Balance problem with Doccinga defense

[Tingyun]

Not sure if balance problems are still being worked on, but if so:

Doccinga defense is nearly impossible to win if the player is roleplaying by diligently progressing and playing on full difficulty settings (no reduced damage to player or friends, full combat AI)

I took several days adventuring and recruiting, and had over double the minimum troops recommended by the lord (he asks for 15, I had 3. I had recruited 34 norse spearmen (tier 2), 2 tier 1 norse, and 2 footpads from prisoners. There aren't enough battles to have really leveled the troops, and this amount already represents the maximum the player can be expected to have, provided they are roleplaying and not just exploiting the fact that Doccinga won't be attacked for days and days if they don't go there. Yes, mercs could potentially supplement, but my only merc options were a couple of aquitintin skirmishers, who wouldn't have mattered (and the feasibility of the quest shouldn't be dependent on luck of mercs).

I ran the battle 10-15 times to test. Giving orders to troops, not giving orders to troops, trying to distract a boat of vikings, accepting the king's troops or sending them to him, it didn't matter. The vikings killed everyone with 30-45 vikings left alive. I then ran a few tests using ctrl x to upgrade part of the spearmen, still a crushing defeat.

The only way I could win is tweaking the mission templates so I kept my horse for the battle, and then riding around and killing 30+ viking on my own in the field after all my allies had died.

I would recommend the player ally troops be increased. Since the mission is must-win, it shouldn't depend on the player violating roleplaying and waiting weeks and ignoring missions, or the luck of getting good merc options.

OR, the initial request from the jarl should be greatly increased in terms of required troops (since more than double the specified 15 is still woefully inadequate).

 

[Ivan Khan]

Agree with facts, just not impossible. It is a hard battle, the 1st really hard battle. If you want to leave Freesia early, lower difficulty. If you do not want to lower difficulty, hire only higher tier troops, free high level prisoners, capture & recruit high level prisoners -or- just higher more. I have made it with 44 troops, 42 Norse Spearman (Drengr), Reginhard & my character who was Fighter Build. It was very close.

 

[kalarhan]

Doccinga defense

you can bring (IIRC) up to 54 troops, and the enemy is mostly low level

  ("sven_doccinga_ca","Sven's Raiders",carries_goods(8)|pf_always_visible|pf_hide_defenders,0,fac_dark_knights,aggressiveness_15 | courage_15,
[(trp_norse_level0_landed,1,1),
(trp_sea_raider_leader2,2,2),
(trp_elite_viking,9,10),
(trp_taiga_bandit,57,58),]),

~10 high level troops and lots of bandits (level 23), even if they are named "Vikingr". Depends on your battle size, battle advantage and game options.

As I played this years ago I won't comment on current battle difficulty, other than to say that I don't recall having any issues with it (full AI/damage and RP mode, no grinding), back on version ~1.0 and for ~2.0. I guess it could have a check for player with small army and easy options, but I also don't recall this being a issue (complain) in the past, so probably never made to the devs priority list.

ps.: this sort of topic is better created at the support forum

 

[Tingyun]

Well, I agree with everything you guys are saying. The battle can be as trivial as you like if you know what to expect and build up for it.

But as I said, if you are roleplaying and on a first playthrough, then you won't realize this or have that opportunity, absent lucky merc rolls.

The storyline hasn't opened up at this point, and nothing about the missions suggest the player should go off and build up. Instead, the player is told that 15 troops are enough to be ready for the battle with thiaderd, and then right after that Doccinga is attacked, and any roleplayer is going to rush to its aid and not build up further.

I would have no issues if the earlier mission specified that 45 troops were needed, or even simply told the player he will need high level troops. Instead, the player is told to gather 15 men from villages and towns, and then an urgent situation is created where Doccinga pleads for immediate help, which creates a trap for the player on their first playthrough.

 

[DaVincix]

That's somehow strange. As i did the storyline (i  don't anymore) with 2.028 and also recently 2.032 beta, i had no real issues with the Doccinga defense. One time it was mere very easy because the invaders were pretty low on numbers (iirc. , the game told that their full troops/ships were hindered somehow), one time a mere short victory when the full raider troops arrive.

Equal if i bring up 15 or more own troops, the village under Tonkrith raised quite some peasant troops, plus, high/medium level warrior troops are there as well (iirc., the game tells, sent by the king or was it even Hradolf, the traitor?). Btw., played that as Angle-Saxon, i never took Norse troops to my army, just only Frisian and peasant troops.

