on any bodypart beside headshot, it's just mere faster reload and better accuracy is why I suggest that if not playing bow, then crossbow without investing skill forced in crossbow as it's make no different when come to damage, one shot kill on any body part.

Please note, I recall I using bound crossbow on horse, on looter, and looter still running at me after I shot on body part (I am not interested in headspot as I knew it's worked, but test out on body part), it's just worthless to had bound crossbow, it's do not get one hitshot even on looter with 330 skill, good perk choice, 5 forced max, all for that? Noble bow with 5 forced, I can even bring down in duel in bandit camp without using melee!!! You can't do that in crossbow even faster reload.

It's worthless to put in crossbow 5 forced other than buff your army crossbow (I think bug, not working?) Crossbow is still useful for those who didn't invest in bow and crossbow skill even. It's not waste to invest in bow, but it's waste invest crossbow as if one want or wish to one hitshot with crossbow on any bodypart, but no, it's do not gave you more damage when invest in crossbow skill at all.

Bow in high skill is every better than crossbow for all kind. Crossbow is only useful for noobs, and those who want to save level point, not want to invest in any weapon at all, that is only time light crossbow is useful as long player able to aim headshot every time.

Only thing that is good in crossbow perk is 50% off wage for t4 crossbow troops but rest of buff crossbow troop may bug or not working) Crossbow is more for buff army of crossbow than personal, I guess.

 

[CptMuppet]

I do not had that experience with Bound crossbow (with 4 pierce damage, I believe) with 330 perk that one shot kill on any body part, troop still standing, meanwhile I do had experience with noble bow with 330 and (again 4 pierce damage with more ammo than crossbow) ability one shot kill on any body part.

I can only do one head shot with bound crossbow, just like light crossbow, it's make no different light crossbow or bound crossbow, only thing you only need fewer ammo to kill any bodypart with bound crossbow, I think it's take 3 or 4 for light crossbow if no headshot, while bound crossbow only take 2 or 3. Noble Bow only need one, 99% of time.

Problem is that crossbow skill, 330, 5 skill forced do not make more damage to point able to do one shot kill on any bodypart beside headshot, it's just mere faster reload and better accuracy is why I suggest that if not playing bow, then crossbow without investing skill forced in crossbow as it's make no different when come to damage, one shot kill on any body part.

Please note, I recall I using bound crossbow on horse, on looter, and looter still running at me after I shot on body part (I am not interested in headspot as I knew it's worked, but test out on body part), it's just worthless to had bound crossbow, it's do not get one hitshot even on looter with 330 skill, good perk choice, 5 forced max, all for that? Noble bow with 5 forced, I can even bring down in duel in bandit camp without using melee!!! You can't do that in crossbow even faster reload.

What you have wrote here is just not true.

With 330 skill in both bows and crossbows, Noble Bow and Bound Crossbow do basically the same damage if you shoot at the same troop type from the same distance. And they both on-shot-kill looters by hitting them at any body part from the reasonable distance, and they even kill tier 4 infantry in the same way if you shoot from closer distances.

Here's a video proving it which I just recorded in beta e1.7.1:



Edit: What You have wrote might be true for version e1.5.0 and the older ones, because back then last perks for bows and crossbows weren't implemented yet, and basic skill effects were working, so back then bows were getting boost to damage from skill alone, and crossbows were not.

 

[humility925]

I'm playing version 1.7.0, I did tested out myself, personal experience so I do speak truth about that matter from my experience. I find noble bow is much better able to one hit on any body part, while bound crossbow do not, on same enemies on looter. in same reasonable distance on horseback riding and as footman as well. Sorry bow in high skill is way better than crossbow in high skill. but I guess they might buff bound crossbow for some reason in beta, I don't play beta version.

I guess they might buff bound crossbow or fix bug that block bound crossbow damage or something like that in beta version, but I did tested in 1.7.0 and bound cross do not do one hit on looter at all, mostly it's take 2 or 3 for some reason due bad speed or something like that.. I'm very disappointed after invested 5 forced in crossbow and skill 330.

