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Dark_Hamlet said:
I'm not saying to literally use a giant rope under the animal paws, but, instead, try something different. Is there no solution?
I have thought about it, tested things, and come to my conclusions. There is no acceptable solution unless I (or possibly somebody else) get a good, detailed, new idea.
Hospes fori said:
Maybe some sort of manacles could be implemented, which allow a person wearing them only to walk and not to run or to use any item.
That's a pretty common suggestion, which I have attempted a few times in the past during development; there are plenty of problems to figure out and annoyances to try work around. It won't necessarily be worked on in the near future.

Remember, this is not the suggestions thread.
 
Oki simple thing, can you edit the horse agent IA to follow the player when we attack with a "rope" weapon. That way you can "tie" the cattle and even without visible tie, this one will follow you at a reasonable distance.
I know that horse IA run when damage, can you turn around this behaviour ?
 
How does crafting reward works, anyway? Couldnt find the answer nor in game neither on forum. It's absolutely not the amount of denars i get for crafting an item, what is it, then?
 
Aldric said:
Oki simple thing, can you edit the horse agent IA to follow the player when we attack with a "rope" weapon. That way you can "tie" the cattle and even without visible tie, this one will follow you at a reasonable distance.
That is an obvious design that was avoided: it would require looping triggers to update the agent move targets constantly, being a potentially large drain on the server (one of the reasons PW is a playable and popular mod is that it has been designed with performance as a main goal). With the herding tools or attacking an animal, the move target operations are only called when a human player performs a deliberate action which is also limited in repetition speed by the game engine: with "ropes" on the other hand, many players would tie an animal then just stand still for long periods of time, or even go AFK, without regard to how it could contribute to lag for other players. It's also a lazy boring way of shifting animals compared to herding (remember that the herding crook alternate attack mode will immediately stop movement until the next herd relocation).

Remember: this is not the suggestions thread!

Lai said:
How does crafting reward works, anyway? Couldnt find the answer nor in game neither on forum. It's absolutely not the amount of denars i get for crafting an item, what is it, then?
It is the variable part of the money you get when crafting: the remainder is a fixed amount refunding you for the default prices of the resources used - as if you sold each resource at a default export station.

See this section of the official scene making guide:
Vornne said:
Target stock counts (value 2 of the stockpile scene prop) for top tier things like plate armor, great swords, long axes, siege crossbows, war bows, and armoured horses should be set at low values such as 1 or 2, then the next tier down of weapons and armor at about 5 - 10, the mid tier stuff about 10 - 20, then clothes and peasant tools something like 20 - 50 (values might need to be adjusted, but the relative structure should remain). This is so players don't have as many problems getting necessary tools and changing their clothing style when starting out, and when stocks are low there will be a steady reward for craftsmen to bring a load of resources to restock; mid tier items should have a medium target count so that some will generally be in stock when a fighter wants equipment, but to equip an army requires engineers to produce more stock; but so troops heavily armed with valuable weapons need to work with factions or serfs and engineers to get their desired equipment made, with a large reward only if the stock is actually being bought and used, not encouraging the crafters to just make great swords for the gold reward. The more the current stock count is below the target count set by the scene maker, the higher the crafting reward: 0 stock always gives the highest possible reward for that item - a combination of 100 for each skill level required to make the weapon and 20% of the item price, the same as the amount lost when selling - and stock counts in between 0 and the target give a proportional amount of the reward; the refunding of the default resource costs remains unaffected by stack count.
Specifically responding to incorrect assumptions: a stockpile target of 0 basically disables crafting rewards for it (since the current stock must always be greater than or equal to the target), only rewarding the base prices of the resources consumed (nothing to do with the crafted item's price). Target values of 1 and above always have the maximum crafting reward at 0 stock scaling back to 0 extra reward when the existing stock count equals the target; the crafting reward calculated by averaging the alternate skill levels necessary rounding down to integers and multiplying that by 100, then adding 20% of the crafted item's price, then multiplied by the difference between the target and current stock, and divided by the target amount.

