Game Design suggestion/discussion: Dungeons, landmarks and player's base camp

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The Problem:
I've been playing the Mount and Blade series since 2012 and while i've thoroughly enjoyed every title in the series, it always felt like there's something missing from the series. So the other day I spent some time analysing Bannerlord's gameplay mechanics, especially by comparing Bannerlord with other open world games that i also really enjoyed, such as Battlebrother, the witcher 3, dragon's dogma and the elder scrolls series. And then it occurs to me, the problem that i have with Bannerlord is too much time spent in the campaign map, and not enough time for action on the ground.

This issue is particularly prominent in early and mid game where the player is limited to grinding the arena and the looters repeatedly, and even then the player has to spend lots of time on the campaign map trying to dodge larger bands of looters while having a hard time catching up to smaller bands of looters especially now with the reduced movement speed in latest beta branch 1.5.7 update. So for the very early game you're basically restricted to grinding the arena which gets repetitive very quickly, and more importantly from a game design perspective, the arena does not allow you to use weapons or armor that you bought and equipped on your character.

So why's this a problem you say, well it's a problem because Bannerlord has superior graphics and physics engine compared to Warband from 8 years ago, but if you spend the majority of your gameplay on the campaign map then the experience you get out of Bannerlord is essentially no different than what you'd get out of Warband. The campaign map might be filled with beautifully crafted villages and castles but you rarely have a reason to visit these scenes in person. Most of the time you click on the npc you want to talk to from campaign map and when you're done you press tab to exit.

The solution:
So the solution I'd suggest is quite simple - instead of adding more villages to the campaign map to alleviate the 'emptiness' of the map, the devs should consider adding places like dungeons, caves and ruins, populated by different types of enemies, say about 5-10 in each scene. This could give the player an Elder Scrolls or Dark Souls-like experience.

And perhaps other quest locations can also be added, such as "Somebody's Farm", "Somebody's Mill", "Somebody's Manor" and so on, where thieving or npc rescue quests can play out, similar to the jailbreak quests we already have.

In a way dungeons already exist in the game in the form of bandit's hideouts, but the game treats bandits as a faction, so every time you try to clear out one of these you're forced to fight through hordes of bandits that are camped inside the hideout. But this is not how banditry works in the real world. Bandits, due to the nature of the 'work' they do, seldom trust each other, and so each band of bandits usually has separate leaders and you rarely see army sized bandit groups in real life, because of their mutual distrust towards each other. And if a bandit group ever has the luck to get to army size, it usually tends to become the local warlord, which in Mount and Blade terms would be equivalent to the lords and kings in the game.

So basically I'm advocating more bandit hideouts with smaller parties inside, and perhaps some of these hideouts can be tied to quests.

The player should also be able to construct his own base camp to garrison units inside. Units garrisoned inside the base camp should charge reduced wages. This way the game can also make distinction between ordinary units and companions, in that companions are willing to join you on your personal adventures, whereas dragging Sturgian Spearmen or Imperial Catapharacts into bandit's cave should reduce party morale, because such adventures are not part of a typical mercenary soldier's contract.

Furthermore, mercenary clans that are currently in the game should also get their own homebase camps, to make it easier for the player to find them. From a logical perspective this would also make sense because mercenary warbands aren't Mongol hordes. They spend the majority of their time in barracks, have to grow crops and cook just like villagers, and they probably also go to the nearby town for drinks and recreation every now and then, just like miners and construction workers in our own time. Mercenary bands should only travel in horde mode when on campaign. The same should apply to the player's warband - The player should not be running across the map with a 75 men strong party all the time. A companion party of 10 to 12 makes far more sense for most trips.

Edit: just realised I'm not alone in wanting these features. Here's another post on the forum giving similar suggestions https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/campaign-map-needs-more-interactive-features.437731/
 
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I really like those suggestions. I am just not sure about the losing morale thing. I mean I pay troops to do my bidding. I am clan chief and pay their wages and when I can send them to engage bandits in the open, then why not in their cave?! The thing about the companions, however, is correct, but I guess a T6 troop still has better stats and gear.

The mercs are important and should have their own bases where they recruit. But this could also come with a kind of 'hideout' instead a dedicated village. Why? Well, imagine what happens, when they sign a contract and are then pulled into war versus the lord that holds their lands. I guess, the mercs base will be visited by a random noble army and obliterated. I can imagine mercs working like a clan with clan member doing jobs. The clan leader might found a base of operations somewhere on the map and the merc NPCs might scatter around and recruiting troops delivering it to main army, where they are turned into merc troops like any recruit -> hidden pawn or whatever floats their boat.

The merc camps might work like mobile castles. If you do not like that idea then merc contract should forbid serving a kingdom at war with the fief's owner like the mercs set up in a village bound to a castle or town and when the ownership changes, the mercs are oblieged to not be at war with their new 'owner'.

