Horse movement and impaling

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dochtorgajo

Squire
Are there any plans to finally look a little into dressage or bull fighting to see that horse doesnt need a runway to speed up or slow down from standing still to gallop, or that it can pass to the side quite easily if taught to do so and doesnt need to turn like a car in 40m circle?

Maybe to implement simply like: horse goes to the side if you are pressing movement key to the side only. The bigger your speed the smaller the angle under which it moves to the side. (in another words 90 degree if standing and about 45 degree in lighter canter)

This should make cavalry warfare a little more about skill and a little deadlier against singled out opponents or scattered infantry, also give a little more chance to sword armed cavalry when fighting lancers. It would be really nice to see this in mount and blade game finally.  :smile:

Also wouldnt it be better to have horses stopped by braced bayonet rather than killed outright? If they stop in front of infantry they can be shot easily, while having them killed without infantrymen loosing their weapons and being tossed away by falling horse (ruining their formation and day) is simply silly.

What about dead bodies? Could they be made to produce obstacles and prohibit horses from running full speed through a part of land littered with corpses?
 
dochtorgajo said:
This should make cavalry warfare a little more about skill and a little deadlier against singled out opponents or scattered infantry, also give a little more chance to sword armed cavalry when fighting lancers. It would be really nice to see this in mount and blade game finally.  :smile:

Also wouldnt it be better to have horses stopped by braced bayonet rather than killed outright? If they stop in front of infantry they can be shot easily, while having them killed without infantrymen loosing their weapons and being tossed away by falling horse (ruining their formation and day) is simply silly.

What about dead bodies? Could they be made to produce obstacles and prohibit horses from running full speed through a part of land littered with corpses?
Click to expand...

Its actualy quite simple to kill a lone infantry man in the open, Ive done it so many times, even when they see me coming at them a ready their bayonet.
Lancers... Stand still, block down, let them crash into you, stab them to death, most Ive fought dont seem to know that my horse cant block down...

That stoping before the bayonet seems like a good idea, if I were a horse I wouldnt charge into shiny, pointy metal. But then there is a problem, if the muskets have already fired then cavalry would just pick the square from outside, lancers would poke the square to death, a way to kill infantry in a square while mounted and sword has already been found by beta testers, and dragoons just discharge their carbines into the squares face.

Also corpse obstacles would be nice, but if that happens then a horse crashing into a square would HAVE to disrupt formation, which actualy was a problem in the era.
 
Well if horse is stopped and rears cavalryman cant move for a little time bracing men simply stan up and bayonet him two or three at once wouldnt they?  :mrgreen: Theres no way to simulate major cause of cavalrymen pissing themselves and not pressing attack and that was musketry. So maybe if horses reared reasonable distance away not to make it too easy for lancer to reach?

Anyway speaking about lancers how long would their lances be in game? Reach of a lance wasnt so huge, with length of about 2,50m for french if my memory is right Id say it shouldnt outreach musket by too much, but it should be faster maybe. On the other hand they should have sideways slashes implemented as a way to disrupt opponents attack, or even throw him off horse if its planned to be in. :mrgreen: Maybe also alternate usage of lance between overarm underarm, or couched sword for cuirassier, than would make him lean over horses neck to reach far it front of him etc, etc. There couldve been so many interensting things shame most of them are almost surely fantasy.  :twisted:

Well Ive learned that moving sideways of forward-backwards against a horseman is maybe all of the difference. :mrgreen: I had tendency to move forward or backward and was generally either killed or bumped and not attacked too effectively. While moving sideways reasonably, stopping for a little and moving further etc is simply unsurpassable, if hes good with a horse hell slow down and try to fence it out on almost stopped horse and is either killed or has his horse badly damaged, I really suck as infantry but I really love engaging cavalry if it doesnt have a lance, because it is so much easier than aginst even average footman for me.  :smile:

Imlementation of pass/half pass only would give cavalryman more options and finally more to learn than just ride by at full speed cutting anyone not fully aware of him or prepared for him. Duelling on horseback would be interesting as well.
 
Not exactly on topic, but I was wondering if team bumping has been implemented? One issue I had with Mount and Musket was your horse would completely stop if running into the back of a friendly.
 
Well if horse is stopped and rears cavalryman cant move for a little time bracing men simply stan up and bayonet him two or three at once wouldnt they?  Theres no way to simulate major cause of cavalrymen pissing themselves and not pressing attack and that was musketry. So maybe if horses reared reasonable distance away not to make it too easy for lancer to reach?

Anyway speaking about lancers how long would their lances be in game? Reach of a lance wasnt so huge, with length of about 2,50m for french if my memory is right Id say it shouldnt outreach musket by too much, but it should be faster maybe. On the other hand they should have sideways slashes implemented as a way to disrupt opponents attack, or even throw him off horse if its planned to be in.  Maybe also alternate usage of lance between overarm underarm, or couched sword for cuirassier, than would make him lean over horses neck to reach far it front of him etc, etc. There couldve been so many interensting things shame most of them are almost surely fantasy. 