For example, pw_buy_red_gambeson with 15 in value 2: starts the mission at 15 stock count, a tailor crafts one for only the base refund of 286 (linen cloth default price 220 + leather piece 66), then 5 soldiers buy the armor and the tailor makes another, getting 286 resource refund plus 77 crafting reward (requires 3 tailoring or 2 engineering skill, averaged rounding down is 2, multiplied by 100 for 200, plus 20% of the item price which is 92, then multiplied by 4 (15 - 11) and divided by 15: 292 * 4 / 15 = 77). The maximum return at 0 stock would be 578, a crafting reward of 292.

pw_buy_long_axe_a with 3 in value 2 and a price multiplier in value 1 of 140%, changing the stockpile price from 3120 to 4368: after mission start two footmen buy axes, then an engineer crafts one, the base resource refund amount being 671 (wood pole 221, iron bar 450), and the extra reward being 915 ((skill 5 * 100) + (price 4368 * 20%) * 2 / 3) for a total of 1586; then crafts another getting 1128 (crafting reward reduced to 457 since the count is nearer the target), and then if the engineer keeps crafting (without anyone buying to bring the stock below the target again) he will only get the base refund amount of 671 each time, the same as if he sold the resources to a default export stockpile (but more than if selling to a resource stockpile, since the tax is not subtracted). The maximum total return at 0 stock would be 2044, a crafting reward portion of 1373.

pw_buy_warhorse_steppe with a target of 1 in value 2: base refund of 2597 (saddle 459 + horse armor 2103 + wheat sheaf 35), with the extra reward of 1434 (3 * 100 + 5670 * 20%) only when there is no stock (since the target of 1 has only one value below, 0). Result: 4031.

As you can see, expensive items give more crafting reward as well as the base resources generally being worth more; so even though they mostly take longer to craft, people would be inclined to only produce those types for the money, causing a lack of basic tools and items accessible to lower classes; this is why I suggest generally making the target counts of more expensive powerful items lower, down to about 1 (0 only if you want to disable the crafting reward), so there is incentive to keep them stocked but not to flood the market with hundreds of items at the expense of stocking necessary tools.

The base refund amount might seem high in some cases, but otherwise crafters would have to make a loss compared to selling the resources at export stations. If item prices are dramatically adjusted overall, this might make crafting generally less or more attractive; I have noticed a tendency to increase the price of iron which requires an increase in the price of leather and the price of flax, which requires an increase in the price of food, which might cause a perceived need for an increase in the iron price, ad infinitum, all in the name of keeping the resource gathering processes comparably efficient; but then the crafting system becomes less and less profitable since the resources are worth much more than the final results. I would suggest that it might be better to streamline certain gathering or processing systems by moving them closer rather than increase prices dramatically - but only when done slowly and carefully, one thing at a time, to try avoid causing unstable "feedback loops" of players crying "buff this since you buffed that!", and trying to avoid for secondary effects that might not be desirable, such as flooding the markets with weapons rather than clothes by placing iron mines easily accessible to forges and full price export stations.
 
I have got a bunch of questions.

How long is it possible to eviscerate an animal after it has been killed?
How long does it take an animal to duplicate and what does it depend on?
With what and how can animals be fed and what is the benefit of it?
How long does it take before dropped items disappear?
What is the smallest and what the biggest possible number of grapes per vine? Is it possible to influence the quantity and growing time of grapes?
To what extent are master smiths more effecting in crafting and repairing than engineers respectively engineers more effective than craftsmen?
Do four boards repair the same damage as one wooden block?
 
