Religion Thread

[Sir Saladin]

The nature of Hell is a point of debate for theologians, spiritualists, stoned shamans and ancient aliens.

 

[Jesus YOUR LORD]

I would disagree. The Catholic Church, at the very least, doesn't hold the traditional views on "eternal punishment" which you see in the sects of Protestantism and Lutheranism and their ilk (although I can't say for the Eastern Orthodox church). And the hell professed by the Catholic Church which lies beneath the traditional veneer is not reserved for those who necessarily disbelieve in God, but rather those who actively reject what God stands for, which is, according to the Church, love and respect for other humans. I believe official Church dogma is that atheists don't go to hell unless they're unrepentant of whatever sins they may have committed - they instead go to Purgatory and may attain Heaven. The nature of hell itself is not defined by the Church, so we can't really say if it is eternal punishment and torture, but that's a point of debate for theologians.

Catholicism has never been about some exclusive sect, nor is it about some eternal reward. In my opinion, it's not like other sects of Christianity which, also in my opinion, essentially put the end well above the means. Catholicism is about repentance, and repentance is something which everyone knows at some point or another.

Well said.  The Catholic priests at my school were clearly misinformed about the existance and nature of hell.

 

[Mad Vader]

Catholicism is about repentance, and repentance is something which everyone knows at some point or another.

Makes sense if you frighten people with sins, then declare a monopoly for absolution of said sins.

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Catholicism is about repentance, and repentance is something which everyone knows at some point or another.

Makes sense if you frighten people with sins, then declare a monopoly for absolution of said sins.

It's not about frightening people, and it certainly isn't about monopolizing the means of repentance. Repentance is repentance - you have to do it yourself, and Confession is only one way to accomplish that.

 

[Vissy]

I'll present a little theory here.

It began as the early man's attempt of understanding the world, primitive science. Pretty quick they began to use it to control the masses and customize the public to their likes and needs. There is a reason that the people who have died in the name of God far exceeds the dead people from any other source, such as political gain or national interest. And usually religion is thrown in there as well.

The thing is, we now have real science. Religion[of any kind] is not needed anymore, it's outdated and it's the root of all evil we have in this world. Everything we consider evil nowadays, grew from the floor that religion provided. Genocide, religious hatred, racism, oppression of minorities, and some of the bloodiest wars we've ever encountered in our past. I'm not complaining about the bloody wars, though, any time some holy people wanna kill each other I'm a happy guy. But just look at how you're doing... not that well, huh?

It's the exact sort of delusional thinking that leads people to believe religion has to be a part of their lives. Confession is a ritual, just like the Death Penalty. They don't have actual meaning, but they rather sate some sort of a biblical need - like the need to repent or the need of vengeance. Normal people do repent about some things, but they don't make a religious ritual out of it and send petitions to God, whom everyone apparently expects to give a crap. People are real jerks to God, anyhow - they pray mostly on Sundays, which should be his day off, shouldn't it?

It's beyond ridiculous: religion has convinced us that an invincible man watches our every step and keeps score in the sky. And if we break even one of his rules, he sends us to a place of suffering, torture, anguish, burning and choking until the end of time. What does that have to do with "love"?

Well, go looking for consistency in religion... it's nonexistent. Religion is the biggest bull**** factor in the world, and it's continuing because they have managed to gain a mindless base of billions of followers who continue to brainwash their children to religion. Religion of any type, mind you.

That's also my opinion.

 

[PoisonCourtesan]

Catholicism is about repentance, and repentance is something which everyone knows at some point or another.

Makes sense if you frighten people with sins, then declare a monopoly for absolution of said sins.

It's not about frightening people, and it certainly isn't about monopolizing the means of repentance. Repentance is repentance - you have to do it yourself, and Confession is only one way to accomplish that.

Keep telling yourself that.
Besides, repentance is an emotion to be exploited that damages the self because it is connected to regret. Those who regret their actions and would want to undo them usually fall into misery and that makes for pathetic little people. It is fine to consider a choice of yours faulty and accept you were mistaken, even ponder over it a bit but the point of it is to move on and learn from it so you do not repeat it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_indulgences
How would like to explain indulgences by the way?