Together, iirc., ca. 50 defender troops waiting at the coastline, when Sven's raiders arrive from their ships one after another, so the attacker groups are even merely outnumbered for moments.

I mean to remember, at battle-end, ca. 5 to 10 defender troops survived, when the battle has been rather hard. So according to my subjective storyline experience, there is no balance issue with Doccinga.

Question implicated imo.: Is there a random troop number code/script-parameter and/or dependent on difficulty setting, for defenders and attackers?

Edit: As for OP speaking of merc purchasement due to have higher level troops, i personally never ever bought a single merc troop, if storyline or sandbox.

 

[Tingyun]

DaVincix: My tests were on full difficulty settings and max battle size--I ran 10-15 tests, every time it was a complete slaughter with player bringing 34 tier 2 norse spearmen, 2 footpads, 2 tier 1 norse (38 troops total).

Kalarhan discusses the enemy troops above, and yes they are dependent on game settings.

You don't mention what settings you use, but given I ran 10-15 tests, this isn't the result of random chance, though naturally playing with lower difficulty or battle size would change things.

As I said, the only problem is the new player is led astray by the directions to raise 15 troops, and then doccinga attack occurring immediattly after thiaderd. A higher number of troops being recomended, or a note that higher difficulty may require more, would avoid trapping players. It's not like raising more troops is an actual challange or adds difficulty, the roleplayer just needs to be better warned or he will diligently progress in the quest and arrive at a slaughter. Later this isn't an issue because the open ended nature of the storyline encourages building up, but Frissia is too directed and early for that to be assumed.

At any rate, it isn't an issue for me personally. Tweaking the horse in and personally slaugtering the 30-40 remaining vikings was easy enough, and in future playthroughs I'll either do that again or just pretend the lord asks for 50 troops and wait an extra couple of days to raise them. Just reporting to help improve the experience for players new to the mod, whether it is fixed or not I'll leave the issue alone now and go back to playing.

 

[PCK11800]

It's actually possible to defend Doccinga with only 15 freeholders in your party on normal dmg to you and your troops with the best combat ai. 

Just jump onto the roof of the house near where the farmers and peasants spawns and literally bait around 15-20 vikings trying to get you. Your allies will kill  the rest before moving on to the ones trying to get you, and instead of one concentrated force your troops have to worry about, it's two smaller ones.

Also tell all the troops to move to one location, so they have a number advantage over the vikings.  :

 

[DaVincix]

DaVincix: My tests were on full difficulty settings and max battle size--I ran 10-15 tests, every time it was a complete slaughter with player bringing 34 tier 2 norse spearmen, 2 footpads, 2 tier 1 norse (38 troops total).

Kalarhan discusses the enemy troops above, and yes they are dependent on game settings.

You don't mention what settings you use, but given I ran 10-15 tests, this isn't the result of random chance, though naturally playing with lower difficulty or battle size would change things.

As I said, the only problem is the new player is led astray by the directions to raise 15 troops, and then doccinga attack occurring immediattly after thiaderd. A higher number of troops being recomended, or a note that higher difficulty may require more, would avoid trapping players. It's not like raising more troops is an actual challange or adds difficulty, the roleplayer just needs to be better warned or he will diligently progress in the quest and arrive at a slaughter. Later this isn't an issue because the open ended nature of the storyline encourages building up, but Frissia is too directed and early for that to be assumed.

At any rate, it isn't an issue for me personally. Tweaking the horse in and personally slaugtering the 30-40 remaining vikings was easy enough, and in future playthroughs I'll either do that again or just pretend the lord asks for 50 troops and wait an extra couple of days to raise them. Just reporting to help improve the experience for players new to the mod, whether it is fixed or not I'll leave the issue alone now and go back to playing.

Hm, speaking of warning really new players, as you suggested: My best advice is, difficulty on "Beginners" in all categories. That setting, just until a new player is used to the mechanics and possible tactics which work to overtrump also if one is outnumbered, etc..

