My rantings about where the updates are going

[Lopezgdanny]

Hi
I have been playing Bannerlord for some time, but I accept I'm not really skilled on it, so I have been just playing in "normal" mode (the easiest one), I guess I'm more of a casual player.
I decided to try the beta branch in hopes to experience fixes which haven't reached the main branch yet, and hoping to also help by reporting any glitches I found so they were fixed.
But after a while, I wanted to enjoy some casual gameplay, so I decided to uninstall the beta and go back to the main branch (I don't even know if there's a way to have both installed in the same PC at the same time).
And after I started a new game in the 1.1.6, I realized something.
I really don't like the npc combat AI on beta
Sure, at least it's not a blockfest anymore (because they did random blocks every direction randomly, looking like they had seizures or something), but they mostly preffer to block when they see you aproach them (I haven't noticed if it just happens with your character, or if they react the same way to any other NPC who reaches them), and it's still pretty impossible for me to hit them with a lance on a horse, because I only have 2 attack patterns that way, so the NPC just need to block in one of those 2 patterns.
In the 1.1.6 this doesn't happen, and the npcs seem "as incompetent as mee", so for me at least they seem more "human". Whenever I'm in a tournament, and I have to use a spear on a horse (mostly in the khuzait tournaments) I just thought to myself "I won't be able to hit the enemy", because they start blocking even before I reach them, and in 1.1.6 it seems way easier to hit the enemies with a spear while mounted.
The shield bash seems to have no usefulness at all in 1.2 beta, because the enemies pretty much evade it, or get hit but don't really last long to recover back, at least in 1.1.6 they get stunned for a bit enough so you can hit them with your main weapon. Same thing with kicks.
So, when I installed and played 1.1.6, that felt really refreshing when I experienced the old combat system again.

It saddens me a bit how it seems inevitable to have those changes in the coming 1.2, but I guess I'm a minority, and this game is more for people who likes to experience challenges. I'm also interested in your opinions too, and hope this thread doesn't get derailed.

 

[Vaan2020]

I also play the Game on normal as i am a Casual player. I agree that bannerlord has a certain Skill level that the player need to have. I struggled alot in this game believe me but after a handful times of trial and error i managed to survive the beginning of the game. I am waiting on the 1.2 update for ps4/Ps5. I admit i had toughts more then once, what if the update make it more difficult then it already is. The Battles will be more Challenging and i think the sieges will be more Difficult with the things they added. Its more realistic but i hope the fun factor will not go away making the game more frustrating as its more difficult then before. Grtz Vaan.

 

[Lopezgdanny]

For me, one of the things that annoyed me with the beta, was the way the npcs react to lancers.
When you barely prepare your attack (just up or down if you are mounted), the enemy seems to have this "spidey sense" and immediately reacts to your attack with the needed defense.
Yes, when they just implemented the "better combat AI" you could see the enemy randomly spawning the defense position from all angles, to which some seemed to say "that just made it way easier, you just have to hit them in the opposite direction they are defending", sadly I don't have that kind of skill (and I doubt I'll even reach there, I'm not that dedicated to the game).

So in the beta, whenever I joined a Khuzait tournament, and I got given a horse and lance, I just blamed it because I knew I wouldn't be able to hit anything, the enemy reacts way too robotic to your current/possible attack, and will mostly like parry it. In the current 1.1.6 main branch, that doesn't happen, and I felt that NPC behavior was "more natural" (at least it seemed around my same level in reaction).

Maybe it'd be good if they added some Easy/Casual NPC combat level option too when starting the game, which would be the current 1.1.6 AI, but I don't know how many people are in the same position as me.

I'm not the kind who would go to a "game which requires skills" and rant about how it's too hard to play, I know that game requires a base set of skill to play, and it's directed to certain group of people, which have fun with the high difficulty, but when I started playing this, it wasn't that hard, and making it way harder in general, without an option for the easy gameplay I was having, makes me sad.

 

[froggyluv]

Maybe it'd be good if they added some Easy/Casual NPC combat level option too when starting the game, which would be the current 1.1.6 AI, but I don't know how many people are in the same position as me.

Why dont you just change the Combat Difficulty to easier in beginning if it bothers you?

 

[Lopezgdanny]

Why dont you just change the Combat Difficulty to easier in beginning if it bothers you?

The "easier" is normal, there's no easy mode, and I always play on that

 

[froggyluv]

The "easier" is normal, there's no easy mode, and I always play on that

I dont know what to tell you if that feels hard - i'm an old man but i guess years of playing Warband Clan duels the bots always feel pretty easy to me

 

[Lopezgdanny]

I dont know what to tell you if that feels hard - i'm an old man but i guess years of playing Warband Clan duels the bots always feel pretty easy to me

I also played warband, and I find the 1.1.6 npc easy, but the 1.2 ones aren't like that, I wonder if you can beat 2 foot soldiers with 1 sword, or hit a looter with a spear on a horse (you probably can, but I can't).

