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darkheart84 said:

felixng2011 said:

Brew said:

TrashMan said:

Yeah, the game is really strange. Bows outperform crossbows against armor. That shouldn't happen.

There are no really good high-end crossbows or throwing weapons for the player.

I'd either buff plate armor all around, or nerf bows (or better yet normalize their stats)

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The mettenhiem arbalest
there are 2 or 3 player only throwing weapons

The main way bows outperform xbows is down to speed and the way most of the best bows can be used while mounted, the best xbows would be extremly difficult if not impossible to reload while mounted
I don't think xbows should outperform bows as bows require skill points to enable their use and to improve their use whereas xbows only have a strength requirement
Xbows can penetrate shields
Xbows got a sizable buff in current release and have new stronger bolts

If we are to look at it from a realistic point of view the reason xbows where viewed as superior to bows was due to the training that was required to make a good archer while almost anyone can use a xbow

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I was surprised at how much better xbows have become. I have power draw 7 on my new character with noldor bow and the mettenheim xbow reloads slower but does comparable if not better damage.

Definitely very viable if you don't want to put points into power draw or want to play an xbow character. Maiden crossbow is pretty decent too for mounted combat.

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Well that's starting to sound better. I haven't ever seen one sold by vendors though, not that I recall. Is it dropped by those caravans that are guarded by several mounted maidens?

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Brew said:

TrashMan said:

Yeah, the game is really strange. Bows outperform crossbows against armor. That shouldn't happen.

There are no really good high-end crossbows or throwing weapons for the player.

I'd either buff plate armor all around, or nerf bows (or better yet normalize their stats)

Click to expand...

The mettenhiem arbalest
there are 2 or 3 player only throwing weapons

The main way bows outperform xbows is down to speed and the way most of the best bows can be used while mounted, the best xbows would be extremly difficult if not impossible to reload while mounted
I don't think xbows should outperform bows as bows require skill points to enable their use and to improve their use whereas xbows only have a strength requirement
Xbows can penetrate shields
Xbows got a sizable buff in current release and have new stronger bolts

If we are to look at it from a realistic point of view the reason xbows where viewed as superior to bows was due to the training that was required to make a good archer while almost anyone can use a xbow

Click to expand...

Alavaria said:

Ok, so to be a bit more organized about comparing Maiden vs Veccavi, I checked what the tree looks like:

Veccavia Horse is available much "earlier" than Maiden Cavalry (training a level 10 vs lvl 20) but both of them are pretty squishy units. At least the Veccavia Horse doesn't need you to pay for their little crossbow, though the Maiden Cavalry does seem to have better body armor (they still forget their helmet occasionally)

However, if you get past the level 31/32 breakpoint (which I usually do) then you're looking at comparing Veccavia Knight vs Maiden Adventurer. Highlights:

• It's easier to train the knight (Train a lvl 10 and 31) then the adventurer (train a 15, 20 and 30)
• Paying Aventurer for a little crossbow
• Adventurer has only one melee weapon (the knight can have both a lance and sword)
• Adventurer has a better horse

Next point is at 35/36 which is pretty endgame. The Queen's Guard isn't looking very great, after all this they still have a pretty squishy horse. The Maiden Noble and Heroine are expensive but both rather good, I'm leaning to the Noble because they are a straight pure melee. The Heroine gets 50% crossbow, 50% Short Composite bow, if you like super horse archers go for the Heroic Adventurer instead, or maybe upgrade Clarion Call...

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So if I was to be using this tree heavily, I might like using the Veccavia Knights over the Maiden Adventurers, but really the big thing is that if you use Maiden Adventurers/Cavalry and keep adding and adding to them, eventually you get the chance to mass promote into a stack of Maiden Nobles who will own face (power strike 9, heh)

I definitely would prefer to do this only after being able to train level 30 units (Maiden Cavalry) though, trying to push them up via Darwinian methods is a bit annoying (same for the Veccavia Horse) as it feels they get a kill here and there and their survivablity depends most on your Surgery skill, if you get my drift...

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Serazu said:

1. In the ancient Tolkien world, the Numenoreans could give the Elves a run for their money. And in the third age, the Elves were not stronger than the humans. Those Elves that were still more powerful were the survivors of the first and second ages (Glorfindel etc.). In other fantasy worlds (d&d, wh etc.), the Elves are not superior to humans.

2. The Noldor equipment is top-notch, but not to the point that it makes human equipment irrelevant by comparison. The only significant exception is the Noldor composite bow, but, hey, the bow is THE signature elven weapon. Not even the mighty Spirit Horse. It's stats are godlike, but they are far too high for proper usage on the field. The best horse in the game with stats as high as they should be, perfect attitude on the field and cool looks is the Desert War Horse. A divine choice for a rider, whether a lancer or an archer. The Spirit Horse's extremely high speed causes serious instability issues in horse archery while the NC might be the absolute tank in this game, but it's fairly slow. The DWH presents the absolute package. And of course, in the rule-of-cool department, no horse beats the Ravenstern/Sarleon warhorses. I leave the Demonic Charger out of the equation, since it's meant only for demons (and Wolfbode, alright).