 

[LordOfShadows]

So you're saying that regret is bad? Damn, you must live some kind of life if you refuse to regret anything. I regret things, and they don't lead me to misery.....

 

[Kobrag]

Catholicism is about repentance, and repentance is something which everyone knows at some point or another.

Makes sense if you frighten people with sins, then declare a monopoly for absolution of said sins.

It's not about frightening people, and it certainly isn't about monopolizing the means of repentance. Repentance is repentance - you have to do it yourself, and Confession is only one way to accomplish that.

Keep telling yourself that.
Besides, repentance is an emotion to be exploited that damages the self because it is connected to regret. Those who regret their actions and would want to undo them usually fall into misery and that makes for pathetic little people. It is fine to consider a choice of yours faulty and accept you were mistaken, even ponder over it a bit but the point of it is to move on and learn from it so you do not repeat it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_indulgences
How would like to explain indulgences by the way?

People who tend not to feel regret tend to be sociopaths.
So I think I will stick with my 'pathetic' emotions.
Prick.

 

[PoisonCourtesan]

So you're saying that regret is bad? Damn, you must live some kind of life if you refuse to regret anything. I regret things, and they don't lead me to misery.....

Then you most probably do the later of what I said. You use the emotion to your advantage so it does not arise misery but helps you confront past failure and not repeat it.

People who tend not to feel regret tend to be sociopaths.
So I think I will stick with my 'pathetic' emotions.
Prick.

Refer above.

 

[Bromden]

Confession is not about regret, it's about whispering your most shameful secrets to your priest. This way the shepherd can truly make a sheep out of you.

It's not about frightening people, and it certainly isn't about monopolizing the means of repentance. Repentance is repentance - you have to do it yourself, and Confession is only one way to accomplish that.

Another way was, when the church sold letters of repentance for shiny gold. A quick and easy way, if you had the moneys for it. I wonder if there still is such a system for easy repentance. I mean, if I buy a new church for my priest, does that make God forgive me for killing a hooker?

 

[LordOfShadows]

So you're saying that regret is bad? Damn, you must live some kind of life if you refuse to regret anything. I regret things, and they don't lead me to misery.....

Then you most probably do the later of what I said. You use the emotion to your advantage so it does not arise misery but helps you confront past failure and not repeat it.

Which, as far as I understand catholic thought, is what repentance is supposed to be about....

 

[PoisonCourtesan]

So you're saying that regret is bad? Damn, you must live some kind of life if you refuse to regret anything. I regret things, and they don't lead me to misery.....

Then you most probably do the later of what I said. You use the emotion to your advantage so it does not arise misery but helps you confront past failure and not repeat it.

Which, as far as I understand catholic thought, is what repentance is supposed to be about....

Except then the concept of god comes in and obedience to his person as well as being sorry for what you've done.

 

[Duh]

Confession is not about regret, it's about whispering your most shameful secrets to your priest. This way the shepherd can truly make a sheep out of you.

There have actually been some interesting studies (according to one of the RSA lectures), which found that people tend to lie/steal less after going to confession. One proposed explanation was that it moves peoples' emotional state from a resigned "im bad/evil anyways" towards a clean slate, which motivates a reintegration into societies behaviorial norms.

 

[TheFlyingFishy]

The thing is, we now have real science. Religion[of any kind] is not needed anymore, it's outdated and it's the root of all evil we have in this world. Everything we consider evil nowadays, grew from the floor that religion provided. Genocide, religious hatred, racism, oppression of minorities, and some of the bloodiest wars we've ever encountered in our past. I'm not complaining about the bloody wars, though, any time some holy people wanna kill each other I'm a happy guy. But just look at how you're doing... not that well, huh?

I dispute the claim that every evil is from religion. Rather, I think that most evils spring from the negative aspects that man has attached to religion, rather than the intended thing God meant it to be.

