Combat complaints in Warband/Suggestions for Bannerlord

[Guppy]

Instead of just objecting a guy who brings new input to this forum (especially other than lists or salt), let's add some more things that should be different in Bannerlord!

Javelins - i feel like they should be more efficient... maybe with less javs per package though. Like, the human shield arm in this game seems to be unaware about how heavy it's shield is. You got one of these huge Rhodok shields and some sarranid invaders put a dozen of javs and jarids into it... but whatever, still as functional as always. just stab the enemy with your hedgehog-shield. oh, you've got a javelin in your torso? nah, it's gonna be fine, just ignore it until the battle is over, it's just some 80cm long stick pointing out of your chest. noone cares tbh.

so yeah, i feel like they should be more realistic, and yes, i noticed that realism isnt the most valuable aspect of any game. but in my opinion javelins should really harm you way more, if you get hit by them. to keep them balanced you could reduce their accuracy or the amount of javs you can buy. i dont really think anyone would walk with 10 javelins on his back into battle.

and secondly bows - it's a bit silly that the most expensive bows are seen as the most useless ones. yes, realism again, but i think short bows and other smaller bows should be pretty useless against someone who is decently armoured. if your sword can bounce off your enemy's armour, an arrow fired by a weak bow should be able to do that as well unless you land a straight shot in his face. If you aim to actually damage your enemy (if they're more than some peasants or mountain bandits) you should be in need of a long bow or something similar. Why would these things exist and be feared if a short bow did a way better job anyway?

long story briefly: less efficient short bows, actually usefull long bows.

 

[Vissy]

War bows and Longbows are still viable options on open maps. I'd even prioritize power over speed because you need the extra damage to take down cavalry.

 

[yourNotAlone]

the money system is pretty consistent except for the part of random downgrades when you spend too much money

 

[Watly]

Guppy giving serious replies. 

 

[Nevino]

I noticed you said something about spawn zones in an earlier post, in SP, you spawn on opposite fields from each other, same with battle in MP, the only game modes with this issue really, are DM and TDM.

Also I completely agree that glances seem to be too random, also I have always used my sound to tell where cav is coming from, but then again I mostly play the cav and not the the inf. It would be better imo to make the tilda key just look behind you and not move in a 360, the animation is nitpicking though imo.

Yes, though unfortunately it seems the only active servers nowadays are tdms and dms.

The reason for the animation again is that I think you should only be able to see what your character could feasibly see, and I should be able to tell what other characters can see or have seen.

This game is from 2009 my friend, you aren't gonna get every little animation. Also for NA TK Battelfield is still fairly active and for EU, IG Battlegrounds is fairly active

 

[Gibby Jr]

I can get behind your first point, most of the rest are a combo of this game being slightly outdated and you not knowing how to (and i know this sounds stupid) swing properly. Its pretty hard to describe, if you want it explained well, I suggest watching some tutorial videos that people have made:

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,191455.0.html  but mainly this one https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,340177.0.html

In regards to the tilde, I flat out disagree with you. The argument of "no other game does this" is fairly broken. No other game (that I can think of) also has you dealing with instakill cav attacking you behind at any time while you are getting your shield shot at by archers in your front. Removing the tilde key would literally break the ability to play any ground troop in this game at a meaningful level, especially infantry. I get what you are saying, but I don't agree with it in the slightest.

You can hear cavalry galloping and it get's louder when it's closer. Nearly all cav use lances, so you just have to parry downward. Those that don't have shorter range and are at greater risk in engaging you. Without relying on sound, you can also just keep your head on a swivel and constantly scan the battlefield, like you would in a real battle. I just think it's ridiculous to be able to see behind you without any indication of such. At the very least your character should have an animation where he looks over his shoulder.

Also a lot of cavalry sneak attacks would be much more avoidable if there were clear spawn zones rather than the random mess spawning is atm.

