Talworlds Updates Are Brutal

[Dabos37]

Oh good, just another "how hard this game is" without even try learn a bit about It. You can get 400-800 with Tannery Workshops in almost every town which I find pretty OP. Caravans can easily give you +1000 daily. Manual trading gives a huge amount of money if you buy iron in some Battania villages and sell the Iron in Ocs Hall (there are more towns which pay a lot for Iron too).

While the donate prisioners option has been overnerfed and I do not bother with donate prisioners anymore, It is still pretty doable to get influence in this game. I started some days ago a campaign playing as Sturgia Vassal and I have +1700 influence on day +700 and no other clan is even close to It.

The game is currently too easy and It is extremely easy to get rich pretty soon. Please try to learn some things before complaining about it

 

[paladinx333]

now it's the reduction to 1/20 (one twentieth!) of the influence gained when you give prisoners to your faction.

They had made playing a merc fairly viable and now they have made it much less so. The change isn't about influence, it's just about money. Again.

 

[Dabos37]

They had made playing a merc fairly viable and now they have made it much less so. The change isn't about influence, it's just about money. Again.

Ok, good point. On the other hand, any nerf to money is welcome, It is simply too easy to get It. But yes, the donate prisioners option has been vastly overnerfed and making it now useless is not the most elegant way to nerf the money gain.

 

[Mama Luke]

Even better if you can make javelins they go for 17K+ and that's for the 2nd lowest tier, top tier go for something like 60k which can't even be sold in most towns. It's broke as hell atm but it easy money once you get to that point.

Crafted with 1 Iron, 1 Hardwood and 1 Charcoal. This **** is broken as ****.

 

[drallim33]

Yeah but WHY is it broken, it's broken because they tried to nerf player money and failed miserably. Make equipment prices super high to drain the player's money but forgetting (or disregarding) that you could craft them. And that all the loot from battles uses the same inflated pricing.

It's broken because of nerfs.

It's very easy to cheese this unfinished game but that's exactly the point. There is no point nerfing things because you will never be able to achieve perfect balance in this game. All you do is reduce the number of viable options.

It doesn't matter how much you nerf everything some speedrunner will find a way to cheese the game in 5 minutes. So stop fighting against the players making 90% of the options into a boring grind, while the other 10% break the game. It's not an MMO, it doesn't matter if someone gets filthy rich.

People generally would prefer to play without cheesing and will avoid doing things like exploiting the blacksmithing voluntarily. But when you go and nerf everything so that the game is too grindy, then they will use the cheese option and have less fun because of it. When they would have preferred to just play "the intended way" but with a reasonable rate of progression.

Or they will install a mod and all the balancing work goes straight out the window.

The other thing is that a lot of the people saying "lol game too easy" aren't on their first playthrough. You know good spots for workshops, easy trade routes, how not to get captured by steppe bandits and lose all your trade goods, which skills are useless etc.

If you're not on your first playthrough you have cheat-code level meta knowledge, and balancing the game around that level of knowledge is basically impossible. You can give first time players a reasonably balanced game though, where they have some workshops that suck and maybe one or two that are really good. Finding the right spot for them takes a while and some experimentation which costs denars, by using meta knowledge from previous playthroughs you are essentially bypassing the cost of discovering those profitable things the first time.

What you need for balancing of subsequent playthroughs is economy randomisation, so you don't know where the grapes will grow, and don't know the best place to put an ironmonger. Not by nerfing everything into the ground so that some dude on his 8th playthrough isn't rich in the first hour.

 

[durbal]

Loot prices break economy and it makes no sense. Sell a bloody mail shirt torn off an enemy, sell it at Ye Olde Pawn Shoppe, and then use the money to buy 10 new mail shirts for your troops. TaleWorlds is seemingly unaware of why that's a problem.