I guess our experience is not same but you did said beta and I don't play beta, but currently version, 1.7.0, maybe I got bug on my part for bound crossbow, lower damage for unknow reason.
I do not use mod, other than export and import mod, and not always mod turn on, it's mostly off.

 

[CptMuppet]

I'm playing version 1.7.0, I did tested out myself, personal experience so I do speak truth about that matter from my experience. I find noble bow is much better able to one hit on any body part, while bound crossbow do not, on same enemies on looter. in same reasonable distance on horseback riding and as footman as well. Sorry bow in high skill is way better than crossbow in high skill. but I guess they might buff bound crossbow for some reason in beta, I don't play beta version.

I guess they might buff bound crossbow or fix bug that block bound crossbow damage or something like that in beta version, but I did tested in 1.7.0 and bound cross do not do one hit on looter at all, mostly it's take 2 or 3 for some reason due bad speed or something like that.. I'm very disappointed after invested 5 forced in crossbow and skill 330.

I guess our experience is not same but you did said beta and I don't play beta, but currently version, 1.7.0, maybe I got bug on my part for bound crossbow, lower damage for unknow reason.
I do not use mod, other than export and import mod, and not always mod turn on, it's mostly off.

I just rolled back to vanilla main e1.7.0 and tested the damage in exact same way on same save as before in vanilla beta e1.7.1 (the save is from e1.7.0), and I get the same results as before - Noble Bow deals the same damage as Bound Crossbow, only Noble Long Bow deals more damage.

Edit: Is this mod updated to e1.7.0 version of the game? I have only found "Character export import" mod for game version e1.4.0, and similar mod named "Character manager" for version e1.7.0. Could you tell which mod do you use?

 

[humility925]

It's "Character manager", v3.0.2.301499. Odd, it's was e1.7.0.29 or something like that, but now it's 1.7.0.301499, seem number changed in secret. I am petty sure there was tested bow/crossbow, and I launch game, it's was 1.7.0.2, I remember 2, but number changed, but nothing change main number 1.7.0 but beyond that, see number had been changed couple week ago. It's might my memoires fool me.

 

[CptMuppet]

It's "Character manager", v3.0.2.301499. Odd, it's was e1.7.0.29 or something like that, but now it's 1.7.0.301499, seem number changed in secret. I am petty sure there was tested bow/crossbow, and I launch game, it's was 1.7.0.2, I remember 2, but number changed, but nothing change main number 1.7.0 but beyond that, see number had been changed couple week ago. It's might my memoires fool me.

This number change is probably just because of some new hotfix.
Was your character with high bow and crossbow skill imported from some older version of the game or imported/exported through many version of the game? I'm asking, because I'm thinking about testing this mod myself to check whether it can cause a problem with perks or not.

 

[humility925]

Hard to said, but main is same 1.7.0 but rest of that number had been changed. I had no way to tell. I do use export and import to edit character to test it, I make sure reasonable what of required to get 330 or 300. 10 stats, and 5 forced, then I am edit 330, not more than that with reasonable then I was testing to see whatever investing skill is worth it or not in long term, at that time, using noble bow (80 base damage, not longbow 95 damage based, bound crossbow 100 damage based) I thought and believe bound bow should able to one shot hit yet at that time but it's didn't one hit shot on looter at a time, but I wonder at a time what or how many looter had health point, how many health point do they normal had? Do I fighting looter with buff health point? Hard to said. Maybe all not had same health point buff? Do all had same health point or not? I had not know that answer.

I just use import and export same main number 1.7.0 but rest number I don't know, I wasn't aware it's changed number with hotfix.

I thought looter had 100 health point, but I pick markman, and not use first bottom perk to for vs armor under 20 point. I thought crossbow should be good at vs armor anyway, so no need to pick that perk.

I might had to look at, maybe crossbow need perk that help damage (I don't see that, only bow had damage more on skill and perk)
I had to double check with perk that help crossbow one hit shot, but crossbow, 330 skill don't help with one hit shot, while bow skill do due more damage but maybe it's crossbow perk that might help one shot hit (not one headshot perk, not need that, and you can one hit shot headshot without that perk already!)