Thank you for the tutorial links tho

Just blocking downwards isn't going to protect you from a decent cav in multiplayer.

The most basic reason is a couch lance, which can pass through any block and is almost always a 1 hit, which even with tilde catches a lot of archers out if they're not aware while shooting. It also breaks weaker shields instantly.

Second is the bumpstab. I don't know if I have any videos where you can see it done by itself but effectively the cavalry player rides on top of their opponent and stabs down into them. The horse bumps them then a second later the stab connects with the ground troop thus it can't be blocked. You'll find any moderately good cav capable of doing this so just blocking down isn't going to save you.

I agree that tilde is unrealistic and could be replaced with a more limited version than there currently is (ie. Not allowing you to spin your head 360 degrees) however the solution which you propose won't work in competitive play.

This shows that you have a lack of knowledge in terms of the mechanics in the game. I agree with some of what you've said about terrain and such however you may find some of your other concerns not relevant if you look deeper into what it's possible to do.

 

[Primi]

I noticed you said something about spawn zones in an earlier post, in SP, you spawn on opposite fields from each other, same with battle in MP, the only game modes with this issue really, are DM and TDM.

Also I completely agree that glances seem to be too random, also I have always used my sound to tell where cav is coming from, but then again I mostly play the cav and not the the inf. It would be better imo to make the tilda key just look behind you and not move in a 360, the animation is nitpicking though imo.

Yes, though unfortunately it seems the only active servers nowadays are tdms and dms.

The reason for the animation again is that I think you should only be able to see what your character could feasibly see, and I should be able to tell what other characters can see or have seen.

This game is from 2009 my friend, you aren't gonna get every little animation. Also for NA TK Battelfield is still fairly active and for EU, IG Battlegrounds is fairly active

He said multiple times that his suggestions are for the game that'll be from 2017. And I agree with him, would make sense for animations to show where your character is looking at.

 

[captain lust]

Why does every subtle increase or decrease in elevation feel like I'm scaling Mount Everest, and why does walking downhill make you SLOWER?

Have you ever walked down a steep slope?

 

[John_M]

This game is from 2009 my friend, you aren't gonna get every little animation. Also for NA TK Battelfield is still fairly active and for EU, IG Battlegrounds is fairly active

I believe this is something he wants from Bannerlord, not Warband.

 

[Guppy]

Guppy giving serious replies. 

what do you mean? i've always been giving serious replies 

War bows and Longbows are still viable options on open maps. I'd even prioritize power over speed because you need the extra damage to take down cavalry.

yeah, true that, i agree. But on closed maps short bows are probably mostly prefered (with exceptions though, e.g. my good friend Triari), while i think chainmail should protect you fairly well against short bows and the damage advantage of warbows/longbows isnt big enough to make up for their higher price.

 

[Watly]

It's actually pretty simple how to not get cav'd without using tilde key => tell people when cav are coming in an efficient manner. Only teams where everyone is dedicated enough to open their mouths (looking at AE) are capable of doing so though.

The tilde key basically makes people lazy during scrims.

 

[Terrible_Swordsman]

It's actually pretty simple how to not get cav'd without using tilde key => tell people when cav are coming in an efficient manner. Only teams where everyone is dedicated enough to open their mouths (looking at AE) are capable of doing so though.

The tilde key basically makes people lazy during scrims.

Wtf half the people calling cav are high on like adderall looking around with tilde 24/7 lol

Also I think the point still stands that the inability to hold your shield in one direction while looking in another would completely break ground troops

 

[DarkLight]

I hope that when bonerlord comes we get new moderators who dont lock active threads for no reason whatsoever

 

[Caius-BE]

I was thinking about the same thing, I don't know Alene at all but, come on, we are not insulting each other, why did he/she locked this one ?

We are not children ( even if you might think so ) and I think that most of the people here are joking, some may hate each other but I think you can just ask them to stop ( I'm sure you did ), maybe you'll answer " yes but they never learn ", maybe, but it's not a reason to lock every single thread up whenever there's a little banter or some **** going on.