It's beyond ridiculous: religion has convinced us that an invincible man watches our every step and keeps score in the sky. And if we break even one of his rules, he sends us to a place of suffering, torture, anguish, burning and choking until the end of time. What does that have to do with "love"?

It may not make sense, ( I don't think it has to most people i've tried explaining my view point to), but the way I learned it is that Hell is what everyone deserves anyway, so by offering a way to escape it great love is being shown, whereas, if you look at it as most people would- I.E. angry and vengeful at a disobedient creation that you made that was constantly disobeying you and ended up causing the death of your only son- you would see that it probably takes a divine sense of forgiveness and mercy to offer anyone who asks for mercy any mercy at all. In short- God dosen't have a real reason to bother saving anyone except for the simple reason of his love.

 

[Duh]

I learned it is that Hell is what everyone deserves anyway, so by offering a way to escape it great love is being shown, whereas, if you look at it as most people would- I.E. angry and vengeful at a disobedient creation that you made that was constantly disobeying you and ended up causing the death of your only son- you would see that it probably takes a divine sense of forgiveness and mercy to offer anyone who asks for mercy any mercy at all. In short- God dosen't have a real reason to bother saving anyone except for the simple reason of his love.

Except that god is supposedly an all knowing, all powerful being, which created everything and everything that ever happened is going according to his plan. With that in mind the whole - im saving you from what i made you do is a bit returded.

 

[Bromden]

There have actually been some interesting studies (according to one of the RSA lectures), which found that people tend to lie/steal less after going to confession. One proposed explanation was that it moves peoples' emotional state from a resigned "im bad/evil anyways" towards a clean slate, which motivates a reintegration into societies behaviorial norms.

How can one measure if someone is lying less than before? Also I am perfectly capable of not stealing without confessions. And isn't the "I'm bad/evil anyways" coming from the concept of original sin? That's one of the most hideous things a religious quasi-philosopher could invent.
I perfectly understand how talking your hidden **** out to someone can help you emotionally, I just think the church is using this method for their own advance.

Hell is what everyone deserves anyway, so by offering a way to escape it great love is being shown

The only ones who deserve Hell is those who are making a living out of other's fear of this concept.

 

[Duh]

There have actually been some interesting studies (according to one of the RSA lectures), which found that people tend to lie/steal less after going to confession. One proposed explanation was that it moves peoples' emotional state from a resigned "im bad/evil anyways" towards a clean slate, which motivates a reintegration into societies behaviorial norms.

How can one measure if someone is lying less than before?

In an experimental setting ofc. One example would be people reporting their own test score and being paid accordingly (while their actual test score is recorded without them noticing).

Also I am perfectly capable of not stealing without confessions.

You have never taken a pencil from your office? Whats the difference between stealing a pencil and stealing 20cents to buy one at the store? Do note its not really about you, but about the general mass. You as an individual may be serene in the way you act, but the large majority of people cheats and steals a little.

And isn't the "I'm bad/evil anyways" coming from the concept of original sin?

Im pretty sure the concept of good and bad is not exclusive to religion. Nor is giving in to that idea of self.

I perfectly understand how talking your hidden **** out to someone can help you emotionally, I just think the church is using this method for their own advance.

I dont disagree. Most things serve more than one purpose.

Here is the lecture, if you are interested - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmJay_qdNc

 

[Vissy]

I've never really fully been behind the all-knowing part. I mean, I believe in the complete divinity of God and such, but there are several instances in the Bible where He seems quite shocked at what is going on- for instance, when Adam and Eve eat of the fruit God dosen't seem to have expected that. That's just one way of looking at it, not sure which way I do.


Edit- in response to possible questioning of how this contradicts my signature: A plan is something that can be intervened on, if you don't know what's going to happen yet you can't intervene yet.

Dude, a God is not a God if he is not omnipotent. In fact, anything other than an omnipotent being could not be the God you have in mind. Are you sure that you are even talking about religion? This seems like worshipping the society and authority figures to me.

