Ukraine Today

[Vicccard]

The police were drastically outnumbered. They made a corridor in the streets trying to keep the Pro-Russian and Pro-Unity groups separated but they were just too numerous and in a pretty foul mood. Both sides. For their own reasons. Have you considered the idea that talking to both sides and coordinating with them is a normal police-tactic to make sure tensions don't rise? The police did not make charges against Pro-Russians nor Pro-Unity and was entirely on the defensive trying to save the situation. If anyone made mistakes, I think it was done at High Command-level. If you claim otherwise, that the burden of proof lies with those who make the statement, ergo, you.

These policemen are in a very dangerous situation that can turn ugly against them at any given moment. They have to walk the thin line of neutrality - any action against a certain side will make them look like enemies to the other. What you see as 'obvious cooperating' might just be the only course of action that doesn't involve a awful lot of violence.

There were no police at the fire because there was nothing the outnumbered and outgunned policemen could do. The situation had escalated far too much; it was pretty much a war zone. As soon as the situation calmed down, medics and fire-fighters arrived at the scene, followed by the police.

 

[Trueten]

They have to walk the thin line of neutrality

Neutrality? Have you seen the last vid I've posted? They guy is shooting with AK behind their backs, and police does nothing, except 'neutrally' ignoring it.

Besides, how can police wearing same red armbands the separatist have can be called 'neutrality'?

Pro-russian mother****ers in Odessa are wearing red armbands... so does the police

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Odessa's police:

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They could've arrive to the Burning house at least to follow some order, not fighting any of the side. Simple ingoring this most dangerous moment is a crime for police.

 

[Vicccard]

They have to walk the thin line of neutrality

Neutrality? Have you seen the last vid I've posted? They guy is shooting with AK behind their backs, and police does nothing, except 'neutrally' ignoring it.

What are they supposed to do? "Hey you! Yes, you, with that AK-47! Stop shooting or...I'll hit you with my hat!"

Besides, how can police wearing same red armbands the separatist have can be called 'neutrality'?

Were all of them wearing red armbands or just that stood with the Pro-Russian crowd, as opposed to those who formed the corridors?

They could've arrive to the Burning house at least to follow some order, not fighting any of the side.

To follow some order? What order?

 

[rejenorst]

Well I see it more as a set up. Obviously, the police was cooperating wtih separatists:

Or maybe they were so busy fending off projectiles from the Ukranian side that they didn't even see the guy with the AK?

Police officer talking to separatists like... coordinating with them.

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Or trying to calm things down? Its not unusual for the police to try and talk to protestors or reason with them. So why would the pro Russian crowd attack the Odessa police station if supposedly the police are on their side?

Also, just take a look at this pic (warning, the pic is harsh). That doesn't look like 'inhaling the smoke', it seems more like a sudden death.

Seems like an old woman who may have been crammed inside the building when people where trying to escape the flames and maybe she died of smoke asphyxiation?

But just so there's no doubt (warning graphic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycfOCxR5mxM

The source is from the Euromaidan channel which seems to be pretty happy with the outcome.

Besides, witnesses say there were no police during the fire. Why didn't police protect their separatist friends, huh? They did it before, why not helping at that very moment?

Good question.I guess they weren't coordinated.


EDIT: Timoschenko thank you for the liberation of the Odessa trade union building.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6I4MWbnCZ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g23t857XJW0

This reminds me of Syrian chemical weapon usage and we all know 'who's' supporting Syrian government and could provide it with this gas.

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Well Syria likely got its chemical weapons from both the West, Russia and Iraq but sources are conflicting. Lets assume however that during the 1980's Syria did get chemical weapons from Russia:
http://www.propublica.org/article/where-did-syrias-chemical-weapons-come-from

This would not have been different from Iraq getting sarin or chemical weapons from the US and we were quite happy to turn a blind eye to its use in Iran. It was later on used on the Kurds as well. 

In any case the Syrian Regime became self proficient:

“Soviets provided the initial setup, then the Syrians became quite proficient at it. Later, German companies came in,” Crocker said.

As for who used them there's plenty of speculation:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,274938.msg7128024.html#msg7128024

 

[Almalexia]

Police officer talking to separatists like... coordinating with them.

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Wait wait wait wait. Is no one going to comment on the guy on the left in chainmail?

Well I see it more as a set up. Obviously, the police was cooperating wtih separatists:

Or maybe they were so busy fending off projectiles from the Ukranian side that they didn't even see the guy with the AK?

Okay I'm not going to go too far into this argument because I don't necessarily agree with either side, but the dude was literally in the midst of the formation with an AK held very prominently.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

It reminds me of how the revolutionaries during the July Revolution raided museums in Paris and went around wearing medieval armour.

 

[rejenorst]

He had a lot on his... armored plate...

*Pun fail :/

Okay I'm not going to go too far into this argument because I don't necessarily agree with either side, but the dude was literally in the midst of the formation with an AK held very prominently.

Yeah but the entire police where facing the other way with their attention firmly fixed on the projectiles coming their way and there was a lot of grenade like sounds going off so maybe they didn't hear or see him bring up the gun? Either way none of the police seemed to be armed with weapons and the situation has gone beyond their control so they're leaving and they certainly didn't come back to get inbetween the two groups a second time.

 

[user1324865215]

What the hell happened in Odessa?

 

[Almalexia]

Yeah but the entire police where facing the other way with their attention firmly fixed on the projectiles coming their way and there was a lot of grenade like sounds going off so maybe they didn't hear or see him bring up the gun?