The game is already dead, this year we can clearly see that, there is "nobody" on Native, I know it's holidays but you can clearly see it, the forum is still a place where people can have fun too even if they don't have the time to play etc,... We might not have the best community but let's be honest, we are definitely not the worse, I think the forums are pretty clean most of the time. I'm not saying that the moderators shouldn't do anything but sometimes I just think you overreact. Please, do not delete my message, I'm not trying to start a war against moderators, I respect your work when it is done properly and we will always need you, and do not tell me that there are private messages to tell you this, this way, we'll see how many people agree with me and if they agree, it will be a good opportunity for you to reconsider the way you're moderating the forums.

I think creating a thread to say that wouldn't be appreciated either, sorry to use this one, but Darklight pointed it out, so let's talk about it.

 

[Thunderbeu]

Afaik most "pro" communities in other games ex. CS:GO, DotA talk just as much **** if not more and also if people are legit getting offended on the forums it may not be for you 

 

[Reapy]

Some neat points. Many of them have definitely been requested or talked about over the years or are the results of experiments gone wrong in beta. Remember also that there are only a few maintenance patches that have been made since release with most balancing left as is during release as they shifted to bannerlord. While beta was going on they were adjusting every two weeks, trying out lots of good things and listening the players, I expect bannerlord to have much more dev participation than warband.

                1. Movement speed is very inconsistent and weird.
Pretty much hate this myself, the smallest thing can really mess with movement. I hope this effect stays in game but wouldn't mind a bit of polish on it.

                  2. Stabs are weird and seemingly useless
Looks like this was covered already but yeah this is because of the weapon sweet spot mechanic where your hit doesn't go fully active until it has been active a few frames.  Thrust went through some balancing in beta where at first they hit immediately (before sweet spots were added) AND the arm did not draw back very far so it was hard to see it while it was being chambered to detect the block. The result were instant stabs of pain that was the go to attack to use until fixed.

                  3. Attacks bouncing off generally + inconsistent damage
As people said here it has to do with all the number crunching in a swing that I don't get (armor dampening, reduction, and one other one i forget), swing speed, armor values, damage, stun, etc etc. Generally I only noticed oddities in single player when jammed in with 100 bots in a small area, but in multiplayer it typically always felt 'correct'.

Still I wonder if you could have the same net result we get now with simpler formulas making the game a bit easier to understand, however I will stand by that the game has always felt natural in terms of 'big hits' happening.

                  5. Slugish turn speed when not attacking/blocking
I don't know if I ever noticed a difference, but I did not play much single player. In multiplayer the turn rate is slower than you can set your mouse DPI (eg you can get the camera farther along than the back of your player model's head), but is still pretty fast.

The speed is the result of some tweaking back and forth in beta where they slowed and sped it up a few times to find a good value. The desire was for it to be slower to make spinning around less viable, but that resulted in feeling out of control and frustrating. I think what they have now is a good balance. I'm not sure how I would tweak it further.

                  6. ~ key
Hot topic here it looks like.  I honestly thought it was a given suggestion that people would want head swiveling as you use tilde. I can't wait for all the **** talking head gestures or oddly contorted swing animations people will come up with with this system.

Despite this feature you can sneak up on players plenty, as long as you know you've only been in their line of sight (counting behind them) for a short amount of time or you see something they will have their attention focused on in front of them. I've also had some really fun meta gameplay by peoples decisions to look, or not look, at people trying to sneak up on you.

                    7. Lack of chase mechanic
This is something that was gone back and forth a bit in beta.

First is the subtle sprint mechanic. Not sure if you know how it works but essentially you run slightly faster as long as you hold forward and do not block, attack, or switch weapons.

I still feel like it is the best implemented sprint system in most any game I have played. I like that it is used as transportation, chasing, and maybe first hit when closing but not something you use to make slashing passes at other players in moment to moment combat.

