Ive just read the whole topic, and i must say it sounds pretty good! But i have a few questions.
Firstly, what about deserters? Will they still act like their other faction members and not join you if you are not of their faction? Since theyre deserters, they should be willing to join anyone, not held back by their factions' loyalties and stuff. Like they say ingame, they are "free men"
Also, what about prisoners?
Another thing, shouldnt you give archers at least a short sword? i mean, a dagger is completely useless ingame. If a infantry wave goes towards them, theyll probably die without getting any kills
Another thing, shouldnt you give archers at least a short sword? i mean, a dagger is completely useless ingame. If a infantry wave goes towards them, theyll probably die without getting any kills
Yes I plan to make this compatible/based on my archery tweaks, and as such the tweaks will be included with this submod.
Infernalwaffles said:
Another thing, shouldnt you give archers at least a short sword? i mean, a dagger is completely useless ingame. If a infantry wave goes towards them, theyll probably die without getting any kills
For the sake of variety, each faction's archers will be different. The purpose is to vary the way you use each army and each troop type if you want to build a mixed army, so that you don't just use the same tactics all the time even if you're using different troops, like mixing Swadian and Vaegir archers together because they're all archers anyway.
The way I see it based on realistic armies they were based on:
Swadians, based on English and North European armies = powerful longbowmen that are not very good in melee, perhaps knives and clubs as secondary weapons. Their usage is to line them up in two or more ranks formations and release their arrows on the enemy line to weaken them, if not obliterate them. After a few volleys, charge your cavalry and infantry (or use other tactics). This was the bread-and-butter tactic that the English armies used.
Vaegir, based on the Kievan Rus and armies of that region = good archers with excellent bows, decent at melee combat but not better than their actual infantry. Their usage is really just as support damage as they close with the enemy, as their real power comes from the shock troops. Two-handed weapons, and powerful well-equipped infantry.
Khergit, based on the Mongolian Horde = in real life, the Mongol horse archers were pure skirmishers and rarely had a real melee weapon on them, so they can ride faster and carry more arrows if necessary. To balance with the game mechanics, because AI isn't very good at skirmishing, I'll give them a generic sabre or axe, but they won't be great at using them. Their usage is as in real life, either as skirmishers or as constantly-moving flanker troops that encircle an enemy and fire from various angles.
Nord, based on the Vikings = in real life they didn't really employ that many archers as it didn't usually fit their style. But their archers are alright. I'm thinking I'll make them pure skirmishers as well, with a Nord sword, axe or spear as a secondary, which were common weapons for peasant fighters in those days. Their usage is similar to the Vaegirs, where they're really just support troops to soften the enemy up or keep the enemy pinned or in disarray while their main force, the shielded troops, closes with the enemy.
Rhodok, based on various European armies (Floris) = excellent crossbowmen that are also typically not great at melee combat (like the Swadians). Might have makeshift weapons as peasants might use, as the way I see it, the Rhodok Army only provides them with the crossbows, which is already a very expensive weapon to give to a peasant army. As another army that doesn't really use cavalry, I envision the Rhodoks to be heavily reliant on volley firing crossbow lines and numerous infantry of both professional soldiers and peasant militia. That said, their usage will be to form multiple ranks of crossbowmen firing in rolling volley. I've played with this and it's as fun as it sounds to play as a commander, if you're into that kind of thing. I've made up to 4 lines of crossbowmen and had them fire in succession. It's... devastating to say the least.
Sarranid, based on the various Arab, Persian and other armies in the region (Floris) = very flexible archers. They aren't dedicated to archery like most other armies, but at the same time they also use somewhat lighter bows, favoring speed and mobility over setting up and firing from a stationary position. These are the types of archers that fire on the move as you order them to close with the enemy. The armies of the region at the time were very mobile troops, using both horsemen and infantry in series of rapid assaults. The way I use them right now is as hit-and-run flanker troops.
Example usage from a real game with a prototype of the Sarranid troop tree:
Army composition:
10% heavy cavalry (lancers)
20% light cavalry (horse archers)
30% archers (actually they're better infantry than archers, but I need to differentiate them from the light infantry troops)
40% light infantry (actually many of them have bows and throwing spears)
The sample enemy is a Rhodok formation with shielded infantry and spearmen behind two rows of crossbowmen.
