Butted mail riveted mail AAAAAARGH

[Baguette Eater]

So those 2 kinds of mail, which is which, some people claim that butted mail is the modern, bad, version and that riveted is what they used back then.

Is it true?

Also, I've done a few test with my mail gauntlets, they're butted and resist quite well the sword blows (granted I am not in great physical shapre, but still) what gives.

 

[Soil]

So those 2 kinds of mail, which is which, some people claim that butted mail is the modern, bad, version and that riveted is what they used back then.

Is it true?

Yes.

 

[Mauritius zu Mainz]

depends on the wire being thick enough (1,6mm) and being hardened. marius ozog from poland attaches aventails with such rings on his helmets and they don´t bend open

 

[JHaukewood]

Strength aside, riveted mail is the historically accurate one. Any museum mail you see is going to be riveted.

 

[Devercia]

When it comes to piercing, butted maille is absolutely pathetic. I shot some with a 25# bow. It made a hole 3 inches in diameter, and the maille was missing 5 rings. It might as well be sexually attracted to fire.

 

[Rob83]

Strength aside, riveted mail is the historically accurate one. Any museum mail you see is going to be riveted.

+1 

 

[Baguette Eater]

Noted

[me=Bobthehero]sights at his butted gauntlets[/me]

 

[Mauritius zu Mainz]

yes of course. riveted is the authentic one. that´s y i use a riveted aventail

 

[LordOfShadows]

Historically the only people to use butted maille were the far eastern countries (Japan, China, Korea etc.).

To be absolutely accurate, the maille should be wedge riveted - the rivets were small triangles.

 

[Roach XI the Magnificent]

Butted mail was originally conceived to save on costs for reenactment and movies, IIRC.

 

[Farmind]

Historical European mail armor was usually made with riveted links, but they could also use solid punched links. The punched links are ring-washers cut from sheet metal using a hole punch (ring-blade chisel), and almost half of the links of a mail armor can be solid links.

Older Japanese mail armor was made using butted links, punched links and twisted links (similar to "split rings" used in key-chains), and links were woven in square pattern or hexagonal "flower" pattern. Later on, overseas traders introduced the stronger riveted mail and 4-in-1 flat weave pattern to Japan, and Japanese armorers began to produce this kind of "southern barbarian chain".

 

[Mauritius zu Mainz]

@LordOfShadows: allright. so my helmet isn´t 100% accurate (rivets aren´t triangular) but i think i can live with it 

 

[Baguette Eater]

No you can't, triangular riveted mail now, or face the block.

 

[Austupaio]

That I'd like to see. Mail in any shape other than circle would be interesting, really. Pentagon?

 

[Rob83]

Noted

[me=Bobthehero]sights at his butted gauntlets[/me]

in most reenactment situation you're gonna find butted mail for mere economical reasons... I have it too, but I'm going to upgrade soon

consider you need just 130-150 € for a full hauberk and a camail made of butted 10 x 1,5 mm rings

if you're going for the riveted version you go up to 400-450 € (EU made) or 300 (India made)

consider also that with a couple of pliers and *some* time you can add or remove rings to form the butted hauberk at your fittings... with the riveted is another matter

 

[LordOfShadows]

@LordOfShadows: allright. so my helmet isn´t 100% accurate (rivets aren´t triangular) but i think i can live with it 

It's fairly hard to find. I think I'll give you a pass just this once....

 

[Mauritius zu Mainz]

kayserstuhl.de offers a few mailproducts with flat rings & triangular rivets (flachring keilniete), but its rather expensive

 

[Rob83]

check also this website... very good stuff (at least it seems to me) but not that cheap

http://www.capapie.co.uk/

 

[samuraiantiqueworld]

Older Japanese mail armor was made using butted links, punched links and twisted links (similar to "split rings" used in key-chains), and links were woven in square pattern or hexagonal "flower" pattern. Later on, overseas traders introduced the stronger riveted mail and 4-in-1 flat weave pattern to Japan, and Japanese armorers began to produce this kind of "southern barbarian chain".

Actually the Japanese used butted and/or twisted links in their version of mail (kusari) for hundreds of years, right up to the end of the samurai era (1860s). They did develop riveted mail at some point and they did add the European 4 in 1 weave to the patterns already being used.  The use of riveted links and the European 4 in 1 pattern probably came sometime after the Portuguese first landed in Japan (1543), unfortunately there is not much research on the subject.  As for the use of butted mail, the Japanese used more varieties of mail than any other culture I know of, and yet its very hard to find actual examples of many of the most complicated patterns. Even the twisted link Japanese mail  incorporated butted links in its design.  Here are a few images of different types of kusari. 

The only two images of riveted kusari that I know of in the world.

6 in 1 kusari, six twisted links with a butted central link, very dense mail, the only images in the world that I know of.

Double butted 12 in 2 kusari, the only images in the world that I know of.

Samurai wore armour made entirely of butted links.

 

[Roach XI the Magnificent]

19th century Samurai did. For all practical intents and purposes that doesn't count beyond reenactment. Sengoku era Samurai relied on various types of lamellar and plate armor.