I was a MB Warband player years ago. Clear is, VC is a slight bit harder than Warband. Nonetheless, in VC the Realism settings are a must imo., as they are the special VC feature, all of them incl. Bloodloss and of course Stamina. Battle size 300 (the default max for the game engine). Imo. one is self-guilty , so to speak, if one plays on higher difficulty settings. I play on Normal difficulty setting for player and allies (at start phases, i also play on half damage or even quarter, for the player). After all, the player is meant to be the hero

Btw., i am a veteran pc game player, and actually i prefer all games on Normal difficulty. Imo. with higher difficulty than Normal, so to speak artificial boni are added to the AI, which imbalance the things. Edit: Except for certain game titles, where fe. only the hardest settings plus hardcore mods provide a proper challenge and/or fun after a (mere short) while.

Not sure, what "on full difficulty settings" means.
"max battle size" ... you mean the slider to the fullest on the right side? (isn't this a game engine issue, then?).
Certainly not advisable for the VC starter and playing the storyline. While, for Frisia, this makes not a big difference, or? Especially not for the Doccinga battle.

Anyway, as for Doccinga again, with according settings for Beginner, the battle shouldn't be that difficult to match, but that's just my subjective experience.

 

[Tingyun]

Davincix: Full damage to player and friends and max combat AI is the fair setting, and plenty of people are new to Viking conquest, but warband veterans. No point in playing on easy settings and being bored just because you haven't yet played through the storyline. Viking conquest isn't harder than Pendor, and in fact, the lack of cavalry enemies means it is much easier for the player to solo kill pretty much any bandit party on the map as soon as they have saved up for a horse.


In any event, bear in mind this is NOT an issue of difficulty. It is completely trivial to walk around for a few days and recruit a few more troops, it takes 5 minutes and 0 player skill. The campaign even allows the player to leave Doccinga alone and take all the time they need.

Rather than presenting a challenge, only asking the player to raise 15 men is just a way to trap a new player who roleplays Frisia with an undeserved death. He then can reload, ignore role playing and recruit more troops as he knows metagame that Docinga won't be attacked until the moment he arrives.

That isn't difficult, it is just a disruption to role playing and what would otherwise be a very immersive climatic battle. Better to let him know earlier he will need more troops, and not disrupt the excellent narrative flow as it comes to a climax.

PCK11800: interesting idea on the roofs. I tend to prefer my solution of tweaking in the player horse, as it seems more realistic than exploiting the bad enemy AI, and it was rather fun personally piling up the 30+ Viking bodies in the field near the town. But your solution seems fun as well.

 

[Ivan Khan]

... plenty of people are new to Viking conquest, but warband veterans...

... just a way to trap a new player who roleplays Frisia with an undeserved death...

That isn't difficult, it is just a disruption to role playing and what would otherwise be a very immersive climatic battle. Better to let him know earlier he will need more troops, and not disrupt the excellent narrative flow as it comes to a climax...

Looking back on my 1st play through, I died a few times before I knew the increased difficulty of VC over Native. Thiaderd was 1st to kill me (think it was harder in earlier versions), Doccinga was next. Then, there are even bigger shocks later. But, then when I started Native I got killed too. I agree the play through is not any easy tutorial, it is brutal, much harder than playing in sandbox mode.

Warnings?  Not sure, Death is part of role-playing you know. Doccinga is early enough in the game to learn that this is not Native and you better bring a real army to each challenge. Normally leave Freesia in 10 days or so, not hard to restart there.

PS: Died in many more battles later on.

 

[kalarhan]

Looking back on my 1st play through...

one of the reasons VC RE (version 2.0) added a number of difficulty settings, which are much more friendly to a casual RP player (that wants to focus on story, not on gameplay) than on release (version 1.0).

usually games nowadays come with something like: casual/story mode; normal (as intended to); hardcore (masochists/crazy veterans). VC menu is one of those good/bad cases. It allows you a lot of control, but at the same time it may confuse new players that end up ignoring the options and play on the wrong difficulty as a result. Looking back it may have benefited from a simpler menu with only three choices (RP, normal, hard), with the advanced settings hidden in another screen (optional) 

 

[Tingyun]

Ivan Khan: I've explained in detail why this isn't a difficulty issue. As I said:

"bear in mind this is NOT an issue of difficulty. It is completely trivial to walk around for a few days and recruit a few more troops, it takes 5 minutes and 0 player skill. The campaign even allows the player to leave Doccinga alone and take all the time they need."

Again, the recommendation of only 15 troops in the quest does nothing but cause the player to disrupt roleplaying and later leave the village alone for days on the metagame principle that the Vikings will dutifully await the exact moment of the player's arrival before attacking. That is not difficulty, it is just encouraging bad roleplaying, and could be fixed in a minute by increasing the troop requirement on the previous leg of the quest.