It could be improved in bannerlord by perhaps a slightly faster run speed and a jogging/trotting animation when you swap into it to help players understand the mechanic exists. 

I even might like to say having unique attack animations out of sprint might be interesting.  One part of a fight I always hate is first contact with the other player, usually not many engaging options, it would be neat if trying to circle sprint around them to start with a sprint attack first would be a viable thing.

                    8. Money System and Armor Balance
I have not played enough battle or clan fights to have a good opinion on this, but I do wonder about balance where money is used rather than all weapons being 'horizontally' good.  It has the slight issue of the rich getting richer, meaning the players that need the better gear aren't getting it and always fighting out of a disadvantage, but then again counter strike seems to be thriving on this model.

The main issue might be that it doesn't work for every mode. I honestly felt like dueling got ruined by the existence of the great sword, it was just flat out better stat wise than everything else out there, and if you wanted to be tryhard you basically used that (or maybe 2h sword, but eh). It's balanced by it's cost, but in duel/deathmatch/tdm/siege modes you basically have unlimited funds.

I thought someone had made a competitive weapon rebalance where they made every weapon's stats gradually increase and made sure you had some options with your starting gold. Something like that being done in bannerlord might really help smooth things out.
                   


Okay so all in all, I don't think you are too far out there in ideas for ways bannerlord can improve. I think we will see a lot of those improvements, as part of the problem with warband was not representing many of the good mechanics it has under the hood, which make things appear odd, but really are good mechanics that work well together.

While I'm here typing another novel, some things that I want to see are:

1. Polished UI for multiplayer.
2. Conquest gameplay mode getting a major rejuvenation.
3. Weapon balance/cost pass, basically that competitive mod.
4. Interesting shield mechanics, some way to make holding a shield feel more technical.
5. "More" mechanics. Yeah, I know, what is more? A part of me wants some secondary resource to manage, like say stun was more of a rolling value that you controlled over the fight. Just, something. Maybe different animations with slightly different properties for different weapon styles (sort of like dark souls, minus the dark soulsy stuff, hate their pvp).
6. Feint spam of today... while it is impressive what people are doing, it also feels really silly and discouraging for players to come up against. I guess at the end of the day I'd prefer warband to look like a slower version of an EVO streetfighter fight in terms of the mind games and spacing going on there.  I'm not sure how you fix this either, we'll be seeing this type of play right from the start in bannerlord, of that I'm sure.
7. Ability to interrupt or punish someone while they are holding a chamber.
8. knock arrows out of the air with your weapon (yeah, cmon )

 

[Ebdanian Admiral]

If this was 2014 and there were still a large number of people actively using the forums then locking throwaway and off topic threads would be justifiable. But at the moment the people reading the off topic threads are the ones making the off topic threads themselves. If a community as small as this wants to talk about the next game in the series of the game that the forum was made for more then power to them. If the community wants to talk about which country has the best/worst warbladers I dont see how this can do any hard when everyone who is reading the thread is also posting in the thread.

I could understand being more sensitive about things on a forum like Total Wars where there are a ton of lurkers trying to get new information. But here? Lets face it, nobody comes here anymore apart from ourselves.

 

[Goker]

And you people are discussing forum moderation in a thread about combat. Perhaps a wiser option would be to do things where it's appropriate?

 

[Apollo ?]

Afaik most "pro" communities in other games ex. CS:GO, DotA talk just as much **** if not more and also if people are legit getting offended on the forums it may not be for you 

Or you could be more polite to people 

 

[Ebdanian Admiral]

Perhaps a wiser option would be to do things where it's appropriate?

Like where? There is no thread or forum dedicated to the moderators and admins. And even if that place did exist and we did post there, it would create the illusion that we are criticizing the mods themselves. The mods are fine people and are not worthy of being attacked, we are only discontent with their recent policy of stopping the community from doing community things like discussing parts of the community.