 

[cyresdog]

Something that i don't really understand is why trading doesn't give you influence. I mean lets be real, traders back in the day were just as powerful as they are nowadays. They control the market, something that is essential for every single human being in a civilized part of the world.
I wish i could play as a tradelord, give Lords promises if they fight for me they get stuff or huge cuts of my income w/e. I mean yea i can buy them technically now but if that money comes from Trading or War is no difference, i can control every workshop in a city and yet i am unknown to all of them. Feels weird, i mean bruh... i am the reason your city is so rich, that wasn't you that was me, you are my bi**h now

 

[Highest of all Landers]

What is it with our generation and the need for instant gratification? I enjoy the early part of the game because everything is more of a challenge, the risks are higher.

As somebody else said, you can't tell other players how they should play, and I would say the same can be said about balance, people will always disagree when it comes to what is difficult and what is too easy. Personal preference on how quickly you should level, or how much renown and influence a battle should give is something that will have to be tweaked by mods.

Of course this does not mean that broken systems shouldn't be fixed, like the amount of money you can make from crafting weapons without too much investment in the Smith skill.

Something that i don't really understand is why trading doesn't give you influence. I mean lets be real, traders back in the day were just as powerful as they are nowadays. They control the market, something that is essential for every single human being in a civilized part of the world.
I wish i could play as a tradelord, give Lords promises if they fight for me they get stuff or huge cuts of my income w/e. I mean yea i can buy them technically now but if that money comes from Trading or War is no difference, i can control every workshop in a city and yet i am unknown to all of them. Feels weird, i mean bruh... i am the reason your city is so rich, that wasn't you that was me, you are my bi**h now

Well, at 250 Trade skill there is a perk that gives influence from workshops and caravans.

 

[Urbanski]

Yeah the prisoner influence nerf is way, way too brutal.

I know some of the kingdom policies generated a lot of influence and that needed to be balanced because that was passive and players were getting 50-100 influence a day for doing nothing. But prisoners is 'active', you've had to fight a battle to get the prisoners.

I understand donating looters / bandits should generate next to no influence but donating 80+ troops & lords only to get 2 influence or less is totally rubbish. Why 1/20th? That's not a nerf bat, it's a nerf nuke.

In my current play through as a Battanian vassal, there are currently no active policies that generate +influence, and now prisoners generate almost no influence. So my only option is to fight battle after battle to get 5-10 influence.

For me that is more broken than the excess we had before because it forces me to grind endless battles to get a measly influence increase. Right now the Battanians are at peace and have been for a while, so there is no way to generate influence apart from fighting looters / bandits at 0.2 influence per fight...whoop!

I'm waiting for Caladog or one of the other lords to introduce a negative influence policy to really put the death knell on this playthrough.

 

[educatedpleb]

I don't want to dumb friendly game, game should require more strategic moves for improvement. I liked nerfs. And should be more. But we should manege diffuculty from options. So we should able to play with our own settings. And i guess this can make all of us happy. I think they will add later like something smilar to what i said.

 

[Patwick]

What you need for balancing of subsequent playthroughs is economy randomisation, so you don't know where the grapes will grow, and don't know the best place to put an ironmonger. Not by nerfing everything into the ground so that some dude on his 8th playthrough isn't rich in the first hour.

Yeah and some games all the grain pop in sturgia, every other faction city are starving and you can't have any faction balance anymore.
It's not as simple as that to get a balanced economy and i think TW is nerfing hard to see the changes, to see what is impacted and in which proportion.

You first need to nerf hard, or up hard, then fine-tune, that's the only way i see for them to be thorough and achieve balance ! And when they have i believe a lot of different playstyle like you said the game was lacking will be viable.

I know that's the no go statement here but : The final product is at least in a year, the nerfing/buffing isn't the finality, it's just the tool for now

 

[Parkerg12]

Growth is to exponential ATM that is what they are trying to fix in order to "slow the game down". Which I believe will result in a better game as it will mean Quests , tournaments, hiring companions, buying new armor more meaningful.

 

[110951667]

So this is the 3rd or 4th update in a row that has caused me some concern. They're even talking about it on Youtube. First it was the reduction of workshop income, now it's the reduction to 1/20 (one twentieth!) of the influence gained when you give prisoners to your faction. For those who don't remember, that's about the only reasonable way to get paid as a mercenary (which is essentially how you slog through the first half of the game in their current single player mode) because your income is based entirely on your influence. And it drops every day too!

