UKIP in a nutshell.

[user1324865215]

This is why everyone should have voted for Ron Paul.

 

[Aldric]

In the eurozone.

- A country can't use his central bank for a zero % loan or Quantitative easing like the other sovereign country does.
- Its national laws are always supercede by the one of the E.U. Including when it's unfavorable to the national interest, like forced ecological norms for the industry or fishing quota.
- You can't use a single currency in a free trade zone with differents economy. You either got massive wealth transfer like in west germany to east germany and/or a political integration to get a unified economic policy in each zone ( As Latins and Nordics don't have the same economies )
But more political integration won't happen as it would blast the plan to pretend to be in democratic countries. Sending cash overseas is the only remaining option. Do it with your taxes € not mines.

- The maastricht treaty (2005) has been democratically refused (55% No ) by at least 2 country including a funding member aka France .Therefore any further political or economical integration is undemocratic ( without another referendum which won't happen due to E.U popularity ) .
- The european union has been enlarged (Croatia ) without referendum as it used to be the case. It's clearly lack any legitimacy.
- Some unelected shadow bureau is negotiating a transatlantic trade agreement with the US . It's not like we got a say on what could ruin our jobs and industry in europe. Not to mention that companies will be able to trial states which doesn't follow free trade rules.
A last word. Judge a tree on its fruits. I clearly remember (like 75% of my fellow citizen) that life was cheaper under our national currency which could be manipulated depending of the policy.

 

[DannyT]

@dannyT Why exactly did you vote for them then? Their meps and councillors hardly turn up for meetings, just like the bnp at its height. If you're anti eu and have an irrational fear of the muslamic infidel and shakira law, vote conservative as they're far more likely to be successful in isolating britain.

I've asked UKIP supporters why they voted and got that they’re sick of being run by unelected bureaucrats in the European Commission; the uncontrolled immigration undercutting the value of the native workforce; the immigration of large numbers of people who do not share Western beliefs in human rights; the monetary union of the Eurozone that is trapped in a volkerkerker and threatens the stability of Europe; the political and media elites that treat them with derision and dismiss them as "racist"; Europe's Civil law that is not the same as the UK's Common law; being told an European conglomerate is better than a isolated democratic Britain; and quite a few other reasons.

That's why.

You do realise how half of his post was explaining why voting UKIP was poitnelss, yes?

Yes i do.

 

[BlackTide]

First up, why use semicolons. Just use commas.

"being run by unelected bureaucrats in the European Commission"
The European Commission is made up of the foreign ministers of all countries involved. They are all elected.

This is false. The European Commission is made up of people selected by their state's executive and then appointed a portfolio, Baroness Ashdown ('High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy') has never been elected by the people of Europe of the people of Britain.

"the uncontrolled immigration undercutting the value of the native workforce"
87% of the UK is white British and these demographics aren't changing much. People find a scapegoat for the recession and point the finger at immigrants. That tiny minority. Or perhaps British people are just bitter that there are foreign people who are better at doing things than they are and expect companies to be racist by turning away better workers in favour of a native British person.

He's not making it a race issue, he's simply talking about an oversupply in the labour market, seeing reduce pay etc... With unemployment currently standing at 6.8%, having no control over who enters the country from Europe is certainly a worrying affair.

"the monetary union of the Eurozone that is trapped in a volkerkerker and threatens the stability of Europe"
Ah, I see. So by leaving the European Union we'd be doing... what good, exactly? Making the situation worse. It's called a recession, not a problem with the EU.

We're not in a recession and we haven't been since 2010. The economic instability of countries such as Greece and Spain quite rightly worries people, especially considering the Euopean Commission's large role in dictating Grecian economic policy during the incidents.

"the political and media elites that treat them with derision and dismiss them as "racist""
This is because they are xenophobic at best and at worst they are indeed racist. To state that we should reject people from entering the country solely because they are not natively British is racist.
However, huzzah! I do agree here to an extent. We do desperately need a third party. Labour and the Tories are not satisfactory any more. They've had their day. I'm all for Liberal Democrat as I am fairly liberal and egalitarian as things go. Regardless, we do need more parties in the playing field.