Well Ive learned that moving sideways of forward-backwards against a horseman is maybe all of the difference.  I had tendency to move forward or backward and was generally either killed or bumped and not attacked too effectively. While moving sideways reasonably, stopping for a little and moving further etc is simply unsurpassable, if hes good with a horse hell slow down and try to fence it out on almost stopped horse and is either killed or has his horse badly damaged, I really suck as infantry but I really love engaging cavalry if it doesnt have a lance, because it is so much easier than aginst even average footman for me. 

Imlementation of pass/half pass only would give cavalryman more options and finally more to learn than just ride by at full speed cutting anyone not fully aware of him or prepared for him. Duelling on horseback would be interesting as well.
Click to expand...

So you are basically saying that you want to nerf cavalry even more because people are blind and dont notice a loud ass sound of hoofs behind them? And also because you want to make it even easier for you to kill cavalry? "because it is so much easier than aginst even average footman for me". IF you suck at infantry and its so easy for you to kill cavalry, imagine how easy it is for a skilled player? Yet you want to nerf cav even more..
 
JeanChristophe said:
So you are basically saying that you want to nerf cavalry even more because people are blind and dont notice a loud ass sound of hoofs behind them? And also because you want to make it even easier for you to kill cavalry? "because it is so much easier than aginst even average footman for me". IF you suck at infantry and its so easy for you to kill cavalry, imagine how easy it is for a skilled player? Yet you want to nerf cav even more..
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As a cavalry player I can say that Cavalry IS overpowed, I can get the same amount of kills a proffesional infantryman can get.

Yes people are blind and deaf, deal with it.

And skilled people can easily kill a horse charging directly at them, thats why we only kill blind and deaf people. :grin:
 
Helixrider said:
As a cavalry player I can say that Cavalry IS overpowed, I can get the same amount of kills a proffesional infantryman can get.

Yes people are blind and deaf, deal with it.

And skilled people can easily kill a horse charging directly at them, thats why we only kill blind and deaf people. :grin:
Click to expand...

Cav has always had an immense advantage, from Mount and Blade's early Alphas to now. For me, on non-siege maps...its a must. Its hard for me to do the line stuff, and I am no commander, so I go cav. But, when i am Inf, its really easy to counter Cav, and as Cav there are those tricky bastards who know exactly how to counter me. I don't kill them, because I can't, I just go after the 'blind and deaf' people, like Helixrider.

In all ways
 
Deaf and blind is their fault, cavalry is supposed to take advantage of people's blind spots. Hit them when they don't have time to aim at you. I rarely have any problems (lag aside) taking out cavalry as infantry either, lancers can be slightly harder depending on how good that lancer actually is but even then they really are not that difficult to kill. I wouldn't say cavalry is at all overpowered, it just has advantages and benefits (as well as drawbacks) that cavalry have.

Infantry in MM have a huge advantage against cavalry (compared to Native) because they all have bayonets, these work very well against cavalry, learn to use them. Also, afaik, most cavalry don't block very often and/or well.
 
JeanChristophe said:
So you are basically saying that you want to nerf cavalry even more because people are blind and dont notice a loud ass sound of hoofs behind them? And also because you want to make it even easier for you to kill cavalry? "because it is so much easier than aginst even average footman for me". IF you suck at infantry and its so easy for you to kill cavalry, imagine how easy it is for a skilled player? Yet you want to nerf cav even more..
Click to expand...

If you have a horse that is as mobile as a man on foot so you have more options than ride at him full speed in straight line and pray he doesnt sidestep and hit you first how is that nerfing? Horse can dance around a man, not the opposite as in this game, simply one on one with this in and if one learns how to move on a horse properly, there simply cant be one guy with bayonet or other weapon killing horsemen left and right singlehandedly as Ive seen quite many times. It would add a little more challenge for a man with horse to learn how to move and evade properly and if he does so then it would be much more rewarding than just hunting down deaf and blind people, wouldnt it?

But if they stay together and are aware of what is happening all around them then no horsemen should have the advantage - this is already being implemented with that bracing etc. So there should be some countermeasure to make horsemen good when they were at advantage but arent really for now- against scattered enemy.

Also they couldve removed killing rider through horse with stabbing, its quite strange that couched lance had this removed and not ordinary stab or cut.
 
Light cav is always underpowered when in a 1v1 situation with an infantryman. Want to know why ?

HE HAS A DARN MUSKET

But then again he may not have a loaded one ..so

HE HAS A LONG ASS STICK INSTEAD
 
JeanChristophe said:
Light cav is always underpowered when in a 1v1 situation with an infantryman. Want to know why ?

HE HAS A DARN MUSKET

But then again he may not have a loaded one ..so

HE HAS A LONG ASS STICK INSTEAD
Click to expand...

Light cav, slice'm in the back.
 
JeanChristophe said:
Light cav is always underpowered when in a 1v1 situation with an infantryman. Want to know why ?

HE HAS A DARN MUSKET

But then again he may not have a loaded one ..so

HE HAS A LONG ASS STICK INSTEAD
Click to expand...

