Ye olde Sacred Band of Thebes- gay?

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Eogan said:
First of all, well said.  I quite agree.  I find that many people today don't appreciate the distinction between equality and uniformity.  Most cultures before modern times simply weren't economically and agriculturally stable enough to SUPPORT men and women who felt the need to question their culturally-mandated roles.
I wouldn't necessarily agree. However, in large part there wasn't much need for men and women to work. The 'liberation' of women probably has less to do with changing technology and WWII / WWI as it does capitalism. The simple fact is that once women began working and owning their own money, they became consumers. Look at the main hallmarks of the 60's revolution - nothing to do with equal female rights at the workplace, instead you see cosmetics, fashion and similar industries going orbital. Nowadays a household surviving on a single income is pretty much impossible.
What's my point?  I believe that the modern understanding that all or most societies throughout history were predominately misogynistic are clouded by a trick the people of the 60's borrowed from the Victorians.
Probably owes more to the more militant feminists to be honest. Mind you, I don't know many people who consider previous societies as mysogynistic. Patriachal certainly, but I've never heard an accusation of mysogyny outside of radical feminism.
  I think it'll still be a number of years before we can get to the point where most people are equipped to properly view gender roles in ANY society, modern or past, without viewing it through the tainted lens of the post-war years.
Already here to a large extent, in fact I wouldn't say there's much of a role left for either gender. These days it's based more around prosperity, or at least it's perception.
Actually, I think the original concept behind the US College of Electorates was pretty interesting. 
Sounds pretty much like a Republic rather than Democracy.

What you're describing, though, is just a more effective form of stagnation. It may be balanced, but it also prohibits growth, because one side essentially undoes what the other side did -- it's a cycle that's better, but still similarly doomed, to America's.
To be honest it rather depends on the government itself. Here in the UK one party completely overturning the work of another is pretty rare. Hence the huge furore over promises to support/scrap the ID card. Then again, part of the idea of a multi-party system is you need at least part of the opposition to agree with a policy in order to enact it. Apart from those rare situations when one party has a clear majority thanks to a landslide your dependent on non-party votes to secure a majority (unless your Mr Blair, in which case you need non-party votes to make up for the rebellion in the back benches).
 
Mind you, I don't know many people who consider previous societies as mysogynistic. Patriachal certainly, but I've never heard an accusation of mysogyny outside of radical feminism.

In all fairness, I hear about how ancient cultures were misogynistic all the time, from both men and women.

 
Damien said:
Mind you, I don't know many people who consider previous societies as mysogynistic. Patriachal certainly, but I've never heard an accusation of mysogyny outside of radical feminism.

In all fairness, I hear about how ancient cultures were misogynistic all the time, from both men and women.

And they know the true meaning of the word and has read up on relevant facts of those ancient cultures?
 
And they know the true meaning of the word and has read up on relevant facts of those ancient cultures?

I wouldn't know their grasp of any of those. Nor do I think it matters at all. I wasn't claiming they were correct.

 
Depends on the history you're looking at to be honest. You could argue it about certain Eastern cultures, but on the whole (especially in the West) there's always been an almost semi-divine respect accorded to the mother figure of a family. They may not have controlled the state (at least overtly), but certainly to the mediterranean cultures going against the word of the family mother was tantamount to sin (still is in Greece & Italy).
 
Agreed.

Like I said above - I'm not claiming the people I mentioned are CORRECT. I'm just saying that I -hear- the whole "misogynistic ancient cultures" arguments all the time. Lots of people do seem to think it, regardless of whether or not such a belief is accurate in the least bit.

 
I'd have to agree with the group on the misogyny issue. I had a feminist teacher (not a femi-nazi, just studied women mostly), she seemed fairly convinced that women had both power and respect in most ancient western civilizations.

As to the homosexuality of Greece, from what I've been told, homosexuality was more of a noble hobby than anything else. From my estimation, Greeks saw homosexual relations like playing a game of poker or some such. I may be wrong (probably), but I think that those who devoted themselves only to homosexuality were ostracized, as well as those who devoted themselves to purely heterosexual relations.
 