I might even get a bit farther and would see the possibility of sending your own companions on 'merc' duty so they can be hired by others which eliminates their upkeep and gain some money for the clan with the danger of losing good men if a fight goes bad.
I also wonder whether you could have NPC 'officers' that are not companions or at least are not counted against them like that will occur, when a T6 gained enough XP or by daily chance for an T6. These men could be used as 'captains' in battle and give some of their limited perks to their assigned troops. If you have a fief, they could fulfill the role of castellan thus doing the recruitment for your castle by running around your fief's villages and recruit, then bring to garrison and train them. Maybe you can talk to them to make patrols which will go round and catch looters.

Bringing landmarks into the game like caves and ruins is also a good idea either by connecting them with min-quests or being meeting points for shady deals. You have mentioned a big potential in the game. I would like to see stuff like this happen to create a more 'living' world.
 
The ideas you explain in this thread are actually the things I miss in bannerlord!
I love the campaign map but it just feels so empty, I want more interaction!!
And at last who doesn't want to run a bandit hideout!
 
Hahahaha dungeons?? Dark soul like experience? Wow mate! I usually mind my own bussiness and don't get involved to discussions about something I disagree. But your suggestions are way too hilarious. You might just a little misunderstood the entire concept.
 
Dungeons? No.
I hate bandit hideouts too much to support any new form of this, with large, repetitive scenes where there are 10 bandits each. Running on foot to almost every one of them separately is tiring to the point that I avoid doing any quests that involve them, unless I have to.
Never in my several plays I had problem with early or mid-game, gathering bunch of recruits is fast, leveling them up also. Before I notice I am ready to join as mercenary (not the strongest one, but still) and can fight other lords.

As for camps, I imagine it should be implemented for any mercenary clan in game, at which case it would mean huge shift in game balance, as some mobile castles would pop up in different parts of the world, making new "borders" (despite leaving one castle behind and going for another one deeper in enemy's territory is not bothering any lord) and posing threats to caravans and parties. I agree that would be realistic and maybe fun as another type of battle, but I guess it would be too unpredictable to carry out in BL.
 
Dungeons? No.
I hate bandit hideouts too much to support any new form of this, with large, repetitive scenes where there are 10 bandits each. Running on foot to almost every one of them separately is tiring to the point that I avoid doing any quests that involve them, unless I have to.
Never in my several plays I had problem with early or mid-game, gathering bunch of recruits is fast, leveling them up also. Before I notice I am ready to join as mercenary (not the strongest one, but still) and can fight other lords.

As for camps, I imagine it should be implemented for any mercenary clan in game, at which case it would mean huge shift in game balance, as some mobile castles would pop up in different parts of the world, making new "borders" (despite leaving one castle behind and going for another one deeper in enemy's territory is not bothering any lord) and posing threats to caravans and parties. I agree that would be realistic and maybe fun as another type of battle, but I guess it would be too unpredictable to carry out in BL.
I should mention that current bandit hideout scenes feel wrong because not only are the scenes repetitive, they're too wide open and too big, because they are designed to hold hordes of enemies. What I'm advocating are small cave tunnels, ruined villa, abandoned watchtowers or fortresses with 5-10 enemies each, where you fight your way in and have to defeat enemies one by one, maybe with a couple companions, so the fights would be more like in the arena but with your own weapons and armor.

and not all caves have to be bandit hideouts. Somecan be populated by wild animals like boars, wolves, or even a tiger and so on. These can just use horse animations but with much higher charge damage like 20 for a boar, 50 for a wolf and 100 for a tiger for obvious reasons
 
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I should mention that current bandit hideout scenes feel wrong because not only are the scenes repetitive, they're too wide open and too big, because they are designed to hold hordes of enemies. What I'm advocating are small cave tunnels, ruined villa, abandoned watchtowers or fortresses with 5-10 enemies each, where you fight your way in and have to defeat enemies one by one, maybe with a couple companions, so the fights would be more like in the arena but with your own weapons and armor.
Okay, and after some quests and initial leveling they would be still just a landmark in late game as hideouts are now? I don't visualise high levels going there to beat some looters after getting ~20 T4 units.
 
Okay, and after some quests and initial leveling they would be still just a landmark in late game as hideouts are now? I don't visualise high levels going there to beat some looters after getting ~20 T4 units.
Like I said in the original post the game should differentiate between companions and normal units. There should be morale penalties to dragging your normal army into a spooky cave or a haunted villa. They're soldiers you hired for war, not your personal slave. So ideally you should only enter these locations with a couple companions even in late game. This would be a good way for the player to start over again after a major defeat on the battlefield.
 
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Okay, and after some quests and initial leveling they would be still just a landmark in late game as hideouts are now? I don't visualise high levels going there to beat some looters after getting ~20 T4 units.
How is that a reason to not add them?
There should be other things to do when you are a top tier lord or an emperor.