 

[geala]

A lot depends on the ingame skill level, I think. I don't have problems with spears on horseback, but duels in early game with onehanded and shield in 1.2 are a nightmare for me. Shield bashing and kicking are totally useless, you have to more or less load your hits by holding the attack and then interfere into hits of the adversary. Which is very difficult with low weapon skills because the NPC hits faster.

Maybe it has to be this way, reminds me to Warband early combat (which I hated). At least it does make some sense that a newbie player cannot cope with T4/5 or T6 or well trained lords. BTW it is interesting that the new 1.2 vanilla combat is much more difficult than melee combat with the Realistic Battle Mod. They block better in the mod but you have some methods to overcome the godlike NPC blocking. In vanilla you don't.

 

[veronicaaltoids]

I would agree with you, I just played the 1.2.5, and I found it surprisingly the enemy become very likely to block attack and parry
even the lowest bandit know how to block, it make me very difficult to kill them, compare with previous game playing experience

the blocking feature is great, but I think it should make it more realistic, a peasant with basic weapon shouldn't block an elite warrior with superior armor and weapon, that wouldn't make any sense. How come a peasant on foot can block a well-armor knight riding with heavy armor and heavy weapon?

but oh well, I guess it just make the game more interesting
I may depend on my superior archery skill : )

 

[JunKeteer]

It's entirely dependent on you just needing that 0.5% faster swing speed or other similar perks to eventually getting a hit through between the back and forth hit shield>block>hit shield>block>hit shield>block. I don't know how it besides bannerlord difficulty but once you get those faster swing speed perks (first perk of 1-hand, and there's a shieldless one too), it becomes trivial. All of it boils down to just having the faster swing/thrust speed which simple means just having more hours in that playthrough with that weapon.

Besides that, there's no mechanic to really counteract it:

• no weapon/speed damage difference = slower block recovery for opponent
• no 'combo' like repeated downstrikes = +.5% faster swing / more damage to shields/slower block recovery for opponent
• no elevation mechanic (though can understand why not)
• no stamina mechanic
• no limb damage (ie hitting sword arm reduces swing speed or damage, or hitting leg reduces athletics)
• no health degradation effect (ie 50% hp or less = minus stats/slower swing/etc...)

 

[Lopezgdanny]

I guess we won't be able to pull stuff like this anymore

 

[froggyluv]

I also played warband, and I find the 1.1.6 npc easy, but the 1.2 ones aren't like that, I wonder if you can beat 2 foot soldiers with 1 sword, or hit a looter with a spear on a horse (you probably can, but I can't).

I can definitely hit soldier with spear on horse and sometimes can beat 2 opponents with just a sword but yes its certainly tougher than Warband as it should be. Fighting two guys in any capacity is ALOT tougher than one. In Warband you could also kite enemies in to a virtua conga line dispensing one after the next which was a cheese. On the other hand in Warband , once you struck an enemy he would temporarily ragdoll and his collision would "ghost out" allowing the guy behind him to strike straight thru his body to yours which always felt cheap.

Overall i think the problem has been that lower tiered AI feel pretty much the same as higher tier, like they can mechanically block almost every attack thats expected the exact same. They've stated that in the last patch changelog, we will be able to feel the difference between fighting higher and lower tiered AI more but I havent tested it enough yet to see if thats true.

Edit: just watched that video above and yeah, if thats what you're after im in total disagreement -thats like an ego-shooter.

 

[Lopezgdanny]

if thats what you're after im in total disagreement -thats like an ego-shooter.

In my defense I don't have enough skill to do something like that even in 1.1.6, I can barely aim to an enemy while ridding a horse and carrying a spear, and knowing that the enemy will more likely to parry, and suddenly stop the attack from a full speed horse with some farming tool (because that has happened to me in beta), I feel like it's inevitable that I won't be able to even enjoy the combat part.
At least it seems fair for the npc combat, so my companions/soldiers fight way better than me in the beta, or have better luck to connect attacks.
I haven't noticed, but I think the npc react that way just against the player, but it may be just me seeing things due my inferior skill.

Thank you all for your opinions too. It is also giving me some more open mindset knowing your experiences.

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

We are investigating the blocking performance of low level troops. It may be a bug.

 

[JunKeteer]

In my defense I don't have enough skill to do something like that even in 1.1.6, I can barely aim to an enemy while ridding a horse and carrying a spear, and knowing that the enemy will more likely to parry, and suddenly stop the attack from a full speed horse with some farming tool (because that has happened to me in beta), I feel like it's inevitable that I won't be able to even enjoy the combat part.
At least it seems fair for the npc combat, so my companions/soldiers fight way better than me in the beta, or have better luck to connect attacks.
I haven't noticed, but I think the npc react that way just against the player, but it may be just me seeing things due my inferior skill.

