Origins of Scythians
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Khassaki
lol Scythians werent zoroastrian (I know you learned this from wikipedia :p)Allegro said:
1stKh@n
Knight at Arms
Im a Turk and im sure that the first Turks were not europeans but they lived in far east in the north of china and the Turks were the ones who forced Chinese Rulers to build the Great Wall of China.After that Turks moved to Europe in 4th century along with some other nations which forced the first age to end and medieval age to start.I dont know if im all true about this but i know it like this.
Not that bright are we?Kataphraktos said:
You know, people learn things over time. Also there has been contributions to the thread too before you two appeared, they might have helped my opinions take shape.
Still insisting on being a bigot and refusing to understand the concept of Wikipedia? It's at least better than sources with surnames like "of Turkish Blood", "The real Turk", "Imba Race".Kataphraktos said:
No mister, I tend to not believe in things till i see some proper verification. The same reason I dont believe Panturkist bigots.
Heredotus' interpretation of Scythian religion helped me understand them not being Tengriist. He refers to Scythian gods with their Hellenic names but its just how he interpretes them. Same gods, different names. http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Scythians.html
Here is an examination regarding their religious gods and symbols; http://anthroglobe.info/docs/Sergei/scythian-sarmatian-religion.htm
Merlkir
Maximum Pain said:
translation from Turkish gibberish = "I had brain surgery, I am very dumb."
Seriously, how can you present an argument as "This is how it is, I don't know if I'm right, but this is how it is, because I think so."
This kind of propaganga "science" makes me sick. :/
He did not state anything like that, he just wrote what "he knows" not "how it is" and he claims he might be wrong. At last that is how I understood it.
He is also right in general as Turks are not Europeans, they did migrate west, they did had extensive contact with Chinese and they forced Chinese to build wall. They were not only people to do so but sure were part of bunch. If migration of nomadic people from East was reason for the end of classical era is questionable, but they for sure were part of that process. Of course not modern Turks but Turkic people of whom modern Turks are just one part.
Allegro said:
Scythians were Zoroastrien, and your aunt's grandfather came from Mars.
"
Archeological evidence and histographies shows a worldview of Sakas, similar to that of ancient German and Scandinavian traditions and closely related to that of present-day Kazakhs and Mongols. It is theorized that they believed Man was a part of the Universe, Cosmos, Heaven, Sun, mountains, river, in total nature, and shows close affinities with Shamanism and Tengriism which are still practiced today, from Kazakhstan to Siberia which conceive of God as related to Cosmic laws and forces. However, modern Kazakhs are Muslim, most modern Mongols are Buddhists, and Siberian shamanism is not known to be directly connected to Indo-European religion.
It has been further claimed that Saka (or Scythian) animal-stylized art closely resembles Sumerian art, and that the contemporary Kazakh language has about 500 words in common with the Sumerian language. This is one of a number of claims about the Sumerian language not recognized by mainstream scholars."
I you don't now what Tengri is (Dengir in Sumerian, Tanrı in Turkish) you'd better don't speak your mind. Because without necessary knowledge, words don't mean anything. First a mind have to collect the necessary knowledge to compare things related to each other. Than you start to have an idea supported by knowledge (not just things you read or heard about, but also people you lived with, and stories told to you by your grandfather when you were a child, etc.) Without knowing the similarities between Greek mythology and Turkic mythology and European mythology. If you don't know what a certain animal meant in Turkic culture and you saw artifacts resembling that animal in Iran and you said that is Persian, there is a problem with the logic of this assumption. I can write many other things but it won't change anything.
After all these, you speak your mind and your words wouldn't be "Scythians were Zoroastrien!"
Why dont you come up with evidences instead of talking gibberish? Please enlighten us with your knowledge about Scythian religion, and do try presenting some evidences. Your only sources are Panturkist so called historians whom I highly doubt the objectivities. Their interpretations and transcriptions are likely to be far off from representing truth, they can relate anybody to Turks simply because they breathed the same air. You keep telling us about science but you dont know **** about science, you are just a bigot who thinks rest of the world is plotting against Turks.
Here is a man researching Scythian origins of Hungarians.
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/ScythianLangDudas.htm
The Language of the Scythians, through the works of Herodotus
by Rudolf Dudás
Here are some key points:
This is very important and it's true for the rest of the world including Turkey as well:
The very narrowly confined knowledge of the Finno-Ugrian researchers, who often made and still make huge historic blunders, were proven to be impossible by archeologists, but they still hid behind their invented history and managed to convince the world of this. This after the Magyar Historic Academy at this same time was taken over by a totally foreign spirit and for this the academicians of today cannot take responsibility; however now in a more independent national environment, they could be the forerunners of those who correct these many negative historic views from what existed prior to 1848. However they have only isolated themselves from all the new discoveries of archeology, genetics, mythology and other linguistic ties and have done nothing to balance or update their views, but continued to block any new ideas from being studied and from surfacing, throwing anyone out of work who dares to challenge any aspect of their simplistic and idealized views. Indeed, despite the education and scientific foundation of some of propagators of these new ideas, they are branded with a range of vile names, from simply amateurs, dilatants, to ultranationalists to racists. Scientific proofs or discussions are thrown out the window.
