In-Game Heraldry Support

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Syke - those ideas deserve their own thread - see if you can find an existing discussion of rank/pay/prestige or some such, or else start a new topic.  Its a good concept.
 
Hi,

This is really a very nice and well laid down suggestion, but I am afraid it requires quite a bit of work, and also it would probably work a lot better in a purely strategy game. However, Ozgur has designed some very nice looking (albeit static) coats of arms and we'll put those to use in the next version. And if you really want to design your own heraldry you'll be able to use an image editing program like GIMP and customize one of the supplied banners to your liking. Of course it's not the same thing as doing this inside the game but at least it will be possible. :smile:
 
Aww, fuddle!

Well, many thanks for taking the time to give an reply and your forthrightness. :smile:

Would you mind, at the least, allowing me the chance to review these coats?  I could offer tips and suggestions to keep them more historically accurate, more recognizable at a distance (which I believe is especially important on a computer screen), and make sure you're not breaking any heraldic faux pas (a flaming hand maintaining a rose proper kind of thing).

I'd keep them confidential, and I'd be willing to sign an NDA, if you required.
 
Hmmm... maybe armagan could hook up with Daegoth... I heard they knew each other pretty well... That could really work for M&B!
 
Syke said:
A knight may have his honor, but he also has his price.

Slightly OT:

This has historical precedent. The institution of scutage, or cash payment in lieu of actual military service, arose in England as a result of English knights hiring themselves out to foreign sovereigns. This alleviated the need for the knight to provide the required 40 days a year of service to the knight's liege, and allowed him to engage in longer campaigns abroad, which (if successful) increased the knight's prestige and indirectly his lord's.

And really, the entire feudal system can be thought of as a mercenary system, except payment was in land instead of coin.
 
Sorry for bringing up an old topic, but i think it is something that would benefit the game. The idea originally posted would add a lot more uniqness to your character, as well as making it feel more 'yours'.
 
Eogan said:
Armagan, if you read this, it would be REALLY nice to have some support of personal heraldry in-game.  Specifically, I need the ability to change and layer textures on objects in the game.  Additionally beneficial would be the ability to overwrite colourings so that each picture could be in four colours (black outline, colour1, colour2, and transparent) and the colours could be assigned within the game.

I started working on a mod to use a dialogue-based system to allow players to create their own personal coat-of-arms in the game, where selecting your own coat would swap certain in-game items so that your arms would appear on your units and on special shields and armour for the player and heroes, which you could get from the herald.

Yeah, not gonna happen.

At least not how I'd like.  I could offer them a choice of certain pre-made devices, but customizable coats-of-arms are simply unfeasable if you have to create each and every possibility first.  I compiled a list of common fields and charges that I'd like to make available, and before I was even finished, I decided to count how many individual textures I would need for all the possible emblazons.  Currently, this mod will require 43 554 individual textures, and I hadn't even started to consider different positions for animals or blazons more complex than "Field colour(s), a charge colour"!  If I could layer all the individual charges in-game, I'd need maybe a hundred or two seperate images, but even the simplest of heraldic options requires tens of thousands of images if you want to provide for all possibilities.

Armagan, I'd be more than happy to help you work out a simple system to allow an accurate and in-depth heraldry creation procedure.  Heraldry is pretty specific and, if you know how to break it down, could be easily translated into a computer program.  It would certainly be as revolutionary to find in a computer game as your combat control system was. :smile:

I've been thinking alot about this as well recently. Is there anyway to make it like Realms of Mayhem's banner generator where you can change the colors? I think it would be a lot easier to have a color changing tool than to make a JILLION different textures.

EDIT: Quote trimmed for your convenience.
 
trim it a little?
"{Playername} you have entered the service of King Ragnar!  As his vassal, you may bear only the Red Saltire on your shield and surcoat.  Should you ever achieve the Glory of Knighthood, the right to add another device to this field..."

that means, you could have a red saltire on any background (within the rules of heraldry, this leaves only a few options) initially, and, when you make knight, you can add a charge to each field, for example.
 
Syke said:
...elevated to a status deserving of symbology...

To quote Willem Dafoe, "I believe the word you were looking for was symbolism."

