Ukraine Today

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A week ago a Unity March was announced to be held today. There were never any major problems with marches held by either side in Odessa so we didn't expect much trouble.
And yes, we had this football match between the local team and folks from Kharkov today. Fans of both teams, though historically unfriendly to each other, agreed to strike a truce and join the march to show their patriotic views.
Pro-Russian fighters attacked the column on one of the central streets of the city. At first it was a chaotic brawl, but ultras organized quickly and drove pro-Russian fighters into a corner. They quickly raised make-shift barricades. Both sides flinged stones at each other, police arrived and tried to drive pro-Ukrainian folks away. Which went fairly well at at first.
Then pro-Russian terrorists opened fire. At least three people were shot to death, many more wounded. At this point patriots went into frenzy and charged. A mini-bus with Donetsk number plates was seized in the process, loaded with bullets and pyrotechnics. The crowd really started going berserk and the only reason terrorists were not stomped into the ground was our reluctance to harm policemen who dashed in to usher the terrorists away.
Unexpectedly there was an official announcement from regional prosecutor's office.
"EVERY ACTION PERFORMED BY CITIZENS TO NEUTRALIZE ARMED TERRORISTS WILL BE CONSIDERED LEGAL."
That's when I realized **** will hit the fan big time.
The crowd then went on to tear down the terrorists' camp. The tents were burnt down. Their denizens retreated into a nearby building, which you can see on the photo, provided by trueten. Folks tried to storm the building but the terrorists started firing from the windows. They had numerous handguns and at least one AK. Several more people were shot to death, many were wounded.
More people arrived and the first floor was taken. People were dragged out and beaten. Some were just let go (mostly women). Then suddenly a fire started. I have no idea how it started but I think it started on several floors at once. Upper floors were unharmed and there are still armed terrorists holed up there.
The crowd recoiled. When people started jumping out of the windows the crowd dragged sofas and scaffolds under the windows to not let them die. Still at least several jumped to their death.
That's when police and firefighters arrived. Those who were saved from the fire were handed into police custody.
Still many people inside the building died from asphyxiation or burns. There is no confirmed number yet, but it's at least a dozen, most probably twice as much. Information that they were from Russia or Transnistria is also unconfirmed.
In any case, triumph quickly turned into a tragedy.

Russian media already attributed the deaths to Right Sector.
 
Weaver said:
Both sides flinged stones at each other, police arrived and tried to drive pro-Ukrainian folks away. Which went fairly well at at first.
Then pro-Russian terrorists opened fire.
Confirmed
zLHS8.jpg
 
Meanwhile there's a skirmish in Slaviansk (no stones - ukranian forces including snipers vs russians & locals armed with AKs). 20 terrorist dead. Separatists say that their 'national mayor' Pnomarev has been shot by sniper. No confirmation though. As minimum 2 our men have died.
 
Anthropoid said:
So basically, low-intensity civil war is getting under way.
Half of perished - russians. Civil War? I don't think so.

Although, Kramatorsk right now

Yeah, this might look like Civil War, but it isn't.
 
I think it's time for a shift in rhetorics.
There is no reason to call armed men shooting people, overtaking infrastructure and taking hostages separatists any longer, when terrorists is a much more fitting term.
 
trueten said:
Anthropoid said:
So basically, low-intensity civil war is getting under way.
Half of perished - russians. Civil War? I don't think so.

Although, Kramatorsk right now

Yeah, this might look like Civil War, but it isn't.

I understand your reluctance to call it a civil war. Are you suggesting that there are zero Ukrainian citizens among the separatists? Surely at least some of the "pro-Russians" are not actually Russians but actually Ukrainians?
 
Anthropoid said:
Surely at least some of the "pro-Russians" are not actually Russians but actually Ukrainians?
The majority of separatists are ukranians. I don't deny that. But Civil War - is when half of population of one counrty hates another enough to kill each other or just die for their separatistic ideas (like, being another nation and desire to live in its own national government). But in our case, Russia is funidng and protecting the separatists (at least when RF ask not use force against them, or when russian troops activate on Ukranian borders during anti-terrorist operations). Russia is controlling the separatist. And finally - who are those people that deliberatley want to separate? Other nation, russians? No. Low-lifes. Post-soviet ****s that believe that only government should give them money, and they don't have to do anything to get them (like work or work more?). If it doesn't - it's a ****ty country. They believe that Russia is the one like their dream government. So it's not a clash between two different worlds, but among a smart people and dumb naive poor ****s.  They're stupid, honestly speaking. I bet my left kidney neither of them knows english or ever been abroad (including Russia).
That's why it can hardly be called a Civil War. Even if someone may find it to be - it's a completely artificial one.
 
Depending on your definition of civil war and information about combatants you choose to believe, you may or may not call this a civil war.
I personally don't feel strongly about either opinion.
 
Today's Odessa footage. Separatist camp:

Red armbands

Odessa's police:
10171284_777199912292350_4332998727552639447_n.jpg
Armbands.

Aggressive pro-ukranian trained terrorists:
10325409_269409873238722_2219820049832134159_n.jpg

10342919_269408543238855_8315669783070251594_n.jpg

Also, here's a pic when you can see fire inside the building, while the windows are not crushed - so it didn't come from outside:
10343493_615525055210199_8846761128796337009_n.jpg
 
My definition.

Civil War - One segment of a country is trying to separate from the rest of that country. Usually with the intention of becoming independent.
Revolution - The country rises up in an armed conflict against the government. The rebels hold the intent of removing the current government and installing a new one, keeping the whole nation intact.

Of course, the definitions are blurred. They call it the Syrian Civil War when really I think it should be called the Syrian Revolution.
 
Weaver has his head screwed on correctly: this is not good.

The more out of control this gets the more dangerous it will be for everyone, the more likely it will spark civil unrest/civil war and and the more likely it will be that foreign forces start getting much more 'involved' and the more likely tensions increase between NATO and Russia.

I hope nobody fools themselves into thinking that other country's governments actually give a **** about who dies on the ground compared to how much they care about their strategic agendas. People dying makes for good propaganda for foreign power interests on both sides of the fence and it gets touted about like a crucifix only to be forgotten the next day.


Unexpectedly there was an official announcement from regional prosecutor's office.
"EVERY ACTION PERFORMED BY CITIZENS TO NEUTRALIZE ARMED TERRORISTS WILL BE CONSIDERED LEGAL."

And this announcement will no doubt play into Russian hands in terms of how out of control the situation is.

EDIT: some footage of the center I think (Russian side):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivho089I9oc

And Ukranian side:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a98_1399036952

trueten said:
Today's Odessa footage. Separatist camp:

Red armbands

Odessa's police:
10171284_777199912292350_4332998727552639447_n.jpg
Armbands.

Aggressive pro-ukranian trained terrorists:
10325409_269409873238722_2219820049832134159_n.jpg

10342919_269408543238855_8315669783070251594_n.jpg

Also, here's a pic when you can see fire inside the building, while the windows are not crushed - so it didn't come from outside:
10343493_615525055210199_8846761128796337009_n.jpg


You do realize the building was stormed right? Even Weaver mentioned that the first floor was taken. For all we know some idiot on either side threw a molotov or a flashbang that set fire to something flammable. As for the meme of women protestors its a meme and not anything factual. Taking a snapshot of some corner of the protest doesn't give an adequate picture of what is really going on. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1b05Xkgudg
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire

 
Was watching Russian news today. Almost choked when the host explained how our choppers were taken down: "Looks like Ukrainian military didn't expect local self-defense troops to have self-propelled air defense systems."
I swear to god he said it with a straight face.
 
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