On the archeological line it is worth mentioning the work of Dr Kornél Bakay's work in the Altai Mountains, where he found new Scythian rockdrawings. It is well known that the people there (as well as in Southern Russia and Hungary) have called these burial mounds (barrows) with the name "kur-gan", which in Hungarian is also "kor-hány", and used as an elevated burial grave. Actually the Hungarian etymology of this word is better than the Turkic one and isn't a loan word as claimed, but no one cares to hear that. Kor,Kur=mountain,hill in FinnUgor & Sumerian + hány=to pile up. Hant-ol however also means to burry by piling on dirt. The word is also explainable in Sumerian/Scythian as "mound of the steppes" (KUR-GÁN).
"(My note to this paragraph: Kur-Gan consists of two words Kur: To build, to install Gan: to combine, pile up, abundant, etc) Lets look at this Turkic word: Yorgan: Ör (to knit), or YOR: (to get tired) gan: (to pile up (feathers?) into something)"
In examining the many Hungarian place names, we run into many, which were first written using the Székely Hungarian-Hun runic writing, which is unlike the Germanic runes. Most of these were prechristian in origin from Western Asia, and perhaps that’s why the pope banned it's use during the time of St.Stephen, the first Catholic King of Hungary.
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/ScythianLangDudas.htm
The Language of the Scythians, through the works of Herodotus
by Rudolf Dudás
Here are some key points:
This is very important and it's true for the rest of the world including Turkey as well:
The very narrowly confined knowledge of the Finno-Ugrian researchers, who often made and still make huge historic blunders, were proven to be impossible by archeologists, but they still hid behind their invented history and managed to convince the world of this. This after the Magyar Historic Academy at this same time was taken over by a totally foreign spirit and for this the academicians of today cannot take responsibility; however now in a more independent national environment, they could be the forerunners of those who correct these many negative historic views from what existed prior to 1848. However they have only isolated themselves from all the new discoveries of archeology, genetics, mythology and other linguistic ties and have done nothing to balance or update their views, but continued to block any new ideas from being studied and from surfacing, throwing anyone out of work who dares to challenge any aspect of their simplistic and idealized views. Indeed, despite the education and scientific foundation of some of propagators of these new ideas, they are branded with a range of vile names, from simply amateurs, dilatants, to ultranationalists to racists. Scientific proofs or discussions are thrown out the window.
On the archeological line it is worth mentioning the work of Dr Kornél Bakay's work in the Altai Mountains, where he found new Scythian rockdrawings. It is well known that the people there (as well as in Southern Russia and Hungary) have called these burial mounds (barrows) with the name "kur-gan", which in Hungarian is also "kor-hány", and used as an elevated burial grave. Actually the Hungarian etymology of this word is better than the Turkic one and isn't a loan word as claimed, but no one cares to hear that. Kor,Kur=mountain,hill in FinnUgor & Sumerian + hány=to pile up. Hant-ol however also means to burry by piling on dirt. The word is also explainable in Sumerian/Scythian as "mound of the steppes" (KUR-GÁN).
"(My note to this paragraph: Kur-Gan consists of two words Kur: To build, to install Gan: to combine, pile up, abundant, etc) Lets look at this Turkic word: Yorgan: Ör (to knit), or YOR: (to get tired) gan: (to pile up (feathers?) into something)"
In examining the many Hungarian place names, we run into many, which were first written using the Székely Hungarian-Hun runic writing, which is unlike the Germanic runes. Most of these were prechristian in origin from Western Asia, and perhaps that’s why the pope banned it's use during the time of St.Stephen, the first Catholic King of Hungary.
Herodotus: On The Customs of the Persians, c. 430 BCE
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/reference/herodotus.htm
...
"they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly. This comes, I think, from their not believing the gods to have the same nature with men, as the Greeks imagine. Their wont, however, is to ascend the summits of the loftiest mountains, and there to offer sacrifice to Zeus, which is the name they give to the whole circuit of the firmament. They likewise offer to the sun and moon, to the earth, to fire, to water, and to the winds. These are the only gods whose worship has come down to them from ancient times. At a later period they began the worship of Urania, which they borrowed from the Arabians and Assyrians. Mylitta is the name by which the Assyrians know this goddess, whom the Arabians call Alitta, and the Persians Mitra. (this is very important as it is the foundation of today's major Christianity)
...