In a 1v1 situation you shouldn't charge a prepared infantry man with a bayoneted musket.
Just keep running around and look for other opportunities like a true gentlemen.  :wink:
 
JeanChristophe said:
Light cav is always underpowered when in a 1v1 situation with an infantryman. Want to know why ?

HE HAS A DARN MUSKET

But then again he may not have a loaded one ..so

HE HAS A LONG ASS STICK INSTEAD
Click to expand...

Well generally thats it. If you can move sideways with horse you can dodge musket fire and bayonet thrusts much better, it would be the same as people running right and left to dodge arrows. (not sure how much usefull it is against musket :mrgreen:) Like this, it would be possible to make him miss with stab infront of you or make step to the side with a horse for him to miss and then immediatly close in for a cut and surely more other options I cant imagine now. Cavalry in melee would be about maneuvering, not just picking up people not aware of you.
 
Light Cavalry is best cavalry anyway. Unparalleled speed and mobility means you can effectively dance around a bayonet while putting your saber into their neck. It is really not difficult to defeat infantry at in any circumstance when you are on even ground. (IE, hes not in a fort)
 
Deofuta said:
Light Cavalry is best cavalry anyway. Unparalleled speed and mobility means you can effectively dance around a bayonet while putting your saber into their neck. It is really not difficult to defeat infantry at in any circumstance when you are on even ground. (IE, hes not in a fort)
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And then your line releases a volley and all their horses are dead.
 
tbh the more speed the less you can make sharp turns /bank. So sure you can get away from a situation quicker and have a slight advantage vs cav but not really much against inf

im leaving this thread now
 
dochtorgajo said:
JeanChristophe said:
Light cav is always underpowered when in a 1v1 situation with an infantryman. Want to know why ?

HE HAS A DARN MUSKET

But then again he may not have a loaded one ..so

HE HAS A LONG ASS STICK INSTEAD
Click to expand...

Well generally thats it. If you can move sideways with horse you can dodge musket fire and bayonet thrusts much better, it would be the same as people running right and left to dodge arrows. (not sure how much usefull it is against musket :mrgreen:) Like this, it would be possible to make him miss with stab infront of you or make step to the side with a horse for him to miss and then immediatly close in for a cut and surely more other options I cant imagine now. Cavalry in melee would be about maneuvering, not just picking up people not aware of you.
Click to expand...

I personally really love cavalry and I think the "moving sideways" would be a great addition to the game. Not only for other cavalrymen, but also for infantry, as they can get a more interesting melee with cav that is based on skill, not just poking the horse with a stick.
 
I think the system they have in Deluge would be good- if you either stab or brace a polearm against a charging horse, with enough speed (from the horse) the polearm can break or be knocked out of your hands, even if it is a well timed thrust and you inflict damage on the horse. Swords can also be knocked out of the hand in such situations, and if hit with enough force riders can occasionally be knocked out of the saddle (hurt but not killed by the weapon which struck them). So stabbing a horse with a bayonet would not simply be a certain death for the horse (though in Deluge they generally have enough hitpoints to survive a single thrust attack), the infantryman can be disarmed by the impact.

This might sound as though a dismounted cavalryman would then have the infantry at his mercy, but if infantry are in a group, then they will have enough bayonets to outnumber each horseman.  A horse takes up more lateral space than a single infantryman, and of course one infantryman could kneel in front of the other and so you might have four bayonets/muskets confronting each horse and its rider. At the moment in M&M, more often than not a cavalryman will not beat an infantryman one on one. I don't recognise what Deofuta describes at all, I would say the odds are at least 70% on the bayonet winning. If cavalry could only attack unaware or preoccupied infantry in real life, why did they need square formations with four ranks on each side?
 
I think the system they have in Deluge would be good- if you either stab or brace a polearm against a charging horse, with enough speed (from the horse) the polearm can break or be knocked out of your hands, even if it is a well timed thrust and you inflict damage on the horse. Swords can also be knocked out of the hand in such situations, and if hit with enough force riders can occasionally be knocked out of the saddle (hurt but not killed by the weapon which struck them). So stabbing a horse with a bayonet would not simply be a certain death for the horse (though in Deluge they generally have enough hitpoints to survive a single thrust attack), the infantryman can be disarmed by the impact.

This might sound as though a dismounted cavalryman would then have the infantry at his mercy, but if infantry are in a group, then they will have enough bayonets to outnumber each horseman.  A horse takes up more lateral space than a single infantryman, and of course one infantryman could kneel in front of the other and so you might have four bayonets/muskets confronting each horse and its rider. At the moment in M&M, more often than not a cavalryman will not beat an infantryman one on one. I don't recognise what Deofuta describes at all, I would say the odds are at least 70% on the bayonet winning. If cavalry could only attack unaware or preoccupied infantry in real life, why did they need square formations with four ranks on each side?
Click to expand...

well said, and very intresting ideas aswell!

I mean if someone skilled is facing a single infantry man sure he can easily time his bank/his swing so the sword hits the person before hes bayo hits you. But a regular player for example may have a problem with this since it is alot easier to be the infantryman dealing the stab.
 
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