Kalarhan: Viking Conquest isn't really all that difficult, certainly not compared to Pendor. No enemy cavalry means the player can easily slaughter 30+ strong bands of Vikings solo once he gets a horse, and make around 20,000 per battle from all the loot. Lack of Pendor's level limits on recruiting prisoners means it is also trivial to build up a very strong army. Harder than native certainly, but a good step easier than Pendor.

This is my last reply on this topic--I've explained how this isn't a difficulty issue several times over now, but if people really want to argue that having the player ignore a village's desperate call for help and just click around with the mouse recruiting for 5 minutes is some kind of immersive challenge, than I really have nothing more to say.

 

[kalarhan]

No enemy cavalry means the player can easily slaughter 30+ strong bands

that is a silly argument. The game is not hard because I can use this exploit or that cheat code 

 

[Tingyun]

No enemy cavalry means the player can easily slaughter 30+ strong bands

that is a silly argument. The game is not hard because I can use this exploit or that cheat code 

Wait, you consider the player being mounted when attacking outlaw Viking parties an exploit?

Horses are sold in every town, how is using them an exploit?

 

[kalarhan]

Horses are sold in every town, how is using them an exploit?

you are exploiting a game mechanic to make the game not just easy, but impossible to lose. It is similar to use a auto kill cheat. It doesn't mean you shouldn't use that, it is your game and you can do whatever you want in SP 

taking a horse and killing 100 enemies solo is a old MB tactic, even if makes no sense  , whatever rocks your boat

 

[Tingyun]

Horses are sold in every town, how is using them an exploit?

you are exploiting a game mechanic to make the game not just easy, but impossible to lose. It is similar to use a auto kill cheat. It doesn't mean you shouldn't use that, it is your game and you can do whatever you want in SP 

taking a horse and killing 100 enemies solo is a old MB tactic, even if makes no sense  , whatever rocks your boat

Sigh. You think it doesn't take skill to take out an enemy force without couched lances or horse archery, instead clipping the edges of the opposing force with a Briton sword on a low armor horse that can probably only take 2 hits before going down? You think that is an auto kill cheat?

The developers weakened mounted combat a great deal to be consistent with the times, and if a skilled cavalry player can succeed despite that, he deserves every victory. Besides, the difficulty of a mod should be judged in accordance with the tools the developers provided--they purposefully chose to include a weakened form of mounted combat, not remove it entirely.

So lets summarize the arguments here:

1) using the tools the developers included (low armor horses) = exploitive cheating

2) spending 5 minutes clicking between towns and hitting the recruit button = hardcore challenge for real veterans

Ok, I'm done now--this has gotten far too silly for me to discuss further. Bye everyone.

 

[kalarhan]

1) using the tools the developers included (low armor horses) = exploitive cheating

2) spending 5 minutes clicking between towns and hitting the recruit button = hardcore challenge for real veterans

1) just because something is possible in the game, it doesn't mean it is part of the design of how the game is intended (Balanced) to be

2) outside the point, so pointless point pointed 

TLDR: argument invalid if you want to talk about how easy or hard the game is or is not

 

[Tingyun]

Ok, I'll bite one more time: why do you say player mounted combat is outside the design of this mod?

If it is, the developers sure went to a lot of needless trouble balancing low armor horses, removing couched capabilities, restricting ranged weapons, and choosing which weapons are and are not allowed on horseback.

If you are right, why did they not simply remove the ability to use any weapons on horseback?

Honestly, your assertion that mounted combat is outside the design of this mod is not only unsupported by anything but your own opinion, but inconsistent with countless design choices.

As for the reference to recruiting men, you and others have earlier argued that this is a design choice related to difficulty. Indeed, that is the fundamental subject of this thread, and we are currently on a tangent. That you have apparently now abandoned that point, doesn't make it pointless. But sure, let's focus on the mounted combat point now, it is where the more entertainingly ridiculous arguments are anyway.

 

[kalarhan]

why do you say player mounted combat is outside the design of this mod?

never said that 

 

[Tingyun]

why do you say player mounted combat is outside the design of this mod?

never said that 

Then come out and state a coherent rule and an actual argument beyond your personal opinion.

If you are dodging this because you realize your position is logically incoherent, that is understandable, but I'd love to hear a tortured argument about how player mounted combat is only ok if the player refrains from being too good at it.