The influence twist sucks indeed. I tried to play as pure mercenary while turning down the rediculously price of armors and weapons, wanted to have a playthrough that relys on king's generous payment based on my die trying hard work, but the payment was off. The high tier troops and lords really need to provide a decent influence income. The low tier doesn't matter, but by turning in those good one need to have a impact.

What is going on? I've put down this game until someone at Taleworlds figures out their head from their ass because at this point it's unplayable. The best workshop in the game manages to get me 30 silver after paying about 16000. On top of that, I can't even progress to having a chance of lordship until I finish this stupid clan leveling, which now is next to impossible thanks to yet more changes!

The workshops sucks too, but not in a way you mentioned. It seems to work in this way: (the local price of finished product - the local price of used material) * work amount = income. So earning only 30 denars was more likely due to the wrong choice of workshop type in a wrong region.
Yet the problem persists. It's the work amount problem. In the game, you can't increase the work amount, while there are NPCs in towns called Artisians who were logically supposed to provide more labours for your workshop in order to increase the work amount. So that in a region that has a lot of olive, you could start a olive press business and have it profitable enough to beat a tannery because there are a great amount of raw olive than hide, so with more labour hired you could massively produce olive oil.
By allowing Artisian NPCs to provide more workers in a town, these NPC would finnally have a meaning to exist in the game who work like a HR agent or union manager.
If TW think workshops could use a nerf, then they should think about the rents and the protection fees paying to merchants/gang leaders/fief owners. So that these characters could also recieve some meaning of being existing.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

You first need to nerf hard, or up hard, then fine-tune, that's the only way i see for them to be thorough and achieve balance ! And when they have i believe a lot of different playstyle like you said the game was lacking will be viable.

I agree with you. I think the problem is that, from the player's perspective, it seems like TW likes to nerf hard, but they buff with the lightest feather touch. Its like "This is too powerful. Lets reduce it by 800% ... Now its too weak. We'll buff it by .05%"

 

[abc123456]

So this is the 3rd or 4th update in a row that has caused me some concern. They're even talking about it on Youtube. First it was the reduction of workshop income, now it's the reduction to 1/20 (one twentieth!) of the influence gained when you give prisoners to your faction. For those who don't remember, that's about the only reasonable way to get paid as a mercenary (which is essentially how you slog through the first half of the game in their current single player mode) because your income is based entirely on your influence. And it drops every day too!

What is going on? I've put down this game until someone at Taleworlds figures out their head from their ass because at this point it's unplayable. The best workshop in the game manages to get me 30 silver after paying about 16000. On top of that, I can't even progress to having a chance of lordship until I finish this stupid clan leveling, which now is next to impossible thanks to yet more changes!

What is going on?! Can we just play the damn game?

Have you tried setting everything to easy? Game was and is still too easy. Once you figure it out it's not a challenge at all.

 

[GitiUsir]

Spoiler: drallim33: There is no point nerfing things because you will never be able to achieve perfect balance in this game.

Yeah but WHY is it broken, it's broken because they tried to nerf player money and failed miserably. Make equipment prices super high to drain the player's money but forgetting (or disregarding) that you could craft them. And that all the loot from battles uses the same inflated pricing.

It's broken because of nerfs.

It's very easy to cheese this unfinished game but that's exactly the point. There is no point nerfing things because you will never be able to achieve perfect balance in this game. All you do is reduce the number of viable options.

It doesn't matter how much you nerf everything some speedrunner will find a way to cheese the game in 5 minutes. So stop fighting against the players making 90% of the options into a boring grind, while the other 10% break the game. It's not an MMO, it doesn't matter if someone gets filthy rich.

People generally would prefer to play without cheesing and will avoid doing things like exploiting the blacksmithing voluntarily. But when you go and nerf everything so that the game is too grindy, then they will use the cheese option and have less fun because of it. When they would have preferred to just play "the intended way" but with a reasonable rate of progression.

