Yeah, hurry up, DuuUUuDE! Haha!Turanien said:
Balt reasearch
- Thread starter DrTomas
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Knight at Arms
i'm always amazed by the craftsmanship of those weapons and armour!
Hey!
Dear DrTomas, thank you very much for interesting information
On Lithuanian language:
"Kunigaikstis"=konungr/king/duke/hofdingi/knyaz;
"Karys didziunas"=warrior of king/of hofdingi/of knyaz; (as Anlgo-Saxon huscarls)
"Karys"=as well-armed Warrior (boendir/bonds)
"Eilinis karys"=ceorl/karl/peasant/commoner/militiaman
On Lithuanian language:
"Kunigaikstis"=konungr/king/duke/hofdingi/knyaz;
"Karys didziunas"=warrior of king/of hofdingi/of knyaz; (as Anlgo-Saxon huscarls)
"Karys"=as well-armed Warrior (boendir/bonds)
"Eilinis karys"=ceorl/karl/peasant/commoner/militiaman
Glad you liked it!
Actualy, if it were me I'd go more Curonian style (as the tribe was most active in piracy and raiding at this time and would fit the vikingr theme) for Balts, Latvian language would fit more.
But for Lithuanian:
Kunigaikštis is an modern form for Duke. Kunigas would be more archaic and more fiting the period.
Eilinis karys = private(as in rank in the modern military) warrior. Laukininkas(freeman, farmer, which most of balt population would be), Kaimynas(an household slave, early serf) would fit much more. IMHO
I also advise not to rely on the Bumbliauskas book intepretation too much. His intepretation are rather funny. I don't want to go on to the details, but his version were quite criticized. Only the weapons look fine. Clothes are retarted and I bet the artist drew them based on the clothes our local neo-pagans likes to wear(which are not historical even looking from far).
Actualy, if it were me I'd go more Curonian style (as the tribe was most active in piracy and raiding at this time and would fit the vikingr theme) for Balts, Latvian language would fit more.
But for Lithuanian:
Kunigaikštis is an modern form for Duke. Kunigas would be more archaic and more fiting the period.
Eilinis karys = private(as in rank in the modern military) warrior. Laukininkas(freeman, farmer, which most of balt population would be), Kaimynas(an household slave, early serf) would fit much more. IMHO
I also advise not to rely on the Bumbliauskas book intepretation too much. His intepretation are rather funny. I don't want to go on to the details, but his version were quite criticized. Only the weapons look fine. Clothes are retarted and I bet the artist drew them based on the clothes our local neo-pagans likes to wear(which are not historical even looking from far).
Dear DrTomas, I undestood you; thank you very much!DrTomas said:
Dear DrTomas, tell me, please, but what names do you recommend to give units of Balts in Latvian language?
Maybe better to give two names on Latvian, and two names on Lithuanian, that show thus in the game and the Latvian tribes and Lithuanian tribes? Scandinavians are worried all the Baltic Sea coast (often of saga without specifying just say "go hike in the Eastern countries", and this may mean, for example, including on the Lithuanian coastal tribes, for example Samogitians)
For example,
"Kunigas"=konungr/king/duke/hofdingi/knyaz (on Latvian)
"Karys didziunas"=warrior of king/of hofdingi/of knyaz (as Anlgo-Saxon huscarls) (on Lithuanian)
......(? your version of the Latvian)=as well-armed warrior (as Rus "druzhinnik") (on Latvian)
? maybe "Eilinis karys"=private warrior/militiaman (on Lithuanian)
Maybe better to give two names on Latvian, and two names on Lithuanian, that show thus in the game and the Latvian tribes and Lithuanian tribes? Scandinavians are worried all the Baltic Sea coast (often of saga without specifying just say "go hike in the Eastern countries", and this may mean, for example, including on the Lithuanian coastal tribes, for example Samogitians)
For example,
"Kunigas"=konungr/king/duke/hofdingi/knyaz (on Latvian)
"Karys didziunas"=warrior of king/of hofdingi/of knyaz (as Anlgo-Saxon huscarls) (on Lithuanian)
......(? your version of the Latvian)=as well-armed warrior (as Rus "druzhinnik") (on Latvian)
? maybe "Eilinis karys"=private warrior/militiaman (on Lithuanian)
Dragomir
Knight
I would really like to see the Balts. Time frames for mod reach late 12th century (Norman armoury), so there would be nothing wrong with adding the proto-pavise shield. They would be a superior infantry with many spears and throwing weapons. If I'm wrong someone correct me, but Lithuania is, and was mostly of woods and swamps. Hard terrain for cavalry, the leader could ride a horse though. Give them neat battle long knives and some sweet axes and we have a new, original faction.
