The 'Consolization' of Mount and Blade and Bannerlord

[a_ver_est]

The leveling system is just badly designed. It's **** and frustrating.

Most Warband players don't fully understand the depth of combat either, but at least it's fun to play, so no real change there.

The streamlining in Bannerlord is things like:
- the lack of interaction with NPCs. In WB and VC, we can give suggestions about what to do to other lords (go siege X, go patrol, flee in this direction...), marriage is a bit more interactive instead of just RNG, there is still a lot of room for improvement. This is just straight dumbed down in BL.

We can't even tell our own clan members what to do FFS. Modders created a mod to do that like 2 weeks after EA started, without modding tools. WTF is Taleworlds doing?

- The general lack of things to do outside of just fighting. In the old games, we can do a bit of intrigue, sabotaging other kingdoms' stability, help make peace by doing quest, etc... It's primitive, but the idea is there to expand on.

Mostly agree, but I think that people doesn't remember WB vainilla correctly. If you play it without some basic mods like diplomacy some mechanics are terrible fustrating. For example it doesn't make sense that the king has to look where can he buy oil for the lamps to host a feast to mention one.

So, I don't understood all these claims to have these things back. Honestly my hopes were having something better, at least at same level than WB + basic mods. Also I don't care having some of them eliminated if they were replaced for something new and interesting.

What we have now is many mechanics eliminated without replacement and a few new features, some of them are great (despite they still need tunning) like birth/death feature, but in the end it doesn't feels like a step forward from previous games.

But you know the roadmap, next great addition is clan micromanagement which might be nice and address some of these "game holes" and then let's see...

Not sure what happened with cavalry AI improvement, I haven't read about it in some time not sure if it has been implemented or not.

 

[hirovard]

And really you need a mascot for the perks! How about Mountain Blade boy?

omg, picture like a chibi but with a sugarloaf helm.

 

[babelfisch]

The leveling system is just badly designed. It's **** and frustrating.

Most Warband players don't fully understand the depth of combat either, but at least it's fun to play, so no real change there.

The streamlining in Bannerlord is things like:
- the lack of interaction with NPCs. In WB and VC, we can give suggestions about what to do to other lords (go siege X, go patrol, flee in this direction...), marriage is a bit more interactive instead of just RNG, there is still a lot of room for improvement. This is just straight dumbed down in BL.

We can't even tell our own clan members what to do FFS. Modders created a mod to do that like 2 weeks after EA started, without modding tools. WTF is Taleworlds doing?

- The general lack of things to do outside of just fighting. In the old games, we can do a bit of intrigue, sabotaging other kingdoms' stability, help make peace by doing quest, etc... It's primitive, but the idea is there to expand on.

If that's the issue this thread is pretty much nonsense.

 

[Helz]

Off the top of my head:
Premade classes for multiplayer.
Universal armor value and cosmetic skins instead of functional armor ratings for each piece of gear.
Automatic range adjustments for archers.
6v6 "competitive mode" instead of Battle.

 

[Helstrom]

The leveling system is just badly designed. It's **** and frustrating.

Most Warband players don't fully understand the depth of combat either, but at least it's fun to play, so no real change there.

The streamlining in Bannerlord is things like:
- the lack of interaction with NPCs. In WB and VC, we can give suggestions about what to do to other lords (go siege X, go patrol, flee in this direction...), marriage is a bit more interactive instead of just RNG, there is still a lot of room for improvement. This is just straight dumbed down in BL.

We can't even tell our own clan members what to do FFS. Modders created a mod to do that like 2 weeks after EA started, without modding tools. WTF is Taleworlds doing?

- The general lack of things to do outside of just fighting. In the old games, we can do a bit of intrigue, sabotaging other kingdoms' stability, help make peace by doing quest, etc... It's primitive, but the idea is there to expand on.

This is all true and great stuff. Bannerlord right now can't even stop the army spam that cripples the requirement of troops.

The first war, which they start with, has the losing nobles clean out every village so that the losing side is running around with recruits. These recruits now have to fight a well trained army. The opposing army is the same army they died and trained up with their deaths. Well, now they lost again and training them further by doing so. The cycle continues until the wars stops, which is very rare.