Boondock Saints quotes aside, a system to make heraldry could be quite easy if you don't try to make every single texture.  Instead, you make a certain number of fields (one for each field type) each more or less blank with say two  color regions that for this instance will be labeled color x and color y.  Instead of trying to make every color combination, just allow the player to insert the color code into a text box for each color choice.  So, the same texture could support a plethora of designs.  Also, in an attempt to get past making the ordinaires, beasts and charges built in, have say 2-3 layers including the base field.  This way, things wont get too complicated.  Each charge and beast would also have say 2 color choices (inside and border or however eogan feels would be most historically correct). 

This sort of thing has been used in java by companies such as STX, Warrior, Nike, and many others to quickly do customizable color schemes on equipment.  Yes, I know this game isnt java, but there should be some sort of way to make this sort of thing possible in game.

For those of yous thinking "ok, thats great, but how is this sort of junk going to get saved and sorted out," the heraldry could be saved in your export file much like the face key is.  So, you have this long garbled list of letters and numbers which roughly resembles a leet speak mnemonic (b215x110yd015x256yg130 for example) in which each position and letter/number has an assignment.  Now, the "code" i supplied above is just something I threw out there for simplicity sake, but it could be read as "field=b with color x=215 and y=110, ordinairy=d with color x=015 and y=256, charge=g with color x =130."  Now, I'm no programmer (nor do I play one on tv), but this sort of thing was fairly easy to do using java back when I was in high school.  There are a lot of other ways this sort of thing could be build, but this is jsut an example.

A thought just occurred to me that you might be able to use the same system used for the face construction as this.  Instead, assign colors, charges, fields and such spots along the continuums (sliders).  Im not sure how well this would work with the fields and such, but it should work decently with colors.  Anyway, just a thought.

No matter how it's done, I think some sort of custom heraldry should be possible within the game so that it isn't just those of us with photoshop and such who get to have the spinky heraldry.
 
THIS IS A VERY LONG POST! Sorry ...

I had no idea how much detail to go into (or not). Admins, feel free to cut out the unnecessary. Or get me to do it!

Eogan said:
Armagan, if you read this, it would be REALLY nice to have some support of personal heraldry in-game.  Specifically, I need the ability to change and layer textures on objects in the game.  Additionally beneficial would be the ability to overwrite colourings so that each picture could be in four colours (black outline, colour1, colour2, and transparent) and the colours could be assigned within the game.

I started working on a mod to use a dialogue-based system to allow players to create their own personal coat-of-arms in the game, where selecting your own coat would swap certain in-game items so that your arms would appear on your units and on special shields and armour for the player and heroes, which you could get from the herald.

Yeah, not gonna happen.

At least not how I'd like.  I could offer them a choice of certain pre-made devices, but customizable coats-of-arms are simply unfeasable if you have to create each and every possibility first.  I compiled a list of common fields and charges that I'd like to make available, and before I was even finished, I decided to count how many individual textures I would need for all the possible emblazons.  Currently, this mod will require 43 554 individual textures, and I hadn't even started to consider different positions for animals or blazons more complex than "Field colour(s), a charge colour"!  If I could layer all the individual charges in-game, I'd need maybe a hundred or two seperate images, but even the simplest of heraldic options requires tens of thousands of images if you want to provide for all possibilities.

Armagan, I'd be more than happy to help you work out a simple system to allow an accurate and in-depth heraldry creation procedure.  Heraldry is pretty specific and, if you know how to break it down, could be easily translated into a computer program.  It would certainly be as revolutionary to find in a computer game as your combat control system was. :smile:

Firstly, great game. Far too addictive, original in terms of horses and combat, and the best combination of strategy and RPG I've played. Not that I've played many.

Back to the topic. Guess what? I'd like this too! I've no idea whether this is the best place to add my tuppence, if not I'm sure I'll be directed to the best place :wink: . Please don't talk to me about textures or other complicated things, otherwise my head will explode. And that's a bad thing.

EOGAN KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT, and is much better in terms of coding, but he's got me thinking.

Firstly, I guess there would be two ways of dealing with this: a customised window, or dialogue. The window would contain option boxes with various charges with a picture section to give visual feed back and colour selection seperate.

However, the idea that appeals most to me is a series of questions and answers. You only get to see the Coat of Arms in picture form later.

So, to details. Firstly, I'm not going to go into whether new armours should be designed to accomodate these Arms. I would only say that while this may be impractical, there may be two solutions that are easier to implement. The first is simply that the current system of use of heraldry is used (e.g. if you're wearing Plate Mail, your Arms won't appear on it, but if you're wearing Heraldic Mail, it will). The second, and perhaps more difficult, I will get to later.