Well I acknowledge the possibility, absolutely, but it seems pretty unlikely that they would not see an assault rifle held aloft right next to their faces. That's all I'm sayin' is all.

 

[rejenorst]

I think they would have seen it eventually yeah, which likely contributed to why they no longer got involved after. I am just not certain that the police where 'in on it' and/or condoned the use of an AK prior to brawl.

However enlarging the video he is right next to them at 6:30 so I am surprised no one quickly seized the gun :/

EDIT: It seems even RT is saying the same thing as Trueten; that the police seem to have colluded with the pro Russian protestors:
http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/

Of course RT is saying that the provocateurs disappeared and where separate from the ones in the union building and that it 'may' have been a setup intended to spark violence and pin the blame squarely on the pro Russians but they offer no evidence for the claim.

Also: NYT article on the SLOVYANSK pro-Russian gunment:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/behind-the-masks-in-ukraine-many-faces-of-rebellion.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=2

 

[Tancred_de_Houdan]

Smoke this smoke that. People died of carbon monoxide poisoning, the most common death in fires. It acts very quickly once its in your system and if you can't vacate the building quick enough. Eg. Fear of getting clubbed to death... well, you're pretty much buggered.

Those burned to a crisp probably collapsed before they could feel any flames and were later consumed by fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning

 

[Vicccard]

carbon monoxide poisoning,

That's the word. I thought it had something to do with smoke, but then again, this is not really my cup of tea. Thanks, Tancred.

 

[Trueten]

Rumours say that fat **** with an AK was shot today (he was previously released from the police dep in Odessa). Still rumours, but there's even speculations of him being 'removed' by FSB. Time will show. Expecting for confirmation.

Also there's a fight near Slaviansk. Ukranian troops got attack by, as they say, 800 men. On the other hand, that's what Interior Minister says, and judging from his previous states, I'd rather believe a video-proof or so.

More rumours say there's a russian army concentrating near Antratsit (Lugansk region, very close to the russian border) and that there'll be an invasion this evening.

Rumours, rumours, rumours...

UPD: Police in Odessa drops down shields and leaves (wtf?)

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Well, not all of them, but at least half.

 

[Trueten]

Just a regular day of Slaviansk


Oh yeah, even during a war don't forget the make up!

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Also

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[Weaver]

In a rural community near Odessa an old lady called the police and reported a group of young suspiciously looking robust men in green uniform asking her how to get to water tower. News spread like wildfire and half the town snatched their kids from schools and evacuated. Local forces reinforced by policemen from Odessa and volunteers arrived on the scene only to find out the young men were water pipe engineers.
Only in Odessa.

In other news, a spetsnaz batallion just entered the city. Really hope that will help to take the situation under control.
trueten is not wrong, I can't say I fully trust local police right now.

Edit: My mom just called me and said she had information from a trustworthy source that local water tower was being seized by terrorists. So I should fill every container I have with water and lay low.
I swear I'm not making this up.

 

[Trueten]

Got to admit, separatists do have some creativity - in Slaviansk they've taken a wagon and tried to remake it into armoured-protected one (A-team style). But our heli destroyed it:

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Not much to see there though. Just some rocket launch in a mid of the video.
Edit: That helicopter was hit afterwards. Huh.

Some RT video of today's skirmish in Slaviansk:


Mind though, it's RT, so the title is false - it's not a gas-pipe to explode, but the gas-station. Geez.

Our militaries lost 4 men and 30 wounded so far. There's no info on separatist casualties, but they say they have lost a lot more.



Welcome to Slaviansk:

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[Anthropoid]

When I said "civil war" I didn't mean to imply that it is NOT being provoked by Russia. Previously, you were suffering unrest and sporadic violence. Now you seem to be suffering a state of "low-intensity" ____ war. Whether the term "civil" or whatever is the best term is not really what I had in mind.

The main truth seems to be, it is a rather brilliantly orchestrated example of Russia executing a 'textbook' Fourth Generation Warfare, externally prompted insurgency, and intended to appear to be the beginnings of a truly 'indigenous' civil war, and hoped to morph slowly into one?

The term was first used in 1989 by a team of United States analysts, including William S. Lind, to describe warfare's return to a decentralized form. In terms of generational modern warfare, the fourth generation signifies the nation states' loss of their near-monopoly on combat forces, returning to modes of conflict common in pre-modern times.

The simplest definition includes any war in which one of the major participants is not a state but rather a violent non-state actor. Classical examples, such as the slave uprising under Spartacus or the assassination of Julius Caesar by members of the Roman Senate, predate the modern concept of warfare and are examples of this type of conflict.

The fact that Russia _is_ a state shouldn't be confused. They are attempting to provoke/cajole/incentivize non-state entities in another state to do their dirty work for them, eh?

 

[Jhessail]

ARMA knowledges, or what?

ARMA is very accurate. You can learn a lot about modern weapons from playing it.

Come on dude.  ARMA is about as accurate as a better-than-average Hollywood movie. It probably gets quite some things correct, but not others, and is a video game at the end of the day.

They are attempting to provoke/cajole/incentivize non-state entities in another state to do their dirty work for them, eh?

Yeah, they were doing that already with Georgia in 2008, through Abhkazian and Ossetian "separatists", but stopped there and did not try to incite unrest elsewhere in Georgia.

 

[Splintert]

It places authentic tools, vehicles, environments in the hands of the average gamer and the result is a mix of strange guerrilla warfare and massive use of suicidal strategies.

Perfectly realistic!

 

[Krik]

To be fair, he said you could learn a lot about modern weapons from playing it. That is kinda true, the guns themselves are usually decently realistically portrayed. (Not talking about ArmA 3)