I had my faction stop fighting for 10 minutes. At the end of the 10 minutes the nobles armies were somewhat better and not all recruits. Then the war broke out with the same kingdom as before. That kingdom came back to continue the cycle of destroying the inferior trash armies with its epic starting army.

A bit of a disaster. Console or no console, I can't see this being acceptable.

 

[Stromming]

For people in this thread saying that console isn't affecting development, think again.

mexxico:
Actually there are people who want us to change AI to make less calculations than now (even they say AI can randomly can give up evaluation of some targets - which can result in total disaster) because it seems we need to get 30 fps at consoles.

 

[Mikal Manfriedson]

Well, then said people should consider NOT to port a game to consoles, that heavily depends on making lots of calculations to be good. What about: make a good and deep BL for PC FIRST and then start dismantling it for consoles giving them their streamlined version lacking CPU-heavy features. I am sick of this kind of handling things.

 

[Stromming]

Well, then said people should consider NOT to port a game to consoles, that heavily depends on making lots of calculations to be good. What about: make a good and deep BL for PC FIRST and then start dismantling it for consoles giving them their streamlined version lacking CPU-heavy features. I am sick of this kind of handling things.

Agreed, and more discussion about this exact thing can be found here.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/maddening-army-ai-this-army-was-sponsored-by-raid.438426/#post-9630552

 

[stevehoos]

If this game did not have modding, I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole. It's obvious the console direction has drained the life out of it. One modder in his spare time introduces better depth in features.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

I have just read the original comment and while I love to read such open-ended statements, at the end of the day it is worrying information to read.

mexxico:
Actually there are people who want us to change AI to make less calculations than now (even they say AI can randomly can give up evaluation of some targets - which can result in total disaster) because it seems we need to get 30 fps at consoles.

While it is true it is talking about a decision not taken ("yet"), it does not imply that it ultimately is going to happen. As a consumer/fan/gamer I see a vicious circle here, as with these supposed changes to the AI for the sake of equalising performance on both platforms, it leads to a detriment of the gameplay experience for both the pc gamer and the future console gamer.

Let's not delude ourselves, despite the jokes we make about them (console peasants) they also want a quality product; I mean, if these people had the availability to run bannerlord on their consoles now, they would be giving the same kind of feedback (both negative and positive) which we have already shared.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

If this game did not have modding, I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole. It's obvious the console direction has drained the life out of it. One modder in his spare time introduces better depth in features.

How is bannerlord even in its current state more console friendly than warband?

 

[vonbalt]

For people in this thread saying that console isn't affecting development, think again.

Holy ****... really hope this doesnt pass but it's worrying indeed that they want to simplify things even further because of consoles... the game is already arcadey more than enough without mods and the simulations in fights between AI is basically non existent (one on one random troops with a roll for kill or wounded lol)

 

[Mad Vader]

That mexxico comment is disturbing. You would assume that they'll try to improve the tactical and strategic AI algorithms first (and generally make the game better and more fun) and only then discuss miliseconds and consoles. The mentality behind this feels so rushed and shoddy.
Now they are in a quick and dirty patch-it-and-run mode because all the deadlines were yesterday, although it will take them months to get anywhere. Instead they should just take their time they'll use up anyway to make solid implementations of their core game systems.

 

[Worlok]

Disappointing indeed. I can clearly remember, when I was hesitating in April 2020 to buy this EA or not. I was closely watching the forums and tried to guess if this EA will be just a business "fiddle" (i.e. get the money and that's it).
After watching the forums for months, I got to the conclusion TaleWorlds will finish the game at some point in time. Unfortunately, I was wrong!
It's time to make some negative review on steam at this point. I am not happy to do this because of some helpful devs in TaleWorlds, but I do not have other option. I feel cheated and I think it's not fair against any customer (player-base).
I will also ensure to inform the console players community about my review. Basically, they are in the same position as I was in April 2020.

I would like to apologize to those in TW who are/were helpful (mexxico, MArdA TaleWorlds, elysebluemoon, uçanbiblo). Basically this criticism is not to them but to those who made the mentioned business decisions.