It is said that the body of a male Persian is never buried, until it has been torn either by a dog or a bird of prey.
"
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/reference/herodotus.htm
...
"they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly. This comes, I think, from their not believing the gods to have the same nature with men, as the Greeks imagine. Their wont, however, is to ascend the summits of the loftiest mountains, and there to offer sacrifice to Zeus, which is the name they give to the whole circuit of the firmament. They likewise offer to the sun and moon, to the earth, to fire, to water, and to the winds. These are the only gods whose worship has come down to them from ancient times. At a later period they began the worship of Urania, which they borrowed from the Arabians and Assyrians. Mylitta is the name by which the Assyrians know this goddess, whom the Arabians call Alitta, and the Persians Mitra. (this is very important as it is the foundation of today's major Christianity)
...
It is said that the body of a male Persian is never buried, until it has been torn either by a dog or a bird of prey.
"
Kataphraktos said:
I think Scythians contributed to Zoroastrian religion, but they were not Zoroastrian.
Let me link you to a page explaining what the religion of Scyhthians most probably was. It is a man from a nation that lived there for a long time, apparently he knows things similar to what I know:
From the free book Kipchaks by Murad Adji:
http://adji.ru/book11_1.html
"At the time when Sergei Rudenko was digging out evidence of Turkic culture, no one dared speak out or write the truth about it. A scientist risking a mere mention of it could land in jail, or even be shot, in imperial Russia and later, in the Soviet Union. The subject was a strong taboo.
What anyone could discuss, without fear of repression, were the Scythians. Their living and burial sites could be unearthed and explored. And discuss and explore them the scientists did. They passed up some Scythian themes, however. Like, for example, the language the Scythians communicated in with one another, where they came from or, what is most important, who they were, in the first place.
All these themes were under a harsh ban or rather a tacit covenant among researchers to avoid discussing them. Did the Scythians come from nowhere and speak a language no one knew anything about? As simple as that, did they just turn up suddenly in the steppes of modern Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, southern Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria and Hungary? Only to vanish in no time into the unknown. A situation you never see in real life.
The Greek writer, Herodotus, was the first European to tell the Western world about the Scythians. In his "History" he wrote about the life of this steppe race and its fetes and beliefs, traditions and fighting ability. Even about their outward appearance and clothing.
According to Herodotus, the Scythians had come to the European steppes from the East. A long way rather… But wherefrom, he did not know, his knowledge of worldwide geography was clearly limited, and very much so. They certainly could only come from the Altai Mountains, a land the Greeks had never heard about, and nowhere else.
Much time later, when scholars learned about the Altai and the Turkis, they developed an apprehension that the Scythians were actually Turkis who had migrated from the Altai, or more exactly, those of their tribes who had been forced to leave their native lands forever, for one reason or another.
Their apprehensions were not devoid of reason, because the Scythians and Turkis belonged to the same culture. Looking for differences is like trying to find dissimilarities in twins - a waste of time.
The Russian historian, Andrei Lyzlov, suggested some three hundred years ago that Scythians were directly related to Turkis. His sensational idea was rejected by the country's rulers, however, and the scholar had sovereign wrath turned against him. Czar Peter the Great, the sworn enemy of the Turkic people, who had overrun the Great Steppe and turned the free Turkic land into Russia's colony, hated the idea. After all these wrongdoings, he wanted to blot out the truth that the Turkis were native to Russia and Ukraine, both of which had been their homeland from the beginnings of history. And he now asserted that the Turkic people had not, nor ever had, a homeland or culture. The direct effect of his assertions was that Russian historians started referring to the Turkic people as "savage nomads" and "accursed Tatars".
Scholars that were soon coming to Russia from the West in droves were paid huge sums to speak and write about Scythians as Slavs and Turkis, if things ever came to that, as barbarous nomads, no less.
From that time on the truth was no longer heard about the Turkis and Scythians. It was replaced by a vicious lie that was being implanted costs regardless. No one believed it, though, so outrageous the fabrication was. What did Slavs have to do with all that? They never lived in steppes; rather, they were forest dwellers.
To save face, another lie was cooked up - the Scythians, you know, came from Persia and, sure enough, they spoke Persian. To much regret, this fantasy has taken root and is very much alive in Russian historical science today.
What is more, the ignoramuses remain unconvinced by written evidence found in Scythian mounds scribbled in Turkic runes. Nothing can make them change their mind. Indeed, everyone sees whatever he wants to see.