Moeckerkalfie
Ah we are actually trying to center things more around 1000 AD, so we better don't add any 12th century stuff at all. For the norman stuff you are right, actually we tried cutting back on the futuristic stuff by making it extremely expensive for now, until we manage to create proper replacements.
For now we are more than busy with the Goidil faction alone though, and although I would like to see even factions more we can barely hope to work on multiple additional factions at once, with only two people...
For now we are more than busy with the Goidil faction alone though, and although I would like to see even factions more we can barely hope to work on multiple additional factions at once, with only two people...
Well all of the Balt stuff I posted fit the X-XIIc. as I was instructed to do so.
Yes however horses was quite important and had a special place in Baltic society. Especially from ~VIII century when whole graveyards for horses started to appear. When on offense(and on land) most of the baltic forces would be mounted, but majority would dismount before battle. Including the leading Duke, at-least until XIV century(or late XIIIc. at best). The few remaining mounted units would be there for skirmishing and chase down fleeing enemy troops. But other then that, the mounted troops would more likely flee from the field then charge the enemy mounted.Dragomir said:
Swords you posted are from many different Times.
Schild with wooden bass? Very ridiculously.
"Helmet, a random find" cann you schow not the new one, same finds of them?
Helmet from Lidsa musieum: X-XIIcentury - this is Russ Helmet.
Clothes are random made and the braid (bands) ther don't seems to be realystik.
Schild with wooden bass? Very ridiculously.
"Helmet, a random find" cann you schow not the new one, same finds of them?
Helmet from Lidsa musieum: X-XIIcentury - this is Russ Helmet.
Clothes are random made and the braid (bands) ther don't seems to be realystik.
As stated I provided a typology table for all the swords found in the Baltic tribes territory from IX-XIIIc. However it was more of a reference, becouse the typology used is not standart - but a modified of J.Peterson typology. I did follow up with the most common or unique to the Balts type of the swords that I think should be used in the mod. All of there dating match the specified window that I had to provide the reaserch for.Helge said:
Yet theres an archealogical find of atleast one intact speciment - in Tira peat bog in Kurzeme, Latvia. Most of the metal shield bosses become relatively rare from Balt burrials from around ~Xc. Sometimes there's shield find, but no shield bosses with it - so it's quite possible that a wooden one would be used. But becouse most of the shields are very fragmanted and in quite poor state, it's hard to say for certain. It should not be that suprising as most iron were needed to be imported and an wooden bass would be a cheaper alternative.Helge said:
The find from Latvia: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/tirskom.html
Here you go:Helge said:
True - this is so called "Chernigov" type helmet. This type was relatively common thourgh out Eastern Europe in X-XIIc(some of them date to XIIIc.). Theres atleast a few two more found outside in old Prussian territories and as far as I know 4 in Poland and atleast one in Hungary. Not sure how many of them in Ruthenian territories. The one in Lidsa museum is whitout a certain localisation and most likely be either Baltic or Polish origin. As supposedly it was bought in XIXc. somewere in Prussia or Poland, where it was diged out.Helge said:
So while it's not a Balt-only helmet type(and it's certanly not rus-only), it was also used by the Balts.
Random made - is an interesting way to describe it. There are no real finds of clothes from the period(only scraps witch is hard to make a complete reconstruction), not only the Baltics but most of Europe. So more or less standart things should apply - leg wrappings, trousers and a tunic. I'm not realy sure where some specific things come(like the missing triangles in the side of the tunics) - but it's not some reenector made up mumbo jumbo, as you can find it even in museums in both Latvia and Lithuania. But if I have to guess it's either based on some later sources or perhaps some graves have enough material to prove this kind of "style".Helge said:
Well as far as braids goes - heres some reconstructions from graves, feel free to compare to those in reenectments I gave:
Sėlonian:
from - Lietuvos nacionalinis muziejus, Latvijas Nacionālais Vēstures muzejs - "Sėliai", 2007
Samagotian:
from - Vitas Valatka - "Žemaičių žemės tyrinejimai", 2004
Interesting note, that atleast the second one type was used in Lithuanian ethnic art up to these days.
