Attempting balance in a feature incomplete game is a bad idea.

[Gambles]

I agree with ya OP, but this really shouldn't need to be said. They're literally still MAKING the game, why the hell are they trying to do fine refinements to caravan economy based on RNG? There's absolutely zero logic to it.

 

[SmattlePattle]

I agree with ya OP, but this really shouldn't need to be said. They're literally still MAKING the game, why the hell are they trying to do fine refinements to caravan economy based on RNG? There's absolutely zero logic to it.

Taleworlds is like your really cool uncle with great ideas but he just smokes too much pot and never gets around to finishing them. He's awesome and you love him but your always disappointed that he just doesn't... get it together and do a little more.

 

[Nordmann]

Taleworlds is like your really cool uncle with great ideas but he just smokes too much pot and never gets around to finishing them. He's awesome and you love him but your always disappointed that he just doesn't... get it together and do a little more.

Sums them up quite nicely! ?

 

[BattanianDruid]

The more I think about it the more I tend to conclude that economic balance is probably the last thing to be achieved in this game given most things can effect the economy.

What annoys me about the caravan thing is they didn't really add a new feature to caravans, which would make sense. If they were like "Hey your Caravans can get raided now BUT you can ride along with them and we put in a few caravan defense battlemaps, and you can tell them to stick to safer routes from reduced profit with less risk" it'd be cool. Most people would think its fleshing out a component of the game to be deeper - exactly what EA is for!

This is pretty much my thought on the whole thing too. Mexxico mentioned some really good potential features for caravans they'll look into somewhere down the line that would make playing a trade focused character way more immersive and fun and I am super excited to see if any of those ideas come to fruition.

But if they were going to overhaul caravans it really should have waited until those more complex systems were in place. As-is caravans were made less lucrative rather than more engaging. I already took down my caravans in my late game because I didn't need their income any more and wanted my companions back to lead parties. Now I am not sure I'll use caravans early game either.

 

[adrakken]

I disagree whole heartedly. Bugs need to be fixed, what is implemented needs to be balanced and since not one of us posting here has any idea what features have not been activated yet we have no idea if what they are adjusting is actually affected by those features being added. Its very possible they need to fix what is currently in game BEFORE adding the other features.

So right now every complaint is what? Baseless. Information is lacking.

 

[SmattlePattle]

I disagree whole heartedly. Bugs need to be fixed, what is implemented needs to be balanced and since not one of us posting here has any idea what features have not been activated yet we have no idea if what they are adjusting is actually affected by those features being added. Its very possible they need to fix what is currently in game BEFORE adding the other features.

So right now every complaint is what? Baseless. Information is lacking.

What bug? There wasn't a caravan bug.
How is it balanced now? Its not. There's a RNG mechanic that's unreliable with no player interaction. Now you might less make money. Now you might not make any money. Now you might have to chase a companion down periodically. How is that balance?

I know you probably don't like me because I disagree with you in other threads, but come on, what argument are you making here? That nobody should criticize an update? That sounds like a real disservice to TW considering player feedback and criticism is the whole point of EA. They don't need people whiteknighting them - they're a big boy/girl company that just made bank - they need honest feedback.

This is pretty much my thought on the whole thing too. Mexxico mentioned some really good potential features for caravans they'll look into somewhere down the line that would make playing a trade focused character way more immersive and fun and I am super excited to see if any of those ideas come to fruition.

But if they were going to overhaul caravans it really should have waited until those more complex systems were in place. As-is caravans were made less lucrative rather than more engaging. I already took down my caravans in my late game because I didn't need their income any more and wanted my companions back to lead parties. Now I am not sure I'll use caravans early game either.

My early game has always been setting up a caravan or two while leading my own, building myself up as a merchant to see the world, meet the notables, and get my skills past potato-level. I was hoping when Mexxico first raised the topic that this would be something to enhance that gameplay.

 

[adrakken]

What bug? There wasn't a caravan bug.
How is it balanced now? Its not. There's a RNG mechanic that's unreliable with no player interaction. Now you might less make money. Now you might not make any money. Now you might have to chase a companion down periodically. How is that balance?