 

[vonbalt]

The devs seem great but the upper management in taking some very questionable decisions (to say the least) that's really worrying, i supported the EA version because of TW's history as a pioneer in early access with the original M&B where they delivered a great passionated product (with the limitations of it's time of course), with this new engine the sky is the limit as modders have been showing since the start (alliances and non-agression pacts two weeks after release with no modding tools for example and we still didn't get those in vanilla)

 

[stevehoos]

How is bannerlord even in its current state more console friendly than warband?

I did not say that. I said the direction of the companies next step (Bannerlord) included a strong vision for console. TW could have gone a different direction.

 

[PaTi6op]

It's time to make some negative review on steam at this point. I am not happy to do this because of some helpful devs in TaleWorlds, but I do not have other option. I feel cheated and I think it's not fair against any customer (player-base).
I will also ensure to inform the console players community about my review. Basically, they are in the same position as I was in April 2020.

I have never understood people like you, and I don’t want to understand. The game is still in active development, nothing has been decided yet, but you are already ready to go to Steam and write negative reviews. Believe me, there are enough people out there without you who, without understanding, are ready to pour out their negativity.

I always ask why did you buy the game in Early Access? You understand what the developers themselves said: - Do not buy if you are not ready to accept the game at the current level with missing features and bugs.

The game can still be quietly developed for a year, or even two, if the developers decide so. And everything you dreamed about may still appear in the release version or the DLC version. Maybe you just forget about the existence of BL and wait for the release?

 

[Honved]

Morrowind was weird and mysterious and interesting. I had to study for a week to figure out how not to ruin my character. It paid off with incredible customization. Ironically, Taleworlds caught the "streamlining" bug but also recreated the most confusing part of Morrowind's leveling system...leveling the wrong skills penalizes you.

It wouldn't break your character to level up through non-essential skills, but did slow down progress. That wasn't a huge problem because the leveled lists would still include the weaker opponents. Your character's performance and success were determined by the combination of skills and attributes associated with each task. Skills increased through use, and the associated Attributes also increased as a result, but you had a couple of voluntarily assignable points each level to tweak it a bit to your liking.

Oblivion was a MUCH bigger problem, where the low-level critters and equipment were REPLACED by higher level items as you leveled up, or SCALED so they were stronger at higher character levels. That weak goblin with a dozen hit-points which you killed with a stab of a rusty knife at Level 1 now has 600 hit points and takes 20 hits with a serious weapon to kill. If you leveled in a non-optimized way, the game got significantly harder, instead of easier, because the enemies got stronger while your own combat skills might not. Most Attributes in OB did nothing other than limit skill increases, so Attributes were removed in Skyrim as "useless". At that point, it was a cheesy console game system, despite the large open world.

Basically, M&B and Warband had a generic attribute leveling system, but you gained a good portion of your weapon skills through actually using them. Now it seems like they're trying to water the game down to Skyrim levels or lower, as nothing more than another generic action title pasted in a huge open world.

 

[Mad Vader]

Well, some people love to play with a calculator all day and memorize which attribute rules which skills and which skills you have to grind to get optimal attribute increases on level up.
Other people are happy to customize their character through skills they use and associated perks. It's a good example of streamlined design that's superior to the unnecessarily complex fluff that were attributes. The only consolish part of Skyrim was the UI. The rest of it was a finely matured game design as is expected from a fifth installment in a series.
Yes, you liked Morrowind and everything that's associated with it. But you need to separate the few things that made Morrowind great (including nostalgia bias) from its clunky game systems.

 

[kreamy]

If this game did not have modding, I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole. It's obvious the console direction has drained the life out of it. One modder in his spare time introduces better depth in features.

really scary thought.

Honestly, M&B is what it is today because of the PC community, and the early adopters who saw the franchise through to Warband which was a huge success.

I get it, the want to tap into a new market. But honestly, they should dumb down the console version - I dont see why both versions have to suffer because they are targeting 30 fps for example (no doubt to be played on last gen consoles? who f'n knows...? I can never tell anymore with TW...)


JUST CUT DOWN THE CONSOLE VERSION, not both. Oof.