I don't think that you understand the argument at all. The issue is not one of race but a simple understanding of the impracticalities of open borders with no control over who comes in. When unemployment is still relatively high, taking more and more people in is not going to wonders for the job market, especially considering that it is largely unskilled labour. It's a matter of rejecting or accepting people into the country on their relative merits and skills, not race.

If anyone's a spent force, after the Council and European elections, it's the Lib Dems 

"Europe's Civil law that is not the same as the UK's Common law"
Is this a Parliamentary Sovereignty argument? Because yes. The European Union can overrule our laws. So what? If it does, in an extreme case, seek to overrule statute law in the UK, it is for a good reason. e.g if we're destroying all the fish in the North Sea.

It is important not to confuse EU law with the European Convention on Human Rights  (but to be apart of the EU you have to sign the ECHR), but there have been numerous times in the early 2000's when legislation made in the full knowledge that it contradicts the ECHR has been declared incompatible. David Blunkett said on the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act "Parlimanet did debate this, we were aware of the circumstances, we did mean what we said and, on behalf of the British people, are going to implement it".

I can understand an agreement between nations to have a general 'spirit' in their law making, guidelines as it were, but if our directly elected officials want to make a law that goes against that they should - with the full knowledge that it does go against that. 

Notably you have the Factortame case 1991, where the British Government sought to make sure that the fish going towards their fishing quotas were actually caught by British people, saw EU law overrule British law adversely in my opinion.

"being told an European conglomerate is better than a isolated democratic Britain"
This isn't even an argument. This is just a statement. It is better than an isolated Britain.

That's not even a rebuttal, it's just a statement

And technically the country is run by unelected bureaucrats in the civil service (many bills live and die on their whims.) and no one but MP's complain.

However, our civil service is not the sole source of legislation in the country. The commission is the only European institution capable of initiating bills.

 

[user1324865215]

As an American, how similar is the UKIP to our Libertarian party? They seem pretty similar economically, but differ pretty radically on immigration and social policy. Also, is there an American-type libertarian party in the UK or any other EU nation? Just curious.

 

[Untitled.]

I'm not too familiar with the UKIP, but there seems to be a lack of libertarian parties over here. I'd imagine people would get mad if you said individual freedom is more important than economical equality. Probably call you a fascist too.

In the eurozone.

- A country can't use his central bank for a zero % loan or Quantitative easing like the other sovereign country does.
- Its national laws are always supercede by the one of the E.U. Including when it's unfavorable to the national interest, like forced ecological norms for the industry or fishing quota.
- You can't use a single currency in a free trade zone with differents economy. You either got massive wealth transfer like in west germany to east germany and/or a political integration to get a unified economic policy in each zone ( As Latins and Nordics don't have the same economies )
But more political integration won't happen as it would blast the plan to pretend to be in democratic countries. Sending cash overseas is the only remaining option. Do it with your taxes € not mines.

- The maastricht treaty (2005) has been democratically refused (55% No ) by at least 2 country including a funding member aka France .Therefore any further political or economical integration is undemocratic ( without another referendum which won't happen due to E.U popularity ) .
- The european union has been enlarged (Croatia ) without referendum as it used to be the case. It's clearly lack any legitimacy.
- Some unelected shadow bureau is negotiating a transatlantic trade agreement with the US . It's not like we got a say on what could ruin our jobs and industry in europe. Not to mention that companies will be able to trial states which doesn't follow free trade rules.
A last word. Judge a tree on its fruits. I clearly remember (like 75% of my fellow citizen) that life was cheaper under our national currency which could be manipulated depending of the policy.

Oh, now we're getting somewhere. You proved me wrong. Good on you.

 

[MadocComadrin]

I hope the free trade with the US is stopped. Boycott their wares and we'll have one less superpower.

If you want to finally unite the American public with its politics with a call to "bring democracy" to Sweden, I suggest you try. 

