Could glaive/naginatas be "swung" from horseback?

cremo

Sergeant
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Hi all guys..

I am modding a bit native, and i was thinking of creating a new type of weapon:

a polearm swingable from your steed







i am asking you guys because i would like to know if such a weapon ever existed or at least "could have existed".

What i had in mind was some sort of scythe which could be used for couching as well as for "swinging" like it was a 2h weapon..


I don't think that gameplay wise it would be overpowered since I would give that weapon a "short" reach (140ish? considering there are 130 sword of wars which could be swinged seems reasonable) and a limited swing damage compared to a real 2h weapon (and of course no shield)..

So it would be a sort of mix between a 2h/polearm, with the ability to couch (but with a short reach), and the ability to swing (a bit farther than a 2h, but far less damaging)..
just by the looks of them.. a glaive or a naginata would be what i had in mind.. now question is, can they be "swinged" from horseback?

What I would like to know it's just if it would be possible.. or such long shafted weapon would be impossible to "swing" even without a shield..

I tried with a shovel at home (but i have no horse to try :razz:) and it seemed really clumsy if i tried to hold the shovel from the end.. yet if i took it more near the middle (something like in the screens above) it was pretty swingable.. and i've notived that I could easilly hold it not only using my hand but also my forearm  making it really handy.. yet - differently from those in-game pics - i found it more natural to keep the back of the shaft BEHIND my back and not ni front of me..

so.. what you think?

Adding that stuff to my mod would be as realistic as adding lightsabers or it is something realistic (or, even better, something that was real).

thanks for the attention :smile:
 

Mad Skillz

Baron
WBM&BVC
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it would be physically possible, but pretty weak, is my guess. if you held it right at the back it might get enough momentum to kill someone standing still with little to no protection, but I think the stab is prett much the only effective attack from horseback.

and change your title to "swung" instead of "swinged".
 

GraaEminense

Squire
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Remember that the differentiation between polearms and other weapons in M&B is wholly artificial and is only a result of the need to cathegorize stuff for game mechanics. Modding in swingable, couchable weapons would not be unrealistic, in my opinion.

Anything can be swung one- or two-handed, but with varying degrees of effectiveness and control of course.

A moderately long polearm should be able to be swung from horseback if used two-handed. Two hands because, as with other large weapons (though this is not shown in M&B animations), you'd want to use the off-hand to adjust length, to steady and give extra speed while the right hand guides the weapon -much like they're shown on foot.

Less practical than when used on foot though -serious speed reduction would be suitable.

 

Togakure

Master Knight
M&B
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IIRC, some Ikko Ikki monks rode horses and used nagimaki, which are essentially naginata with shorter hafts.  The new Shortened Military Scythe is much like a nagimaki.  Googling it is sure to yield images.
 

Merentha

Baron
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I'd read similar things.  If you don't get good images, try the 'nagamaki' spelling as well. 
 

Merlkir

I recall a great video of a guy chopping melons in half with a naginata held with both hand on horseback. Looked cool actually.
 

GraaEminense

Squire
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uncreative said:
Is there any historic European equivalent to the shortened military scythe in M&B?
Indeed, there's the Maciejowski choppa pictured in the centre:



I love that weapon. Probably not all that good in reality, but it looks really nasty.
 

Zilberfrid

Sergeant Knight
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I love that weapon. Probably not all that good in reality, but it looks really nasty.
And it looks so cute, I wanna hug it and take it to bed to cuddle in the night...
 

doorknobdeity

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNW
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GraaEminense said:
uncreative said:
Is there any historic European equivalent to the shortened military scythe in M&B?
Indeed, there's the Maciejowski choppa pictured in the centre:



I love that weapon. Probably not all that good in reality, but it looks really nasty.
I love that thing. Love it love it love it. I wish that there were horseback two-handed animations just because because of that picture.
 

CrazyEyes

Knight at Arms
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Isn't that labeled as a falx, or something similar?