Hospes fori said:
How long is it possible to eviscerate an animal after it has been killed?
30 seconds, just like looting a player: it is limited by the time the agent stays after death, which is hard coded into the engine.
Hospes fori said:
How long does it take an animal to duplicate and what does it depend on?
Depends on the kind: boar 7 minutes, deer 10, cows 12. It takes that amount of time for the baby animal to grow up, and then between half and double that amount of time for each descendant of the animal to be born - reproduction is not limited by the number of adults in the herd. Animals needing to be paired up to reproduce seemed too difficult for players at the initial release, but after the recurring complaints of wild animals quickly taking up all the spawn slots, I am wondering about making animals only reproduce if there are at least two adults in the herd: this would mean wild spawns would be unlikely to breed without herding (only if the same type of animal happened to be in range when one spawned, to be added to the herd), and domestic herders would have to know how to use the herding crook's alternate attack to stop animals and re-evaluate the herd belonged to based on nearby animals of the same kind (or alternatively import baby animals when an adult is nearby). Not sure how many players enjoy hunting large wild herds...
Hospes fori said:
With what and how can animals be fed and what is the benefit of it?
All animals can be fed with just wheat sheaves, by hitting them with it; only one per animal has any benefit - to give one extra meat chunk when slaughtered. It was just a small afterthought, not an in depth system.
Hospes fori said:
How long does it take before dropped items disappear?
This can be adjusted with server options, as explained in the example configuration: set mission_object_prune_time in the server module.ini and set_round_max_seconds in the server console to the same value (seconds before an item is removed). The Warband default is 3 minutes, but the PW default is 10 minutes. Placed banners are a special case, remaining for 1 hour, or the aforementioned removal time if it is greater.
Hospes fori said:
What is the smallest and what the biggest possible number of grapes per vine? Is it possible to influence the quantity and growing time of grapes?
0 if the vine was hacked apart by someone without the correct tool (one of the knives), and random between 5 and 10 if fully pruned correctly (proportionally less if partially hacked).
Hospes fori said:
To what extent are master smiths more effecting in crafting and repairing than engineers respectively engineers more effective than craftsmen?
For crafting, the higher engineering skill just means more high end weapons and armor are possible to create: refer to the item recipes page linked from the first post compared with troop skill levels. For repairing structures, the value repaired each hit is the skill * 20 + damage; so serfs and mercenaries can repair 20+, craftsmen 40+, engineers 100+, master smiths 140+, and godlike heroes 200+, each hit (as long as enough resources are added).
Hospes fori said:
Do four boards repair the same damage as one wooden block?
Yes: a wooden block is worth 800, and a board 200; sticks are 100, short poles are 200, poles are 400, and branches are worth 500.
 
Vornne said:
Hospes fori said:
Do four boards repair the same damage as one wooden block?
Yes: a wooden block is worth 800, and a board 200; sticks are 100, short poles are 200, poles are 400, and branches are worth 500.

Would it make more sense that poles and boards, which took time to refine, would have higher values than raw material like a wooden block ?
P.S.: I know... this is not the suggestion post :smile:
 
Loppen said:
Would it make more sense that poles and boards, which took time to refine, would have higher values than raw material like a wooden block ?
I think it was based on that branch items have all the smaller branches taken off and get whittled down to an even shape, losing some of the wood which might be useful for repairs, while a solid compact trunk section would have less wastage. Years since I put those values in.
 
Thank you very much for explaining everything so detailed, Vornne.

Vornne said:
wild animals quickly taking up all the spawn slots
This problem is the reason why I asked. Disabling the reproduction of single animals would certainly help. Often an animal gets lost and as a result a huge herd spawns at rather inaccessible places. Once I have encountered such a herd somewhere in the sewers of New Zendar on the RCC server in a cavern nobody could enter. Would it make sense to allow animals only to duplicate, if there are not more than a certain number of animals within a certain reach? This way every faction is limited to, for instance, ten animals within their castle, lest no faction can hoard all animals on the map.

Vornne said:
one of the knives
Do old kitchen knives and butchering knives come within these or just the actually “knife” called knife?

I assumed that engineers repair faster than craftsmen but I did not know if master smiths repair faster than engineers as well. Furthermore I was not sure if they require different amounts of material for the same repairs and if four boards would be more effective than a single wooden block, since they are already processed.
 
Hospes fori said:
Would it make sense to allow animals only to duplicate, if there are not more than a certain number of animals within a certain reach?
Animals are sorted into herds mainly so regularly repeating distance checks are not needed: the herd leader does the crude path finding, and the other animals just move to random locations nearby. I would prefer to add checks based on numbers in that animal's herd, rather than doing more distance measurements.
Hospes fori said:
This way every faction is limited to, for instance, ten animals within their castle, lest no faction can hoard all animals on the map.
The animal herd system is designed to be more competitive than some other resource processes, so factions capturing or protecting animals is intended behaviour. Note that server hosts can raise the herd animal maximum setting above the default of 20, if they have decent server hardware; it is recommended to test higher values until a noticeable performance decrease is experienced.
Hospes fori said:
Do old kitchen knives and butchering knives come within these or just the actually “knife” called knife?
Yes, anything with "knife" in the name will work, and also the butchering cleaver (old knife will be slower, though).
 
Vornne said:
I would prefer to add checks based on numbers in that animal's herd, rather than doing more distance measurements.
Initially I had the idea of limiting the number of animals within a herd to prevent overgrowth as well, but it would only solve the problem for wild herds. Factions still can hoard animals by simply dividing the herds. And I do not understand why livestock farming should be competitive in doing so.