I know you probably don't like me because I disagree with you in other threads

I dont hate anyone. And you disagree because you always take things out of context or completely ignore everything you dont like seeing.

Case in point. You ask what bug because you ignored this part of my post

we have no idea if what they are adjusting is actually affected by those features being added. Its very possible they need to fix what is currently in game BEFORE adding the other features.

So rage on blindly with your desperate need to toss out context so you can act like your opinion holds water because...

So right now every complaint is what? Baseless. Information is lacking.

You dont have the information but want to act like you know what you are talking about and all in an EARLY ACCESS game where this is part of the game development process and has been since games started doing alpha and beta testing with people outside the company back in the late 1990s.

 

[VerlorenMind]

It just feels... unfocused. They're trying to fix everything at once, and it just seems sloppy. They need a coherent plan for features and balance changes, not just winging it in a day based on community responses alone.

 

[kingslomein]

Agreed. +1

 

[cnconrad]

I agree 100%

 

[Nordmann]

It just feels... unfocused. They're trying to fix everything at once, and it just seems sloppy. They need a coherent plan for features and balance changes, not just winging it in a day based on community responses alone.

Well said. The lack of a publicly visible roadmap does make me wonder if they even have a plan, or if they are indeed winging it day to day.

 

[SmattlePattle]

It just feels... unfocused. They're trying to fix everything at once, and it just seems sloppy. They need a coherent plan for features and balance changes, not just winging it in a day based on community responses alone.

It doesn't have to be tomorrow but I think planning to structure a roadmap and release it would be a good idea at this point. It doesn't mean they're 100% committed to it, roadmaps can change, but it shows a holistic approach to the game.

 

[SmattlePattle]

I dont hate anyone. And you disagree because you always take things out of context or completely ignore everything you dont like seeing.

Case in point. You ask what bug because you ignored this part of my post



So rage on blindly with your desperate need to toss out context so you can act like your opinion holds water because...



You dont have the information but want to act like you know what you are talking about and all in an EARLY ACCESS game where this is part of the game development process and has been since games started doing alpha and beta testing with people outside the company back in the late 1990s.

To be blunt; in my opinion you're not very coherent with how you express yourself. I'm not angry or the one getting worked up here. I'm not acting like anything. I'm expressing an opinion on things. I'm well aware of it being early access. The crux of my argument is about how to do early access productively. Early access is just that; early access - it can be done in myriad of different ways, some good, some bad, some mixed.

External beta testing/alpha testing is also irrelevant to what I'm saying because again, there are different ways of structuring how you do it. I am making an argument for the way I believe to do it best. Pointing out its part of the development process is missing the mark entirely because this whole thread is a discussion on how to do a development process.

In my mind you just sound like someone who sees any criticism of how TW is conducting EA and updates as some sort of personal attack and threat on them & you when in reality we're all people who want to see this game succeed. Being a sycophant doesn't help you or them. None of us would be here posting if we didn't like this game and the potential it has.

 

[Mount On Blade]

The devs aren't trying to fix everything at once. They're pushing out small incremental updates to the public for playtesting, they're not giving us everything they're working on. It would be ridiculous to assume that.

These threads need to stop appearing and people need to have a clue of what game development is like.

 

[adrakken]

To be blunt; in my opinion you're not very coherent with how you express yourself. I'm not angry or the one getting worked up here.The crux of my argument is about how to do early access productively.

You should keep ignoring points and context while telling someone correcting you that they are the ones that are angry. Calm people can argue the points, irrational people cannot. Perhaps English is not your first language. Either way, you acting as if you know how to develop a game properly is a joke. You have no clue what they are working on, why, or what is made that hasnt been implemented yet. You are literally flying blind and making assumptions. .

 

[Mount On Blade]

You should keep ignoring points and context while telling someone correcting you that they are the ones that are angry. Calm people can argue the points, irrational people cannot. Perhaps English is not your first language. Either way, you acting as if you know how to develop a game properly is a joke. You have no clue what they are working on, why, or what is made that hasnt been implemented yet. You are literally flying blind and making assumptions. .

