Losing entire armies in one battle needs to be changed

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For those saying 'just retreat', it doesn't work.
I believe I understand your reasoning but it doesn't work with how battles are fought in Bannerlord. For one, Bannerlord is incredibly limited in strategic maneuverability and tactical flexibility and feedback. Let me compare it with Total War for a minute as it is the closest we'll get to an authentic medieval battlefield. Right, in Total War (used semi-synonymously with 'in real life') all your infantry units, say, are not a big fat line like in Bannerlord, they come in their own organized blocks of 50-150, this means you have considerably more options in forming your army's starting formation than you ever will in Bannerlord, and by the way you can't even organize your troop's starting positions either. Now onto my main point: When you make an attack in Total War, you don't go all in, never, that's a good way to risk your entire army, instead you send your infantry to test the enemy, distract them or break their lines, push them back, what have you, while the rest of the forces remain behind covering their flanks, waiting for an opportunity to flank the enemy lines etc. which again means if the odds are turning against you and you have no reason to risk your men's lives further, you call back your attacking infantry, and retreat in an organized manner. You can probably see why you can't do that in Bannerlord. There is only one formation for infantry, missile and melee cavalry each, meaning if you wanna make an attack, you send all your infantry troops, and as the combat currently stands in Bannerlord, they get melted ridicilously fast, and your men cannot even recover / retreat from that. No relief forces, no anything, the slightest mistake? They're all gone. As OP has said this is frustrating, inauthentic, illogical and need I go on?


There are more issues that make Bannerlord, or M&B battles in general so less challening, rewarding and exciting than say a Total War, which I understand might be an unfair comparison but the idea is there. Let me try and add a few to OP's suggestions if that's okay.

- Larger army / battle sizes. Being one of my highly anticipated features for Bannerlord, I am gravely disappointed to see a setback from Warband in that lords now either carry 50 troops, or 150 recruits. I would guess that this limitation is there so the player can catch up with the militaries of other lords (even as some unknown vagabond), but I believe it would make much more sense to make recruitment and training easier (more passive training activities, still time consuming), increasing army sizes.

- I thought of some others as well but ultimately where the point they all lead to is this: Take inspiration from games that were successful in implementing what M&B is lacking. I hope we can all agree this game has to be more than 'Warband graphics and animation overhaul'.


Edit: just realised OP's already mentioned the topic on my first paragraphs, eh.
 
devs already said they will be fixing this next patch somewhere in the forums
the mostly recruit armies and the lords escaping chance

Their fixes are just new band-aids. Having entire armies vanish after a defeat is annoying for the player and debilitating for the AI.

Think about this: if entire armies didn't disappear, we wouldn't need band-aids like lords being in prison for slightly longer because lords would actually escape the battle and go back to safety to regroup and defend or plan their next attack. Instead we're just adjusting the timer on when they respawn with magical conjured armies.
 
Their fixes are just new band-aids. Having entire armies vanish after a defeat is annoying for the player and debilitating for the AI.
If you as a developer want to keep the community happy with walls of text fixing bugs that a person or two had, you won't have time for a proper surgery. And that's where they seem to be going for the time being, unless they're for some reason hiding their ambitious plans from us.
 
The problem is that people use charge instead of advance.
Charge basically tells your men to go full berserker after the nearest enemy and should only be used when the battle is won.

Advance will keep your men in formation while advancing.

It doesn't change that it will still end in a blob due to ai just charging in, but your men will at least hold their formation.
I dont know about you, but when I out my empire infantryman into adcance while in shiekdwall or line formation then they awkwardly skirmish and break formation like retards.
 
There should be some way that let's You and AI retreat after lost battle with whoever is alive and didn't run from the battlefield. At least when You don't fall in battle and order a retreat. Of course to secure this option from abuse to make the game easier it should require that You engage your enemy (exchange some blows), order every group to retreat while in battle map and wait till they reach the border then You yourself should go through the border. If You just click tab and retreat it should start autocalc battle.

Edit: all wounded troops and companions should be captured
 
I dont know about you, but when I out my empire infantryman into adcance while in shiekdwall or line formation then they awkwardly skirmish and break formation like retards.
If I order my men to hold close to the enemy they will (usually) stay in formation. So I advance them until I can see the opponent is close and then I order them to hold. Sometimes they will take a couple of steps forward, but normally no more than that.
Sometimes though, if the enemy is stringed they decide they're Leonidas in 300 and starts hacking through enemies until they're completely isolated... My guess is that they react to the first close enemy and then the next that's a few steps behind him and then the next and so forth.
 