Or they will install a mod and all the balancing work goes straight out the window.

The other thing is that a lot of the people saying "lol game too easy" aren't on their first playthrough. You know good spots for workshops, easy trade routes, how not to get captured by steppe bandits and lose all your trade goods, which skills are useless etc.

If you're not on your first playthrough you have cheat-code level meta knowledge, and balancing the game around that level of knowledge is basically impossible. You can give first time players a reasonably balanced game though, where they have some workshops that suck and maybe one or two that are really good. Finding the right spot for them takes a while and some experimentation which costs denars, by using meta knowledge from previous playthroughs you are essentially bypassing the cost of discovering those profitable things the first time.

What you need for balancing of subsequent playthroughs is economy randomisation, so you don't know where the grapes will grow, and don't know the best place to put an ironmonger. Not by nerfing everything into the ground so that some dude on his 8th playthrough isn't rich in the first hour.

The right way: analyze the system, find the reason it doesn't work, make a new model, does it work? then and only THEN tweak it.

Do I think there is a model or game design behind all this nonsense? NO. I just see a vague tendency to copy paste the same mechanics from Warband with the same philosophy: just randomness here and there, to give it the appearance of reality without any logic behind.

I.e. Politics. Why those conquered fiefs go to one clan or the other? I guess influence spent gives some weight and then there is a random number and that's it.
Diplomacy. Why a kingdom goes to war? There are some weights based on power and situation and then there is a random number and the winner is...

Player's experience and gameplay design are not in the equation.

 

[Because]

Yeah but WHY is it broken, it's broken because they tried to nerf player money and failed miserably. Make equipment prices super high to drain the player's money but forgetting (or disregarding) that you could craft them. And that all the loot from battles uses the same inflated pricing.

It's broken because of nerfs.

It doesn't matter how much you nerf everything some speedrunner will find a way to cheese the game in 5 minutes. So stop fighting against the players making 90% of the options into a boring grind, while the other 10% break the game. It's not an MMO, it doesn't matter if someone gets filthy rich.

People generally would prefer to play without cheesing and will avoid doing things like exploiting the blacksmithing voluntarily. But when you go and nerf everything so that the game is too grindy, then they will use the cheese option and have less fun because of it. When they would have preferred to just play "the intended way" but with a reasonable rate of progression.

Or they will install a mod and all the balancing work goes straight out the window.

The other thing is that a lot of the people saying "lol game too easy" aren't on their first playthrough. You know good spots for workshops, easy trade routes, how not to get captured by steppe bandits and lose all your trade goods, which skills are useless etc.

What you need for balancing of subsequent playthroughs is economy randomisation, so you don't know where the grapes will grow, and don't know the best place to put an ironmonger. Not by nerfing everything into the ground so that some dude on his 8th playthrough isn't rich in the first hour.

Brilliantly put sir, I agree with all of the above, Make things a bit more random to keep it fresh for more veteran players on their next play through rather than tricky until you work out for yourself (or more likely look up on a guide/forum how to exploit the static setup). I have only really found smithing and armour prices (be it loot or buying) to be breaking the economy of the game. Trading can get you rich if you do it right for long enough, but that is how it should and it is nothing compared to the snitching & loot if the RNG likes you.

Personally you should make all quality standard gear reasonably priced (nerfing looting and smithing) and then have Legendary versions of the standard gear with fractionally better stats (+5 say) that can only be bought in shops or made at the highest level of smithing that can act as a late game cash sink or a mid game goal and which retails for a lot less than you bought it for.

 

[HeIsHephaestion]

Unleash the tools!
The game will be immaculate by sunday..

 

[stevehoos]

Javelin for 100k. Is it gold plated? This is far from what I thought this feature would be.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Day 67 and I voted for myself for my first town and got it with all the influence I gained just beating lords, taking out said town garrison by myself and every lord that tried to stop me.
You do good you get what you want.
You don't gotta do nothin but beat em up.