I so often see people on here arguing against adding more variety etc. by essentially saying "that's too similar to this feature which I don't like because it's too repetitive so I don't want anything similar added" "don't add more ways to make the early game more interesting because you won't need to use them once you've reached a higher level"
 
Like I said in the original post the game should differentiate between companions and normal units. There should be morale penalties to dragging your normal army into a spooky cave or a haunted villa. They're soldiers you hired for war, not your personal slave. So ideally you should only enter these locations with a couple companions even in late game. This would be a good way for the player to start over again after a major defeat on the battlefield.
Okay, this has some reason to it. But also would further discourage the exploration of them after getting some troops in early game, as morale can be more fragile than later. After-defeat recovery is a fair point, but also who would do those, when the only thing you are thinking about in this case is to get as much troops as you can?
Idk, just cannot imagine this implemented with a solid reason by TW. I guess mods would have to do.

How is that a reason to not add them?
There should be other things to do when you are a top tier lord or an emperor.

I so often see people on here arguing against adding more variety etc. by essentially saying "that's too similar to this feature which I don't like because it's too repetitive so I don't want anything similar added" "don't add more ways to make the early game more interesting because you won't need to use them once you've reached a higher level"
Then should late game be expanded, if you look for the things emperor should do, not roaming around in other people's old houses.

I see your irritation of such reasoning, but if something players don't like, there is reason to it, and making more similar activites will not improve on the game.
And complaining about no use to activities above some level is valid tbh, early game takes 4-5h usually, then you almost forget about looters and their hideouts, tournaments etc., you are a noble now, you have more important things to do. I would focus more on late game features, that reduce repetitiventess, not replicate early game's mechanics.

+1 basecamp would be cool to go from that to a castle and a nearby village to have own faction early on.
So you would like to have dynamic fief creation?
 
Okay, this has some reason to it. But also would further discourage the exploration of them after getting some troops in early game, as morale can be more fragile than later
Which is why you should be leaving the bulk of your army in your base camp most of the time if you don't own a fief yet. Armies are for war and you're not a Mongol horde. In peace time when you're not on campaign, you should be adventuring around the map with a couple companions instead of 67 Vlandian crossbowmen who after extensive travelling are bound to ask questions such as "are we there yet" "why are we marching all the time" "my legs are sore" "do we really have to come along when you're just delivering a message to the local lord" and so on
 
Basically you want the game to alternate between a Mount and Blade battle simulator and a small scale combat RPG. While this is possible, I don't think it is desirable to go full RPG with dungeon crawling, while leaving your army garrisoned.
Years ago I thought about how to make traveling the map more interesting and came up with the idea to spawn temporary, generated locations (farms, dwellings, small woods, a waterfall...) in your line of sight that you can visit and some scripted event would happen there, that might involve a small-scale skirmish, exploration for loot, or even a beginning of a larger quest.
That way if you are traveling around and are bored, you will get a chance to do something different for a change. If you are busy and just want to get from A to B fast, you would ignore those locations and they will vanish once out of sight.
 
Basically you want the game to alternate between a Mount and Blade battle simulator and a small scale combat RPG. While this is possible, I don't think it is desirable to go full RPG with dungeon crawling, while leaving your army garrisoned.
Years ago I thought about how to make traveling the map more interesting and came up with the idea to spawn temporary, generated locations (farms, dwellings, small woods, a waterfall...) in your line of sight that you can visit and some scripted event would happen there, that might involve a small-scale skirmish, exploration for loot, or even a beginning of a larger quest.
That way if you are traveling around and are bored, you will get a chance to do something different for a change. If you are busy and just want to get from A to B fast, you would ignore those locations and they will vanish once out of sight.
Yeah that works too. Doesn't have to be dungeon specifically like i said, any type of interesting locations would do really, abandoned farms, old watch towers, ruined forts, bandit occupied river crossings and so on.

But scale is important. If the player is able to bring an entire army into any of these locations repeatedly then all of these locations just become generic battlefield scenes. On the other hand not allowing the player to bring anything other than companions into the location isn't preferable either because in early game companions are kinda spenno to recruit. So imo the best way is to use morale penalty to discourage but not outright stopping player from bringing extra menpower into a location like this. Either that or the script can be adjusted to stop spawning if the players party size exceeds a certainnumber
 
Just a reality check, these kinds of suggestions are really mod ideas. The devs would never do anything like this. They already have a full plate of urgent stuff to do and only react to forum complaints about things that really need fixing, they are never idly browsing the forums looking for things to do.
Suggestion threads are basically a purely fan activity where people engage with other forumites following the game.
 
Just a reality check, these kinds of suggestions are really mod ideas. The devs would never do anything like this. They already have a full plate of urgent stuff to do and only react to forum complaints about things that really need fixing, they are never idly browsing the forums looking for things to do.
Suggestion threads are basically a purely fan activity where people engage with other forumites following the game.
+1
 
I agree with OP and Brytenwalda/Viking Conquest did it wonderfully, beyond the generic hideouts (that bannerlord makes too much use of) those also had places in the world map with unique scenes that had the toughest enemies in the game for single/small parties and gave some of best equipment you could get in the game.

It was awesome to fight the old warrior for his good armor, clear that dreadful Roman ruin for the awesome sword or win against the elf in the riddle contest for some good items too
 
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