 

[Swissky]

Sweden Democrats (Sverigedemokraterna) today announced that they want to work together with UKIP in the EU.

I wonder what UKIP will answer?

 

[Mage246]

I hope the free trade with the US is stopped. Boycott their wares and we'll have one less superpower.

If you want to finally unite the American public with its politics with a call to "bring democracy" to Sweden, I suggest you try. 

Sing it brother! Butthurt Yuropeens are funny. If they ever succeed we'll see how big of a fan they are of Russia and China.

 

[Swissky]

I hope the free trade with the US is stopped. Boycott their wares and we'll have one less superpower.

If you want to finally unite the American public with its politics with a call to "bring democracy" to Sweden, I suggest you try. 

Sing it brother! Butthurt Yuropeens are funny. If they ever succeed we'll see how big of a fan they are of Russia and China.

I'm a Socialdemocrat (Democratic Socialist) how's that? 

 

[Kobrag]

...
If that is a reason for any support of Russia or China...then you are neither socially inclined or a supporter of democracy.
America may be a diarrhoea stained ****hole...but it;s better than catching bloody Ebola ****s from Russia and China.

 

[Mage246]

I think he's confused by their full names. People's Republic if China and Russian Federation. Sadly, he seems to know nothing about how empty those names are.

 

[Swissky]

...
If that is a reason for any support of Russia or China...then you are neither socially inclined or a supporter of democracy.
America may be a diarrhoea stained ****hole...but it;s better than catching bloody Ebola ****s from Russia and China.

I don't support any superpower, I was just teasing him because Americans tend to call anything other than right wing, communism.

 

[Jarvisimo]

Wow, this conversation is going to be brilliant for my Politics exam next week!

Black Tide, just letting you know I read your reply and I'll respond in full in the morning. Thanks for the counter arguments!

 

[Paronomasia12]

...
If that is a reason for any support of Russia or China...then you are neither socially inclined or a supporter of democracy.
America may be a diarrhoea stained ****hole...but it;s better than catching bloody Ebola ****s from Russia and China.

It's like the whole Israel-Palestine arguement. Would you live in a multi-party unitary parliamentary republic or a Islamist dominated semi-presidential state.

Let's not start down that route though

 

[Untitled.]

So tempting though!

 

[BlackTide]

Black Tide, just letting you know I read your reply and I'll respond in full in the morning. Thanks for the counter arguments!

Unit 2 -  Contemporary Government of the UK, OCR?

 

[ColonicAcid]

So most of the people here are arguing about this but the sad truth of the matter is it if UKIP comes into power it won't affect 90% of you.
Maybe I will get affected along with all the other immigrants, but I'll doubt it. For any law to pass it has to go through the house of lords and if it's pants on retardly racist it just won't get past the HoL. What I can see happen is maybe that immigration is curtailed just a tiny bit, but honestly I'm not really afraid that this is going to be the next nazi rising. Of course all this commotion is coming from the Brits, I think all the immigrants just couldn't care less and are busy working harder than most of the native population doing mundane, but very much needed jobs.

 

[Hospes fori]

I hope the free trade with the US is stopped. Boycott their wares and we'll have one less superpower.

Butthurt Yuropeens are funny. If they ever succeed we'll see how big of a fan they are of Russia and China.

If you do not happen to occupy a high position in an influential multinational corporation, I reckon there is no sensible reason to be in favour of the implementation of the so called Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership regardless of if you are US American or European.

 

[Aldric]

I hope the free trade with the US is stopped. Boycott their wares and we'll have one less superpower.

Butthurt Yuropeens are funny. If they ever succeed we'll see how big of a fan they are of Russia and China.

If you do not happen to occupy a high position in an influential multinational corporation, I reckon there is no sensible reason to be in favour of the implementation of the so called Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership regardless of if you are US-American or European.

The simple fact that such an important treaty was negotiated in secret behind our back ( before  it was made public by a whistleblower) show who is really in charge of this union.
In other times, the responsables would have been hanged for high treasons, but you know, now we just use twitter instead.