For those who talk about how archers or infantry act in a battle : You are off topic ! Go open a new thread ! Fix or change it will not change anything from the topic of this thread ! You make this thread a mess and we cannot talk about how fix it.

For the main topic : Lord should run away like the player can do when they are catch at 50 vs 500 guys. They should lose their wounded and also a small part of the troup, but they need to be able to escape a hopeless battle.
Or they should also propose to pay to a greedy lord the right to go back home with all of their mens.

During a 500 vs 500 battle, when a side win, the losing side should not be totally destroy. Half of the lord should retreat win the survivor from all party (I capture one lord, but his woundead soldiers join another lord) and have a speed boost for run away. Of course, the losing army should disband.

Also, when you run away or retreat from a loosing battle, the troup lost should mostly be low tiers troup. Losing half mens, but recruit one is painless than losing half mens randomly.
 
I think an army should never be fully defeated unless something exceptional happens.

Big and risky battles are fun. Players are forced to suck the fun out of themselves right now, because if you lose your army first you need to visit 20 cities to get horses back in order and then do 50 looter battles (not even auto resolved) to get back a fighting army. That is not engaging gameplay.

If both sides inflict X amounts of casualties to each other, then the losing army still gets renown, loot and everything and gets to retreat at least with its wounded members and those that ran away.

Wars should more be a war of money than a war of those very man you have with you right now. If even for the player it is a long process of raising a new and effective army, then you don't need to look far as to why the AI is fighting mostly with recruits.
 
Use this mod:

Combined with Health Rebalanced mod it makes for a bit more enjoyable combat. It's not perfect, but somewhat helps until TW gets the fix out.
I can second this. It has two fold effect it makes it so your battles actually last longer and melee moving to archers actually have a chance to make it. I combine it with the mod "armor does something" and melee are much more viable in this game. I stopped playing with only archers and cav units only.
https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/129?tab=files
 
If both sides inflict X amounts of casualties to each other, then the losing army still gets renown, loot and everything and gets to retreat at least with its wounded members and those that ran away.
Why should you get renown if you lose a battle? That makes no sense, if anything you should lose it. Every loser of battles should lose renown, be it player or AI... You lost a big battle? Lose a tier from your clan, get your party a -30 debuff in terms of numbers. Want it back? Go fight some more looters, learn more tactics...
 
For those saying 'just retreat', it doesn't work.
I believe I understand your reasoning but it doesn't work with how battles are fought in Bannerlord. For one, Bannerlord is incredibly limited in strategic maneuverability and tactical flexibility and feedback. Let me compare it with Total War for a minute as it is the closest we'll get to an authentic medieval battlefield. Right, in Total War (used semi-synonymously with 'in real life') all your infantry units, say, are not a big fat line like in Bannerlord, they come in their own organized blocks of 50-150, this means you have considerably more options in forming your army's starting formation than you ever will in Bannerlord, and by the way you can't even organize your troop's starting positions either. Now onto my main point: When you make an attack in Total War, you don't go all in, never, that's a good way to risk your entire army, instead you send your infantry to test the enemy, distract them or break their lines, push them back, what have you, while the rest of the forces remain behind covering their flanks, waiting for an opportunity to flank the enemy lines etc. which again means if the odds are turning against you and you have no reason to risk your men's lives further, you call back your attacking infantry, and retreat in an organized manner. You can probably see why you can't do that in Bannerlord. There is only one formation for infantry, missile and melee cavalry each, meaning if you wanna make an attack, you send all your infantry troops, and as the combat currently stands in Bannerlord, they get melted ridicilously fast, and your men cannot even recover / retreat from that. No relief forces, no anything, the slightest mistake? They're all gone. As OP has said this is frustrating, inauthentic, illogical and need I go on?


There are more issues that make Bannerlord, or M&B battles in general so less challening, rewarding and exciting than say a Total War, which I understand might be an unfair comparison but the idea is there. Let me try and add a few to OP's suggestions if that's okay.

- Larger army / battle sizes. Being one of my highly anticipated features for Bannerlord, I am gravely disappointed to see a setback from Warband in that lords now either carry 50 troops, or 150 recruits. I would guess that this limitation is there so the player can catch up with the militaries of other lords (even as some unknown vagabond), but I believe it would make much more sense to make recruitment and training easier (more passive training activities, still time consuming), increasing army sizes.