Thank you all for your opinions too. It is also giving me some more open mindset knowing your experiences.

BL, it's less about you as a 'hero' (as it was in WB), it's more about managing your troops (once you get through the unwieldy UI/system) in battle than charging in solo.
WB, you could solo 1v5+ given how the AI worked; in BL, even 1v2 can be challenging. AI coding is improved compared to WB, yet we are still stuck in the old/dated left-right-up-down attack module only.

 

[RJ_Sera]

The AI is really hard lately, they block really fast, they bait attacks alot, they cancel animations and block right away. I savescum to see If it's just randomly happen but no, the final round almost impossible. I have almost 2k hours in this game, I dont say I'm an expert in melee but atleast I know how to fight in this game, hard to believe but I spent maybe 5-600hours in practice fight coz I really like it. I know lost of people here or even youtuber Str... said that the new blocking AI is easy, Let's just say we don't cheese by running around and keep swinging by shouder or exploit the high athletic trick, Try a new sandbox save, find your first tournament especially 2handed final round and come back here. These are now very hard, There is a video of Str... naked wining 12 tournament, yea sure, 0 skill points, no items but it doesn't mean it's easy. He has maybe several thounsands of hours,and his Bannerlord's video job I don't know but look he still stuggle in some 1v1 fight
Imagine a guy just bought bannerlord and complain about how hard the AI is, then bunch of people belittle him
For me, the new blocking AI is very hard. That's my opinion

 

[RJ_Sera]

I can definitely hit soldier with spear on horse and sometimes can beat 2 opponents with just a sword but yes its certainly tougher than Warband as it should be. Fighting two guys in any capacity is ALOT tougher than one. In Warband you could also kite enemies in to a virtua conga line dispensing one after the next which was a cheese. On the other hand in Warband , once you struck an enemy he would temporarily ragdoll and his collision would "ghost out" allowing the guy behind him to strike straight thru his body to yours which always felt cheap.

Overall i think the problem has been that lower tiered AI feel pretty much the same as higher tier, like they can mechanically block almost every attack thats expected the exact same. They've stated that in the last patch changelog, we will be able to feel the difference between fighting higher and lower tiered AI more but I havent tested it enough yet to see if thats true.

Edit: just watched that video above and yeah, if thats what you're after im in total disagreement -thats like an ego-shooter.

today tournament, i see a levy crossbowmen vlandia kill vlandia champion 1v1 using polearm. the combat AI seems random, the low tier troops sometimes bait alot and cancel its animtion to block then suddenly swing at the right time
even more, if 1v1 looter and i'm on horse, i can never hit him, he block every charge. that's really annoy

 

[froggyluv]

In my defense I don't have enough skill to do something like that even in 1.1.6, I can barely aim to an enemy while ridding a horse and carrying a spear, and knowing that the enemy will more likely to parry, and suddenly stop the attack from a full speed horse with some farming tool (because that has happened to me in beta), I feel like it's inevitable that I won't be able to even enjoy the combat part

Yeah I hear ya and understand but would also say its very hard to get a believable "human-like" reaction from so many (potentially) AI at once. Meaning, what would a real person do if a War Horse was charging them and they had a small sickle? the'd obviously dodge, jump to their side, sidestep, somersault whatever to avoid that challenge. The thing is, theres just no way you can have that robust a reaction in split second time with so many units. So its kinda like a simplified solution, a block is much less CPU expensive than adding in a quick movement reaction. But that dont mean it shouldnt be calibrated, they could still add more of an unbalancing effect because lets be honest, if you somehow did actually block a lance with a small weapon, you still be pushed back, unbalanced, break a wrist or even fall. That adds to another problem, we already have the ability to knock over troops with our horses like bowling alley pins -do we want more of that?

I guess the last solution would be quick determining factor of infantry troops skill level and time facing incoming Cav threat could better determine if he could even pull off a Block -but that check again may be too expensive for the CPU

We are investigating the blocking performance of low level troops. It may be a bug.

Thats good to hear.

today tournament, i see a levy crossbowmen vlandia kill vlandia champion 1v1 using polearm. the combat AI seems random, the low tier troops sometimes bait alot and cancel its animtion to block then suddenly swing at the right time
even more, if 1v1 looter and i'm on horse, i can never hit him, he block every charge. that's really annoy

yes I would agree the low tier troops do a little too well and there's not enough disparity to fear the much more highly trained troop - hopefully it keeps getting calibrated

 

[RJ_Sera]

maybe the weapon with shorter than 69 legth will not be able to block polearm

 

[Akka]

We are investigating the blocking performance of low level troops. It may be a bug.

I'd like to repeat the suggestion that each weapon should have a limit to its blocking power depending on its size and the wielder's ability, so that it's not possible to just block a hit that is too strong.