The truth does not become a lie even if it is banned. It continues to beckon honest researchers. Fortunately, Professor Rudenko was one of them.
He did not defy the ban, though - doing so could certainly bring disaster on his head. Rather, he provided an accurate account of the Turkis and their culture in his books. This is the main merit of his writings which are to be read between the lines (the practice followed by both writers and readers in times of artistic freedom suppression).
Professor Rudenko found that the Scythians had lived in the Altai, whence they migrated to Europe; that they were a Turkic people, speaking and writing in a Turkic language. According to Herodotus, they called themselves Scoltes.
Iranians and Indians knew them as Sak (Shak), a name derived from the ancient Turkic word sakla, which translates as "save" (edit: actually it probably came from "ASOK ÖYÜ" meaning Land of As and Ok". Appropriately, the Scythians abandoned the Altai, leaving it in full dignity, with the faith of their ancestors in their hearts. Science is yet to explain what forced the Scythians to forsake their homeland. For now, little is known about the background of their migration.
Most probably, too much blood had been spilled in the Altai at that time, two and half thousand years ago, as high-pitched quarrels grew into warfare. Some tribes were upholding, arms in hand, the supremacy of the old gods (Yer-Su, Ulghen and Erlik) (edit: these were very ancient Gods from pagan times of Turks; The Trinity "YerSu:EarthWater"), while others were asserting the power of their new God of Heaven, the Almighty Tengri.
For the first time in human history, the world was witness to a struggle between polytheistic paganism and a new, monotheistic religion. It was a war of faiths.
The old believers, the Scyths (Scythians) (or Scoltes or Sacae) backed down and withdrew from the battlefield. Certainly, they were not a new tribal confederation, one that turned up suddenly and vanished just as unexpectedly without a trace, like a meteorite in a blaze of fire. No, they were part of a race that had been and will be."
Merlkir
It's pointless, really. You present quasievidence and pseudoscience. I've seen dudes like you post about proto-Slavs being founders of the Chinese empire, or FYROM maniacs claiming the third type of writing on the Rosetta stone is ancient Macedonian language.
And these guys were convincing, at least to people who know nothing about linguistics and archeology - they too found ridiculous similarities in words which were in no way related. One of them got busted when he tried linking Japanese with slavic languages, not knowing that the Japanese use a lot of words taken from american english.
Your romantic tales are full of conspiracy theories, persecution, hidden truth and that makes you feel good, because you're one of the chosen nation. Hey, nothing to be angry about, Jews are like that too.
And these guys were convincing, at least to people who know nothing about linguistics and archeology - they too found ridiculous similarities in words which were in no way related. One of them got busted when he tried linking Japanese with slavic languages, not knowing that the Japanese use a lot of words taken from american english.
Your romantic tales are full of conspiracy theories, persecution, hidden truth and that makes you feel good, because you're one of the chosen nation. Hey, nothing to be angry about, Jews are like that too.
Don't know about their rituals but they worshipped Zoroastrian gods, they at least werent similar to Turks in their religion.ancalimon said:
As for your last link and quote, As Merlkir has said it's pseudo science. No single evidence, just made up stories and unprofessionally emotional.
Turks migh have used a similar alphabet to Scythians, thats because they adopted it like the many other things they did from steppe cultures. And do please explain how the **** did Caucasian race end up in Altai Mountain if they did not migrate from west? Altaic language speakers were Mongoloid at the beginning, suck it up.
Yvain
Regular
Just a quick comment: I'm surprised no one mentioned the Diadochoi kingdoms left in the wake of Alexander's conquest in relation to Pakistan/Afghanistan natives, as well as Iranians, having European features such as blonde hair, light eyes, etc. The Seleucid Empire's capital was in modern day Iran, and many Greek colonists/military settlers came over to the region in Alexander's Hellenistic plan of mixing the Persians and Greek cultures. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Greek kingdom of Bactria went through a similar phase, receiving an influx of Greek military settlers and their families. When two cultures live together, they will eventually marry members of the opposite culture. Considering the Diadochoi/Hellenistic era lasted several hundred years, isn't it obvious that in these areas where there was major Greek colonization, that the people living in these areas have inherited some Greek traits?
Merlkir
Yvain said:
"blaming" light hair and blue eyes on Greek colonists in these areas seems very far fetched. If only because these features wouldn't exactly qualify as Greek traits. (contrary to popular belief, Alexander wasn't blonde)
Merlkir
I'd be careful with "Aryan" too.
(jeez, talking about history this distant is awful. There's very little usable terminology, very little actual knowledge and tons of nationalist pricks.)
(jeez, talking about history this distant is awful. There's very little usable terminology, very little actual knowledge and tons of nationalist pricks.)
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