- I thought of some others as well but ultimately where the point they all lead to is this: Take inspiration from games that were successful in implementing what M&B is lacking. I hope we can all agree this game has to be more than 'Warband graphics and animation overhaul'.


Edit: just realised OP's already mentioned the topic on my first paragraphs, eh.

I think battles in this game are closer to real battles than battles in Total War series. Medieval armies just were not trained that well. Professional armies could manouver very well, but Medievat armies were not professionals and they didn't have radios so it would have been impossible to order your army as precisely as in Total War. It would have been possible to place your army more precisely before battle start, but after that General just doesn't have much control. Just wait or everyone charge. Thats it they don't hear your voice and flags or bugles doesn't work when general is fighting in front and most likely wouldn't work that well without professional army anyway.

Retreat totally work. Most cheesy and OP tactic in game is to use archer army and retreat just before melee starts. You get some casualties because enemy have archers and cavalry too. But can easily slaughter few thousand peasants with very little casualties even when you have lot smaller army. Combat stops 10 sec after you are out of area and then you can fight again and armies starts from distance.
 
I think battles in this game are closer to real battles than battles in Total War series. Medieval armies just were not trained that well. Professional armies could manouver very well, but Medievat armies were not professionals and they didn't have radios so it would have been impossible to order your army as precisely as in Total War. It would have been possible to place your army more precisely before battle start, but after that General just doesn't have much control. Just wait or everyone charge. Thats it they don't hear your voice and flags or bugles doesn't work when general is fighting in front and most likely wouldn't work that well without professional army anyway.

Retreat totally work. Most cheesy and OP tactic in game is to use archer army and retreat just before melee starts. You get some casualties because enemy have archers and cavalry too. But can easily slaughter few thousand peasants with very little casualties even when you have lot smaller army. Combat stops 10 sec after you are out of area and then you can fight again and armies starts from distance.

Even in medieval warfare there were drums, banners and horse messangers other signals in big battles. Of course they weren't efficient in a way You could tell what happens with part of the army that You don't see or when you're engaged in melee but still they made it possible to keep some order in battle.
Other thing is that some of the biggest battles were fought for many days with both sides retreating for night (there were also night raids on enemy camps). People didn't like to fight at night especially in times where only natural light sources were available.

They should give an option to wait till daytime to fight and change the reinforcement mechanic. Right now as soon as You destroy the army spawned at start it's easy to win even in negative odds cause reinforcement run to place of fight without any order and they are easy targets especially for cavalry (same goes for player if he's the one getting reinforcements).

They should change it to separate battles but people will hate more loading screens. I don't believe they do much about current reinforcement system.
 
Why should you get renown if you lose a battle? That makes no sense, if anything you should lose it. Every loser of battles should lose renown, be it player or AI... You lost a big battle? Lose a tier from your clan, get your party a -30 debuff in terms of numbers. Want it back? Go fight some more looters, learn more tactics...
Just no
 
The biggest problem with battles is the blob.
When you order your line of infantry to attack they all go after the closest enemy and just collapse into the massive blob, disregarding any form of a cohesive line. The only way to maintain a line is if you have your men in shield wall formation and allow the enemy to come to you.
There needs to be a larger radius for a soldiers collision bubble, and they need to implement more "hold formation" type commands to improve cohesiveness in the formation. Basically new command features to manage your infantry and improvements to AI so they dont just collapse into a massive blob. So many of the amazing things about battles and combat in this game are ruined as you watch a fight turn into a massive 300 man mosh pit.
use the advance command instead of charge and they seem to hold formation
 
Yep slow movement speed of the battle ..stop my formation troops tuning to chase cav that have gone behind the line chasing them half ways back... and chasing men on the flanks that are retreating leave that to my cav.. or give me an order to keep them in formation. ..
Saying this. all my years playing WB i never had a mixed Army just cav units. and could over run any army . with BL i have seen that you can not do that and thats good. its making me use mixed troops so thats a good thing... they are doing it right just needs a fix here and there.
l
 
I think an army should never be fully defeated unless something exceptional happens.

Why do you think that? Because historically the losing side was completely and utterly wiped out. Complete destruction of the losing army didn't stop until the gunpowder age when gunfire could cover a retreat and units weren't locked in melee until the bitter end.

There were no retreats. An army would fight until routed and then they would be ridden down and slaughtered to a man.
 
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