Graa, but if we implement this feature of swinging polearms not meant to be swung from horseback, it will just add frustration, as you might want to make a stab at a critical moment and - oh ****! I'm swinging instead! Oh well, I just got lanced in the chest.
 

GraaEminense

Squire
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CrazyEyes said:
Isn't that labeled as a falx, or something similar?

Graa, but if we implement this feature of swinging polearms not meant to be swung from horseback, it will just add frustration, as you might want to make a stab at a critical moment and - oh ****! I'm swinging instead! Oh well, I just got lanced in the chest.
Weapons terminology tends to be a bit wacky, but to my knowledge a falx is supposed to curve like a sickle or scythe. This one does not. For the same reason, it's not a 'shortened military scythe' -it curves the wrong way. Looks like a shortened glaive to me -the head is identical to the Maciejowski glaive heads, if a bit bigger, and with a very short shaft. It probably has a fancy name somewhere, but that I don't know.


Implementing the feature of swinging polearms not meant to be swung from horseback would definitely add some frustration as you end up making the wrong attack and strike with lower speed/damage than planned. However, it would open up new options -ride-by-slash with very long range that is easier to hit with than a thrust and doesn't require you to risk your horse would make mounted polearms far more attractive to me, at least.
The trade-off would be more options against having to learn to attack from the angle -but that's pretty important already, so it's not too high a price in my opinion. Perhaps a compromise would be in order -making the very largest polearms (pikes and lances) thrust only, as they would really not be suitable for slashing, and give the player the option of not having to worry.

The biggest problem with implementing this, however, would be that the AI simply isn't very bright when choosing attack mode. Mounted polearms would become far less of a threat if there's a 50% chance the AI chooses to swipe at you for 9b/speed75 rather than stab for 25p/speed100.
 

CrazyEyes

Knight at Arms
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I am very satisfied when using polearms on horseback. I don't usually use the great lance, however, just the heavy lance. Rarely do I ever couch with it - much too risky with an unarmored horse.
 

Merlkir

Found something similar to SMS in the Romance of Alexander. Looks more falchiony though..



Weapons terminology tends to be a bit wacky, but to my knowledge a falx is supposed to curve like a sickle or scythe. This one does not. For the same reason, it's not a 'shortened military scythe' -it curves the wrong way. Looks like a shortened glaive to me -the head is identical to the Maciejowski glaive heads, if a bit bigger, and with a very short shaft. It probably has a fancy name somewhere, but that I don't know.
I've actually read that it was called a rhomphaia. But then, the byzantines called many things a rhomphaia, including spears and axes. It means long sword though. (and originally it was a longer brother of the dacian falx.)
 

doorknobdeity

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNW
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An update to this ancient topic:
In the Medieval Warfare Sourcebook: Christian Europe and its Neighbors, there is one interesting picture displaying two cavalrymen with glaive-like weapons fighting on horseback. The caption:

"Chinese or Chinese-style Central Asian cavalrymen, in a Perso-Transoxianan manuscript, late 14th-early 15th centuries . . . The soldiers are equipped in a Chinese manner and wield the massive double-ended staff weapons used by both cavalry and infantry in late medieval Chinese armies."

The weapons in questions look like glaives with very long big curved blades, with a spearpoint on the opposite side.
 

doorknobdeity

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNW
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Merlkir said:
I've actually read that it was called a rhomphaia. But then, the byzantines called many things a rhomphaia, including spears and axes. It means long sword though. (and originally it was a longer brother of the dacian falx.)
For real? In the Penguin Classics edition of Michael Psellos' history, a rhomphaia is defined as a curved iron sword, and supposedly referred to the Varangian Guard, though this wasn't always clear. Since the Guard were supposedly famous for wielding axes (even to contemporaries), I guess your explanation makes sense, but that sort of things makes me sooo angry.
 

Merlkir

yeah, I've read a theory that the varangian axes (now so popular and rarely disputed) are a mistranslation also.