Hospes fori said:
The animal herd system is designed to be more competitive than some other resource processes, so factions capturing or protecting animals is intended behaviour.
Basically livestock farming should be more challenging than many other activites, but it must not become too difficult. It makes sense when factions have to fight for farmland, but it is unrealistic when a faction is not able to breed its own livestock, just because another faction occupies all the "animal slots". If livestock farming is supposed to be more competitive than other branches of economy, people should fight for pastures and not artificial "animal slots". Pastures would also force people to actually herd their animals when leading them to the pastures instead of simply locking them up in their castles. Yet, beyond doubt a pasture system would be much too complex.
It is nearly impossible to steal cattle from an enemy castle. The easier way would be to conquer the castle first, which is rather exaggerated, since it should be possible to steal cattle from an enemy without the need of destroying him. The other possibility is to try to just kill all enemy animals, which is equally difficult, if they are kept deep inside a castle. Moreover the whole thing might become a weird breeding battle in the end.
Thus we need a mechanism that limits the number of animals within single castles or areas, so that it is possible to gain access to animals respectively meat and more important leather without overstated difficulties. Operating with distance was just a thought how this could be achieved. If there are simpler solutions, all the better.
 
Since the economic system of Persistent World is quite elaborate, I believe a complete overview of it could be very useful, especially for new players. Some might find it unnecessarily tedious to read the detailed texts available, if he just wants a quick insight or reminder. For this purpose a chart of all the production processes seems to be suitable. Unfortunately I am no expert for graphical design, so my graphic should be considered merely as sketch. It would be great if a more skilled person than me could turn this into a decent sight.

ZW43T.png
The chart is supposed to be used in addition to Loppen’s item recipes. Basically it briefly shows how to produce all the needed materials for crafting any item.

fIP6Z.png
It might be a good idea to exchange all the components with Loppen’s icons and additional similar ones. Additionally the numbers should be worked in more elegantly. By all means I appreciate every constructive criticism and help in general.
 
That is really nice, if I can make a suggestion consider adding the item name bellow the image to avoid any confusion, example:

*image of wheat
      Wheat
 
Hospes fori said:
Thus we need a mechanism that limits the number of animals within single castles or areas, so that it is possible to gain access to animals respectively meat and more important leather without overstated difficulties.
It might not be too complicated or expensive to have some sort of check on how far the animal herd leader has moved recently (just saving the values already calculated), and if not close to the terrain level, maybe having the animal die after a certain amount of time without enough movement; that should encourage people to try protect herds in more realistic areas. I wondered about having animals die of old age when first implementing the systems, but thought it seemed too unpredictable from the player's point of view; not sure about a good way to indicate that an animal is soon going to die without intervention - maybe just make the bawl / roar sound that currently happens when they are killed?
Hospes fori said:
Since the economic system of Persistent World is quite elaborate, I believe a complete overview of it could be very useful, especially for new players.
Nice idea; but note that things like grinding flour and baking bread or meat pies result in more items (5 instead of 4) with more than a certain amount of labouring skill (as a serf), and brewing beer (2 wheat sheaves instead of 3) or wine (3 must barrels instead of 4) requires less resources with higher skill.
 
Hospes fori said:
Since the economic system of Persistent World is quite elaborate, I believe a complete overview of it could be very useful, especially for new players. Some might find it unnecessarily tedious to read the detailed texts available, if he just wants a quick insight or reminder. For this purpose a chart of all the production processes seems to be suitable. Unfortunately I am no expert for graphical design, so my graphic should be considered merely as sketch. It would be great if a more skilled person than me could turn this into a decent sight.

14cyb.png
The chart is supposed to be used in addition to Loppen’s item recipes. Basically it briefly shows how to produce all the needed materials for crafting any item.

fIP6Z.png
It might be a good idea to exchange all the components with Loppen’s icons and additional similar ones. Additionally the numbers should be worked in more elegantly. By all means I appreciate every constructive criticism and help in general.
Would be extremely useful; it looks a bit like the Age of Empires production tree, from that special moment years and years ago when I opened the Age of Empires II case.
 
Is there a wiki for PW mod? That's a nice chart but where will it go and still be easily accessible?
 
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