I think a series of questions would work. But first, I think I may need to explain a little about Heraldry, because Eogan's example is the only time I've seen technical terms used (not that I've done much searching). Firstly, a Coat of Arms is not the PICTURE, it's the DESCRIPTION, which is known as Blazon. The questions, and multiple choice responses, would decide the Blazon, and thus the picture would be created. Heraldry is different from country to country, and by redefining the Blazon, there can be complete flexiblility about colours, pictures etc. I will give a short definition of technical terms first, but I'll use the terms in the questions. I'm not sure if this is wise, perhaps the definitions would be better? Or in brackets? I don't know, but I'm rambling so I'll start with the definitions:

Arms - A design to be painted on objects, used to identify the owner. As such, it is unique. A full set of Arms contains a number of sections. For those who know too much, here I use Arms to mean the Shield section of a full set. Blazon - a sentence used to describe an individual's Arms. Tincture - one of seven (debatable) words in Blazon, each describing a colour. Gules, for example, means Red. Metal - two of these Tinctures represent metals. They are Argent (White/Silver) and Or (Yellow/Gold). A rule of Blazon is that a Metal may never be placed on a Metal, nor a Colour on a Colour. So, for example, an Or Lion on an Argent background would be bad blazon. This rule is sometimes ignored. It may be ignored altogether in Calridia for all I know. Field - the Field is the background of the Arms. Ordinaire - the way in which the Field is divided into sections. Charge - one or more pictures superimposed upon the Field.

A Blazon is put together in the following way: the field colour, followed by the Ordinaire (if applicable) & colour, followed by the Charge(s) (if applicable) & colour.

The following questions allow for a single Ordinaire and a single Charge. Personally, I think that's more than enough for personalisation.

---------------------

So, you want me to write you a Coat of Arms, eh? well, let me ask you some questions then. First question, what colour do you want the Field to be?

a) Argent (White/Silver)
b) Or (Yellow/Gold)
c) Gules (Red)
d) Vert (Green)
e) Azure (Blue)
f) Sable (Black)

(Field_Colour)

Do you want to divide the Field up, add a basic pattern or shape, or neither?

a) I want to divide the Field up (Goes to question 1).
b) I want to divide the shield up by adding a shape (Goes to question 2).
c) I want to add a repeating pattern (Goes to question 3).
d) I don't want to divide the shield up (Goes to below this tricky section).

1) How do you want to divide the Field?
2) Which shape do you want to add?
3) Which pattern do you want?

a) Party per Fess/a Fess/Fessly (Horizontally)
b) Party per Bar/a Bar/Barry (Vertically)
c) Party per Bend/a Bend/Bendy (Diagonally, top left to bottom right)
d) Party per Bend Sinister/a Bend Sinister/Bendy Sinister (Diagonally, top right to bottom left)
e) Quarterly/a Cross/Checky (both Horizontally and Vertically)
f) Party per Saltire/a Saltire/Lozengy (Both diagonals)

(Ordinaire)

e.g. with answer b), if the question was question 1, a horizontal division would be added. If the question was question 2, a single thick horizontal stripe would be added. If the question was question 3, the Field would be striped in two colours.

1) What colour do you want the other half to be?
2) What colour do you want the shape to be?
3) What do you want the other colour to be?

(Ordinaire_Colour)

(same answers as to the first question, remembering the rule of colour in blazon, if necessary)

Do you want to add a Charge?

a) Yes
b) No

Which Charge do you want to add?

a) An Eagle
b) A Crescent
c) A Lion
d) A Bear
e) An Axe

(Charge)

What colour do you want your charge?

(same answers as to the first question, remembering the rule of colour in blazon, if necessary. There is one extra answer:smile:
g) Proper (original colour)

(Charge_Colour)

Now, let me write your Blazon for you ...

(The blazon is then written, in the format below. The first format is if questions 1 or 3 are asked, the second is used if question 2 is asked.)

Ordinaire, Field_Colour and Ordinaire_Colour. Over all, Charge Charge_Colour

Field_Colour, Ordinaire Ordinaire_Colour. Over all, Charge Charge_Colour

Examples:

King Graveth's Blazon: Or, a Bear Sable (The field is actually Sanguine, but who's quibbling?)