The God hasn't done a good job of this world in any case. In fact he's been extremely bad. People kill each other in his name, he forgot slavery from every country's bill of rights(and a whole lot of other things as well, seeing as they have been amended a couple of times each!) and somehow seems to support billions following his "chosen" authority figures through the Bible. God hates gays as well, also in the Bible. There's no wriggling out of it. It's all bull****. There is no God, there are only retards who run religion and use it for their own gains in the process of masturbating to their divine connection with God.

I dispute the claim that every evil is from religion. Rather, I think that most evils spring from the negative aspects that man has attached to religion, rather than the intended thing God meant it to be.

If man attached bad things to religion, does it not imply that religion is the base from which all of these things grew from? "My God has a bigger **** than your God" is the basic concept which has been misused since the birth of religion, and even if someone had good intentions while creating it(just for the sake of argument!), it's honestly not that relevant anymore in any case - religion has accomplished the ruin of our once promising species.

By the way, I am a happy individual. I don't see hope for us as a collective entity, not as long as religion is around, but I'm a personal optimist.

I'm feeling good right now, so I'll answer to this segment as well.

I learned it is that Hell is what everyone deserves anyway, so by offering a way to escape it great love is being shown

So by simply being born into this world, you deserve to go to a place of eternal suffering, anguish and torture where you will choke, burn, die, scream, over and over again until the end of time? Unless you believe in a God? Let me tell you what that is, it's manipulation. It's simple manipulation. The simplest form, actually. "Worship our god or die screaming." That's what the crusaders used to say? Oh, wait, they just killed everyone. And you'd have to be very stupid to buy that crap anyway. A man dressed in a long skirt wearing a funny hat tells you that when you die you go to Hell, where you will [...], but by doing what the man in a long skirt and wearing a funny hat says, you can avoid that fate.

if you look at it as most people would- I.E. angry and vengeful at a disobedient creation that you made that was constantly disobeying you and ended up causing the death of your only son- you would see that it probably takes a divine sense of forgiveness and mercy to offer anyone who asks for mercy any mercy at all.

You think it's 'divine' to forgive someone who killed your son? What if god isn't forgiving them at all? What if he's just getting them up there so he can order the angels to beat these semantic believers to the other side of the universe? And this, by the way, is just as valid a theory as the one that the heaven is a paradise.

Another point here: if it only requires great love to get to Heaven, where does the organized religion part come in? This seems to me to be the central problem in all these arguments. If God truly wanted to give us a chance, I think he'd have made organized religion a little more appealing and not forcing them to cope by brainwashing children to follow Him.

In short- God dosen't have a real reason to bother saving anyone except for the simple reason of his love.

Or because he needs money.

 

[Bromden]

Also I am perfectly capable of not stealing without confessions.

You have never taken a pencil from your office? Whats the difference between stealing a pencil and stealing 20cents to buy one at the store? Do note its not really about you, but about the general mass. You as an individual may be serene in the way you act, but the large majority of people cheats and steals a little.

Now that you say it, I did stole half a bottle of whiskey last year. But other than that, not much. Not because I'm so ****ing honest and righteous, but because I despise pettyness. As in the video you posted (good one, btw), the small things add up, even in a single person. A lot's of petty mischiefs make a petty man.

And isn't the "I'm bad/evil anyways" coming from the concept of original sin?

Im pretty sure the concept of good and bad is not exclusive to religion. Nor is giving in to that idea of self.

The concept is not theirs originally, but they made a helluva good job on emphasizing it. And I can't say it enough that the idea of original sin is a horrible thing, and I pity anyone who subconsciously sucked on it as a youth.

 

[Mad Vader]

And isn't the "I'm bad/evil anyways" coming from the concept of original sin?

Im pretty sure the concept of good and bad is not exclusive to religion. Nor is giving in to that idea of self.

The concept is not theirs originally, but they made a helluva good job on emphasizing it. And I can't say it enough that the idea of original sin is a horrible thing, and I pity anyone who subconsciously sucked on it as a youth.

Couldn't agree more. It's a horrible concept abusing normal feelings of guilt or inducing new ones to subordinate people to a religious organization.
Also very useful in marketing (charities, low-cal food, environment), but at least they only want your money.