 

[kweassa]

Crossbows have faster initial payoff, but drops lower in efficiency after about 150 skill. Bows start out slower, most often struggling from inferior equipment initially, but catches up with the crossbow rapidly once you start using stuff like steppe warbows or noble-type bows, and then fully surpasses the crossbow in about the latter half of skill progression.

So, if you're going to really focus on ranged weapons with multiple focus points and attribute points, then obviously the bow is much more useful. But if you want to just invest a limited amount of time, effort, and money and still have access to meaningful levels of ranged attacks, the crossbow is the "economy choice."

 

[CptMuppet]

I do use export and import to edit character to test it, I make sure reasonable what of required to get 330 or 300.

Ah ok, so just stat editing. Thanks for all the info. I'll test the mod later and if I find some bug/strange behaviour I'll share it here.

I thought looter had 100 health point, but I pick markman, and not use first bottom perk to for vs armor under 20 point. I thought crossbow should be good at vs armor anyway, so no need to pick that perk.

I haven't use this perk either, it doesn't seem to be useful if you maxing out crossbow skill.

Generally my suspicion is that the mod might be breaking some last crossbow perk (and maybe some other perks) which would make Bound Crossbow unable to kill a looter in one shot to the body, but I might be totally wrong. I'll test it out and maybe I'll found out what's going on.

 

[humility925]

Crossbows have faster initial payoff, but drops lower in efficiency after about 150 skill. Bows start out slower, most often struggling from inferior equipment initially, but catches up with the crossbow rapidly once you start using stuff like steppe warbows or noble-type bows, and then fully surpasses the crossbow in about the latter half of skill progression.

So, if you're going to really focus on ranged weapons with multiple focus points and attribute points, then obviously the bow is much more useful. But if you want to just invest a limited amount of time, effort, and money and still have access to meaningful levels of ranged attacks, the crossbow is the "economy choice."

I agree.

Ok, here what I find and understand, crossbow might get better with perk, I guess, Piercer might help for less than 20 point armors, but I prefer Markman to aim quicker, since crossbow is slow, it's help when you are on foot.
Sheriff help with 50% damage on headshot, but I prefer Donkey Swifiness as I'm on horse sometime, and help your army crossbow better at crossbow, but I wonder if not working, and I had no issues headshot without that perk.

Flectcher vs Puncture, now that is hard choice, maybe that's why sometime you don't do one shot hit due if you pick flectcher due enemies had high health point and armor? I don't know.
I'm not sure deft hands is useful one.

 

[humility925]

Ah ok, so just stat editing. Thanks for all the info. I'll test the mod later and if I find some bug/strange behaviour I'll share it here.


I haven't use this perk either, it doesn't seem to be useful if you maxing out crossbow skill.

Generally my suspicion is that the mod might be breaking some last crossbow perk (and maybe some other perks) which would make Bound Crossbow unable to kill a looter in one shot to the body, but I might be totally wrong. I'll test it out and maybe I'll found out what's going on.

Ok, Thank you for hard work testing. I guess it's linked what choice of perk rather than skill itself? And enemies' health point and armors as well.

Bow is better deal when one invest range forced, but crossbow is good deal when not invest any range forced, even crossbow. it's Go home or go Big. So crossbow is not good deal when invest forced, and it's more for army crossbow buff more than personal stuff?

 

[CptMuppet]

Ok, Thank you for hard work testing. I guess it's linked what choice of perk rather than skill itself? And enemies' health point and armors as well.

Have you picked the last perks for bow and crossbow in your tests or not? The perk for bows is named "Deadshot" and the one for crossbows is named "Mighty Pull".

Btw, I have tested the newest version of "Character Manager" mod and I didn't have any problems with bow and crossbow perks - they are working correctly.

 

[humility925]

Yes, it's only one perk, no two perk choice, and it's didn't one hit kill on bodypart at that time, but sometime it's do, and sometime it's don't. strange. I'm not sure every unit even same type unit had same health point or something like that. they could had 99% health loss and still stand, to cost one more ammo to do it to make up. I had no way to tell enemies health point and armor in the details, as I think not every enemies units had same stats?