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thermocline said:

Alavaria said:

Though with the Maiden Cavalry and Adventurer you pay for their crossbow which is... eh... and the Heroine Adventurer sometimes spawns with the crossbow as well (while the Hero Adventurer is 100% Hawkstorm bow). Maiden Nobles are ok, I guess.

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Hero Adventurers are 50% Hawkstorm, 25% Short Composite, and 25% Noldor Bow. ...which is awesome. Noldor Bow with 500 proficiency basically means, if you field 20 Hero Adventurers, it's like having 15 normal HAs and 5 Noldor Nobles. Not to mention that HAs now have a ~50% chance to spawn with an ebony sword.

Hero Adventurers were massively buffed in 3.7. From a training perspective, when you consider that a Veccavi Knight is just as difficult to train (coming from a level 31 unit) as a Hero Adventurer, Vecc Knights don't seem overpowered at all, do they?

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Krozzy said:

felixng2011 said:

Alavaria said:

It's almost funny how bad their Veccavia Horse (level 31) are for their cost. Though I suppose once you get companions at level 32+ and can slam Training into it, you have a nice source of horse to spam.

Actually, now that I think about it, their level 10 Veccavia Man Hunter upgrades directly to their heavy archer unit, doesn't it?

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Yea they are pretty bad but look at the cost of maiden cavalry and how mediocre they are.

Sure they got ranged weapons but they are pretty weak.

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I think the issue is that the Maiden warrior line gets the mercenary tax doesn't it? And the Veccavia line does not? It makes for a clear choice.

I enjoy picking up peasant women and training them, if only to paint the illusion that I am making my troops happier. What could be worse than following a lord around that makes hundreds of thousands of denars, only pays you 50 a week, and your chances of getting killed in the next few months are extremely likely? That, plus sausage fest.  I mean really, if you joined an army of a lord with many times more renown than anyone else, legendary warrior on the battle field, winner of hundreds of tournaments....And the highest seniority dude has only had the job for like 7 weeks...I think some red flags would be thrown.

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Alavaria said:

It's almost funny how bad their Veccavia Horse (level 31) are for their cost. Though I suppose once you get companions at level 32+ and can slam Training into it, you have a nice source of horse to spam.

Actually, now that I think about it, their level 10 Veccavia Man Hunter upgrades directly to their heavy archer unit, doesn't it?

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Epicrules said:

felixng2011 said:

Its crazy

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This is exactly what I'm insinuating. However, anything and everything apparently can be justified by citing "listening to the community!!11!1". Which community is being listened to? Beats me.

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Epicrules said:

It's almost like they're troops from an invading country and weren't originally intended to be used by the player...

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DeSoto said:

Edit: Changed the title from "Noldor are in dire need of a rework, they need a downside like any other faction" to the current one, as it seemed to many that I mainly complained about the difficulty in fighting them. But this is really about their best-in-every-slot equipment (rune weapons excluded cause qualis are not readily available).

Let's take a look at what they got currently:

- by far the fastest/most accurate/hardest hitting bows
- by far the best armor - especially if you factoring in encumbrance
- by far the fastest/best armoured horses
- by far the fastest melee weapons that also deal very good damage
- by far the best shields

That's every single equipment slot. A faction that lives secluded somewhere in the woods apparently has the best war industry in the known world. That's just plain ridiculous.
Yes I get it, they are a very old civilization and they have all this super-advanced knowledge and all of that LotR lore nonsense. They are still living in the woods and should have no way to compete with say Mettenheim when it comes to armor and melee weapons. Absolutely no way.

Then can pretty much destroy you from across the map already, when you manage to close the distance and get into melee range you should have the upper hand when equipped properly. And we're talking heavy plate here, not that Zelda cosplay armour they are wearing. What's the point in putting in a faction that is the best at everything, what kind of equipment diversity you expect to come out of this? Of course you want the best equipment in the slot - which means that even if you go full melee you will not get around them.
They can have the best bows and fastest (moderatly armoured!) horses for all I care, but when it comes to damage protection they should not be the first pick. Neither for melee weapons.

So in short:

- keep the bows
- keep the horses, but reduce their armour by a fair bit (they don't even have any notewhorty visible armour on them, how could they sustain so much damage? Is it the magical pointy ears again?)
- make the amour less durable overall, helmets/body amour/boots all look like they should be at best at 2/3 to 3/4 of their current values
- either make the melee weapons slower or make them hit for less
- the same for shields, either reduce their hitpoints or their resistances

Again, if you manage to close the distance you should be in for a fair fight and not just another uphill battle (their average life is also much higher than that of your troops) . I'm not talking about cheesing them with auto-resolve btw, this is strictly about manual battles where the numbers on both sides are even. And as far as I recall they were like this even before the introduction of CKOs, so they are not made that way to counter those, they are just the undisputed #1. Which in turn makes them completely bland (in a Superman kinda way).

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Alavaria said:

Spawning with a massive lance and a little crossbow isn't really much of an improvement in sieges...

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