1. Position the heavy cavalry and archers together, with the archers in a line or rank formation and the heavy cavalry split into two wedges at the edges of the line. This is the main assault force.
2. Move the light cavalry off to the enemy's left flank, far away enough that the enemy doesn't choose to engage yet.
3. Move the light infantry off to the enemy's right flank, also far away enough.
4. Slowly pace your main assault force towards the enemy manually using the advance 10 paces command. Stay with them as commander.
5. While the enemy is trying to engage your main assault force using their ranged weapons, poke at their flank with your light cavalry. This should be enough to turn their flank a bit and distract their archers. The importance of this is because all their shields, spears and crossbows will be pointing one way. You need to disrupt that before mounting a real attack or else you're sending many of your troops to their deaths.
6. Pull the light cavalry back. Advance the light infantry while the main assault force is still advancing. This will send the enemy line into disarray, with some facing or trying to chase the light cavalry, some still trying to engage the main force and some trying to deal with your light infantry. This is why we needed the light cavalry. If they don't break formation yet, move to step 7. They won't break formation if they have superior numbers and think they can win. If they break formation, reposition the light cavalry behind them. You have completed an encirclement/pincer maneuver and are likely to defeat the enemy soon.
7. If they haven't broken formation, you need to pull the light infantry back out. This is where their mobile archers come in handy, as they'll be performing evasive fire backwards as their group pulls back. Your main assault force is still advancing.
8. As the enemy tries to pursue the infantry (they won't if they still have superior numbers--move to step 9 if they still have superior numbers), charge the main assault and the light cavalry. This is also a pincer maneuver.
9. If they still haven't broken formation, pull all of your troops back to their starting positions.
10. Assess if you have enough troops to continue the battle, if the enemy is still holding their formation (again, this happens if they have superior numbers). If you have enough troops, repeat. If not, retreat and recover your wounded. This is guerrilla tactics.
This is a real world tactic used by the Seljuk army, which is to harass a slower enemy's position. This is why they needed the mobility instead of having a strong fixed archer position.
A variant of this is to eliminate the need for a main force element and use your infantry to crawl all over the map, while the light cavalry harasses the enemy from the flanks.
These aren't the only ways to play the troops, but you can see the diversity and the possibility for advanced tactics. I guarantee you guys, if you're into tactical thinking, you're really going to enjoy this troop tree set.
Nord, based on the Vikings = in real life they didn't really employ that many archers as it didn't usually fit their style. But their archers are alright. I'm thinking I'll make them pure skirmishers as well, with a Nord sword, axe or spear as a secondary, which were common weapons for peasant fighters in those days. Their usage is similar to the Vaegirs, where they're really just support troops to soften the enemy up or keep the enemy pinned or in disarray while their main force, the shielded troops, closes with the enemy.
Here are some ideas:Viking archers were either men too poor to allow any other weapons than his hunting bow and knife/axe/spear or normal men, whose carried bow as their secondary weapon. These men would use bows to harass enemy in strong defensive position, and then probably would switch to melee. Or when they were to defend against great number of enemies Also in naval battles, but these don't belong here(Too bad that you don't have commands like "archers, pull out your shields and axes and join infantry" and vice versa).
Here, saga examples of bow usage:
Perhaps the most notable use of a bow in the sagas is Gunnar's single-handed defense at his home, Hlíðarendi (right), against an attack led by Gizurr hvíti, told in chapter 77 of Brennu-Njáls saga. From a loft in the upper level of the house, Gunnar used his bow to kill or wound ten of his opponents before his bow string was cut by one of the attackers.
In the battle on the ice at Vigrafjörður described in chapter 45 of Eyrbyggja saga, the sons of Þorbrandr took a defensive position on a rock above the ice, where they had good footing. Steinþórr and his men had a hard time on the ice against such a strong defense. Two Norwegians with Steinþórr ran a short distance across the ice to where they could fire arrows at those on the rocks, making things very dangerous for Þorbrand's sons.
Taken from: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_bow.htm
About bows:
Bows were made from the wood of a yew, ash, or elm. Typically, they were 1.6 to 2m (60 to 80 in) long. A complete bow found at Hedeby was made of yew and was 192cm long
The estimated draw weight of one 10th century bow is 90lbs (40kgf), and the effective range of this weapon was about 200m (650ft).