Hack McSlash said:
I'd have to agree with the group on the misogyny issue. I had a feminist teacher (not a femi-nazi, just studied women mostly), she seemed fairly convinced that women had both power and respect in most ancient western civilizations.
They're the ones who usually say the opposite :lol: Course, I suppose if someone has actually looked into what it is they're *****ing about they might have a different opinion.
As to the homosexuality of Greece, from what I've been told, homosexuality was more of a noble hobby than anything else. From my estimation, Greeks saw homosexual relations like playing a game of poker or some such.
Depended on the relationship to be honest. Like I said before you had the mentor - student type thing, beyond that it would be up to the individual, though I don't doubt you had the same kind of sex for politics kind of thing we still see today.
I may be wrong (probably), but I think that those who devoted themselves only to homosexuality were ostracized, as well as those who devoted themselves to purely heterosexual relations.
Not normally. A simple preference for one gender over the other might have led to some ribbing, but it wouldn't normally result in ostracism. In Athens at least you required a vote to ostracise someone, so you'd need to make sure they were pretty unpopular anyway. Of course, if you could 'prove' peversion (liking only young men for example) then you might have a case, but again it's not so much the sexuality they'd be concerned about, but the fact that you had an unhealthy appetite for small boys.

The thing is the Greeks didn't consider relationships in the same way we do - for example, once married (as far as we know solely something between a man and woman) both were free to pursue prostitutes (of which there were many :lol:) or even swap their spouse if they got tired of them (though this required legal intervention). It's hard to say whether anyone was exclusively hetero or homosexual.
 
pmdezso said:
gay sex is bad. sorry.
What, exactly, does that have to do with the historical accuracy of the claim that the Sacred Band was an entirely homosexual unit?  Piss off, you ****ing bigot.

Archonsod said:
The other problem of course is that you're less likely to take risks if the life of your lover is on the line...
Eh?  Wouldn't you be more likely to?
 
13 Spider Bloody Chain said:
Maybe out of consideration for your lover, you wouldn't be as reckless?
That's what I thought he was going for, but as he wrote it, it doesn't really make sense.  All in all, it sounds like a potentially dangerous idea, though also has much potential.  You've got a greater chance of men breaking ranks or losing it in the field, but on the other hand, you automatically have a nice bonus to morale.
 
Debateable. I mean, watching your lover get killed is going to be worse for morale than watching a comrade die.

As for the risk taking, you'd be less likely to put the life of your lover at risk than you would that of another soldier. Sometimes it is necessary to undertake such risks, or even sacrifices, in order to be victorious.


And of course, given the usual flow of human relations, the last thing you want is your seargeant not speaking to your corporal because he's been having the leiutenant on the side...
 
Merentha said:
pmdezso said:
gay sex is bad. sorry.
What, exactly, does that have to do with the historical accuracy of the claim that the Sacred Band was an entirely homosexual unit?  Piss off, you ****ing bigot.
I am implying that it is bad for you. it ruptures your lining of your anus, and you get ****, and seapeople in your bloodstream. not fun IMO. so thats why gay sex is bad.
 
Archonsod said:
And of course, given the usual flow of human relations, the last thing you want is your seargeant not speaking to your corporal because he's been having the leiutenant on the side...

I can so imagine that... It should be made into a movie... But wasn't the rule that lovers was in different ends of the formation? So that you wouldn't see your lover get killed? Sure, it would be bad for morale afterwards, but I think the benifits would outweigh it.

Pmdeszo, that applies to non-experienced people trying to use anal sex, it applies to heterosexual relationships as well.
 
Regardless, your still going to be worried about what's happening at that end of the formation.
I can so imagine that.
It's one of the main reasons there are regulations preventing romantic entanglements in most mixed gender military forces. Jealousy and armed people don't tend to mix well.
 
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