St. George's Blazon: Argent, a Cross Gules

St. George's Arms with a Brown Bear: Argent, a Cross Gules. Over all, a Bear Proper.

Remember I said I'd suggest a second practical way to get Arms on clothing/shields? well the other way is this: after a dialogue of this nature, a trade screen comes up. The heralds side of the screen is blank, and you drag whatever you want to carry this design into the Herald's section. After clicking on OK, whatever is in the Herald's section is 'painted' with this design and given back to you.

OK, long post. I've no idea what the admins are gonna make of this. Be kind, please!

Moose

 
Thought I would mention pyblazon (http://web.meson.org/pyBlazon/), a python program which can convert a blazon (text) to an image (png or SVG).  I'm no coder, but I would imagine that something like this might be extremely useful in terms of achieving ingame heraldry customization.  There are very few charges built in, but it has the ability to use any image located on the internet as a charge.

At the very least it is cool for killing some time while learning a little about blazonry, as well as just for messing around (http://web.meson.org/blazonserver/index.php?blazon=Per+bend+sinister+or+and+Per+bend+sable+and+or&format=png), fear Sir Pacman. :smile:
 
moose: Good post.

the only flaw with the dialogue option as I see it, is that a lot of people would need to visit the bookseller first and buy the Encyclopaedia of Heraldry!  I know a bit, but I still found myself reading some bits two or three times to get the picture in my head.

On the other hand, I wouldn't dream of having King Ragnar's Marshall ask me "Wot colour would you like your shield, mate?"

As you said, there still remains the question of how it is translated from player input to an actual armour/texture in the game.

Somewhere back in the early posts, Eogan (or blackthorn?) calculated how many thousands of textures would be needed for all the variations without charges.  That many textures = massive loading times in a game.

Sorry, I don't have any ideas there that haven't been expressed already...
 
But what if the game just created the texture when it made the banner? as in, it has a bunch of files with your bear picture and the different colours and such, and when you create your banner it makes it as a texture instead of choosing from a gazillion predefined ones
 
that would work with a system of layering armour / layering textures.  Which would have other advantages too.

I think the best method would be a la face generation, with colour sliders for each component - bearing in mind that there were only 7 recognised colours for the heralds.

First up a screen with the blank shield, and you adjust the colour slider until you have the desired tone.
Then you scroll through the options for dividing the fields. (just the shape, not the colour yet)
then another slider to colour the divider -
and finally another slider for the additional fields each in turn.

going at it this way, you would have to have either no beasts, or only a pre-set selection.  I like the idea that the selection of beasts is limited to those of your liege-lord.  For example, Harlaus' bear:

If Harlaus grants you the right to bear arms, he will specify that "you may carry his device of the bear, with such field or fields as you may wish."
So you have to have a bear, but any colour and background




 
I do not like that exactly, I think that if you serve under someone with a bear charge, the last thing he wants is you, some lowlife, having a similar banner. I think it is better to give a preset of options from the faction list (for instance, no horses for Rhodoks, no axes for khergits, no crossbows for vaegirs, the works)

The image will be a set of layers, and then compressed into one texture that is your banner. Other lords have preset banners (like they do now) so they will not generate processing time as well. It may be best to change some lord's banner if the player selects the same one (better than nay saying, the player might be pissed, an AI lord will not care)

(not to mention the right to bear arms, and adding a bear as a charge, it gets confusing and makes me think of warm fuzzy mittens :lol:)

One problem will be the Khergit, they have a different heraldry and should have...
 
I'd like to know what the possibilities would be of creating a single texture in-game. Is it possible to create a new texture file and load it in-game using a script? Another possibility would be to be able to create a coat of arms from the launch screen, so that the new texture would be created and saved before the game (and textures) were loaded. This would basically mean writing another program just to handle this aspect. I reckon it'd be worth it though!  :wink:

So far as the mechanics are concerned, I really like PyBlazon. It works really well and deals with some pretty complicated stuff - all that would be needed would be to add some animal/plant/human charges. So far as colour is concerned, I'm really not sure what use sliders would be for colours ... surely option boxes or a colour picker would be better?

Sorry, Zilberfrid, I'm afraid you're wrong about how devices were passed on. If you've been granted the right to bear arms, it's by someone who wants you on their side, someone who wants you associated with them. Also, heraldry was used to identify people on the battlefield. By altering someone else's device, both friends and foes would know your master fairly quickly - and possibly which side you were on.

 
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