However, medieval Icelandic law gives a different estimate. The distance of the flight of an arrow, ördrag (bowshot) was a unit of measure commonly used in Icelandic law. For example, Grágás, the medieval Icelandic law book, requires that the court empowered to confiscate an outlaw's property be held within a bowshot of the outlaw's home (K 62). A later addition to Grágás defines the bowshot to be two hundred faðmar (about 480m).
From http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_bow.htm
Also, about Vikings. They were great in one to one combat, or in small skirmishes, but not so great in big battles. You could use this(for balance maybe), but you don't have to.
Will you also unify period for armies, at least roughly? It would be fine, as heavier armor and more effective weapons became more common with time.
Thanks for all that info. Especially since Floris adds seaxes and stuff it should be a good weapon for the Nord archers.
As for periods, I'm loosely basing everything on the real world armies of the broad part of the middle ages. Partly because of the limited resources we have (I'm only using the stuff added by Floris), and also partly for balance issues, and that I don't really want to make a whole history game or anything. I just want to watch the various armies of different doctrines fight.
More updates:
I was thinking of manually setting up each lord's army composition so it makes sense and that each lord would have his own preference for what his army would be. For example, "cunning" Nord lords will use small raiding parties of berserkers, as they tend to like doing the small but devastating missions like raiding villages and supply caravans. I haven't figured out all of this yet but I already saw the part of the scripts that allows me to override what kind of troops each lord recruits, and it also doesn't apply to all factions and personality types (Khergits will all be 60% horse archers and 40% lancers just like the real Mongol army).
If you guys have any rough ideas to add to this, feel free to share them.
Also I noticed that since I gave long poleaxes(such a dane and bearded axe) to Aetheling line, they became much more efficient. So it would be fine weapon for one unit(but probably not some light units, as they are quite vulnerable, especially to archers)
Also, about Vikings. They were great in one to one combat, or in small skirmishes, but not so great in big battles. You could use this(for balance maybe), but you don't have to.
Will you also unify period for armies, at least roughly? It would be fine, as heavier armor and more effective weapons became more common with time.
If I'm not wrong, "small skirmishes" in viking raids are usually 50-100 raiders on a village. Unless modded, max battle sizes are 150 anyway. I would consider that a "small skirmish". But fighters in M&B are demi gods anyway...so meh.
Well, raids could have various size(from few men up to thousands). What I am talking about are fights between Vikings. By small skirmishes I mean:"Those a**holes are pissing me of, let's burn down their farm and kill them all".
Are you planning to adjust morale. Is it possible in warband to have different morale stat for different types of troops, or is it just general for all troops, regardless of their type?
I have no intention of changing the system currently in place with Floris. This is to prevent compatibility issues with other mods that deal with that (it's a different section of the module system). The only things I will change are the things that only apply to this mod like new presentation screens and stuff, and the archery tweaks that I think are necessary for the balance of this mod, but that's it.
Wow, I go away for a couple of days and come back to find this has been revived! Glad it's coming along well again, it's really something I'm looking forward to.
Wow lol. Nice formatting. But yeah go ahead and feel free to draw ideas from this stuff. That's the beauty of a modding community.
Bennoman1 said:
Wow, I go away for a couple of days and come back to find this has been revived! Glad it's coming along well again, it's really something I'm looking forward to.
Is there any news/update on the release date for Floris 2.6? I don't want to release this if 2.6 is coming soon, as I want it to be immediately compatible for that since there's a lot of new features and fixes that come with 2.6. Not that this is ready for a public release yet anyway, but it's still good to know the time table.
Sorry. Real life stuff got in the way. I'm picking it back up, and you can read about it here.
Notes: A lot of the features I talked about or thought about during this thread have changed and simplified in the new mod. I have no ETA for when a playable version will be out, because there's a crazy amount of errors and bugs right now lol. But I hope to release it ASAP. I'm devoting a large part of my free time towards this (instead of going out with friends! lol). Thanks for the patience.
I know this is not the native theme of this threat but it comes close to my question, so I give it a try.
Question: Is ist possible to edit the "sword sisters"-trooptree name without accessing the module-system?
The Morgh Editor seems only to recognise the "trp_woman_e(expanded)"-folder.
Thank you for answering in advance and have a nice day!
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