Finally someone talking sense, god bless you Peter L. Tinkerson

 

[SmattlePattle]

The devs aren't trying to fix everything at once. They're pushing out small incremental updates to the public for playtesting, they're not giving us everything they're working on. It would be ridiculous to assume that.

These threads need to stop appearing and people need to have a clue of what game development is like.

You need to read threads properly and engage with what people are saying.

Nobody said the Dev's are trying to fix everything at once but you. You're responding to yourself.
Nobody said they are, or should, give us everything they're working on. It would be ridiculous to assume that, as ridiculous as going into a thread where nobody has and stating it. As ridiculous as creating straw man arguments and crop-dusting a thread with them and then making proclamations about what should posted. So ridiculous.

I'm going to summarize the argument once, really simply, in case you want to actually engage with it and not the arguments you create for yourself to disagree with:

Incremental updates that introduce balance attempts with no gameplay value are bad (If you don't think this was a balance attempt, go read Mexxico's posts on caravans). The best way to do early access is attempt to get all the features in the game, ensure they're not fundamentally glitched/bugged, and then balance for experience.

If you want a side indulgence argument: You can't management dynamical systems other than at a holistic level. You cannot manage something holistically if its missing its features.

You should keep ignoring points and context while telling someone correcting you that they are the ones that are angry. Calm people can argue the points, irrational people cannot. Perhaps English is not your first language. Either way, you acting as if you know how to develop a game properly is a joke. You have no clue what they are working on, why, or what is made that hasnt been implemented yet. You are literally flying blind and making assumptions. .

I'm sorry I've been trying to be polite but English clearly isn't your first and if I've ignored any of your context its because you're really incoherent. We know the game isn't feature complete, we know a good handful of reasoning behind the caravan changes (See Mexxico's forum discussions about it, he's quite frank and open which is lovely of him.), and that's enough to have opinions about what's being done and discuss it. While it's always nice, you don't need 100% of the facts to have an opinion - otherwise you could never have any opinion on anything.

 

[Gambles]

To be blunt; in my opinion you're not very coherent with how you express yourself. I'm not angry or the one getting worked up here. I'm not acting like anything. I'm expressing an opinion on things. I'm well aware of it being early access. The crux of my argument is about how to do early access productively. Early access is just that; early access - it can be done in myriad of different ways, some good, some bad, some mixed.

External beta testing/alpha testing is also irrelevant to what I'm saying because again, there are different ways of structuring how you do it. I am making an argument for the way I believe to do it best. Pointing out its part of the development process is missing the mark entirely because this whole thread is a discussion on how to do a development process.

In my mind you just sound like someone who sees any criticism of how TW is conducting EA and updates as some sort of personal attack and threat on them & you when in reality we're all people who want to see this game succeed. Being a sycophant doesn't help you or them. None of us would be here posting if we didn't like this game and the potential it has.

I'd seriously just ignore the guy, he's got multiple threads of arguments with people right now. I doubt you'll get anywhere as his ironclad defense is "you don't know".Hahaha.

 

[adrakken]

While it's always nice, you don't need 100% of the facts to have an opinion - otherwise you could never have any opinion on anything.

You dont even have 1% of the facts. You DO have a opinion 100% based in nothing (you do not know how they are delegating work or even one single thing they have planned) and seeing how you respond to everyone that disagrees with you in every single thread, its clear you are only here to cause trouble.

But I do thank you for letting us all know that you have no issues forming an opinion with no facts and defending them when people easily counter them as if you know better. How the hell can you even try to defend your opinion when you know its not based on facts?!? That means you dont KNOW if the counter points are correct or not. Talk about lacking in reason.

 

[Mount On Blade]

You need to read threads properly and engage with what people are saying.

Nobody said the Dev's are trying to fix everything at once but you. You're responding to yourself.
Nobody said they are, or should, give us everything they're working on. It would be ridiculous to assume that, as ridiculous as going into a thread where nobody has and stating it.

It just feels... unfocused. They're trying to fix everything at once, and it just seems sloppy. They need a coherent plan for features and balance changes, not just winging it in a day based on community responses alone.

Do you need a tissue? There seems to be brain tumour coming out of your nose.