1860s - Historical Topic
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Geredis
Squire
All well and good stuff, Baskonia, however, from the looks of it, the Cuban stuff is well beyond the timeframe of the mod; it's kind of a hodgepodge of 1860s stuff (really, '58-72 I suppose), not the entire tail end of the 19th Century - so the Spanish uniforms are anachronistic (the Mausers they're using certainly are, and the Americans are using those blasted Danish guns (name of which I've forgotten) in the illustrations. And of the generals in your image, really, only Wheeler is of any use, but he's a good 30 years older than what the mod wants/needs.
Also, Rad; looking around - I can easily find the uniform info for those regiments you need. However, they'll all be described with text, not illustration; however, because the differences are all in facing/button/leather colour, it shouldn't be an issue as they're all variations upon the basic uniform pattern. I know I saw somewhere a very good listing of those face, lace, leather, and button colours... but I'll have to dig it up again.
Also, Rad; looking around - I can easily find the uniform info for those regiments you need. However, they'll all be described with text, not illustration; however, because the differences are all in facing/button/leather colour, it shouldn't be an issue as they're all variations upon the basic uniform pattern. I know I saw somewhere a very good listing of those face, lace, leather, and button colours... but I'll have to dig it up again.
Geredis
Squire
Lucky for you, I've been throwing together this list. It's still a work in progress, and I haven't gone through all the regiments (I think) listed between our two trees that I sent you earlier, but this should cover most of them.
Sadly, I haven't found anything terribly useful for the Victoria Rifles. All Victoria Rifles searches I've been doing turn up the Victorian Rifles, that is forces from Australia or the battalion in the London Regiment of the Territorial army when it comes to uniforms.
=====
Victoria Rifles - Dark grey tunic with black facings with red trim. Forage with red band and black ball or Kilmanrock cap with red band. Black leathers and accoutrements. Grey trousers with single red stripe.
Officers - Grey tunic and pants with red stripe. Red facings, black trim.
- 24th Battalion did not exist in 1860s - Regiment consisted of 2 Battalions in this era; change number as appropriate.
- Second badge, like of an earlier period much closer to the 1860s. I'll have to look into it more.
Royal Regiment of Tornoto - scarlet skirted tunic. Gold buttons, black facings with white trim. White leathers and accoutrement. Black shako with ball of red bottom half and white top half. Dark blue trousers with single red line.
NCO - Rank worn on upper right sleeve. Sergeants and above wear red sash hanging from the right shoulder.
Officers - Higher quality materials, trimmed in silver lace and silver cord hanging from the left shoulder held in plasce by a red sash fom left shoulder. '
Home Guard - No standard uniform due to militia status. Towns often had something resembling a standardised uniform, but no regulated national appearance. Officers standardized in dark blue blue jacket over scarlet tunic and blue trousers. Red stripe on the trousers. Facings and trim according to local regulations.
Oxford Rifles - Black shell jacket with black buttons. Red trim. Inverness cuffs laced with red.
Officers - Same as rankers, including rank epaullets and shoulder shells.
Queen's Own Rifles - 2nd and 3rd Companies in Rifle Green with red facings. 5th company in Artillery Blue. 4th Company in Full Higland Dress consisting of a double-breasted Rifle-green doublet with red facings and Government (Black Watch) Tartan, with Plaid sash hanging from left shoulder crossing the chest.
Upon regularisation of this regiment, the uniform consisted of rifle-green trousers, matching green tunic with red facings. Kilmarnock forage cap along with belts, leathers, and all accoutrement in black.
Officer - Rifle green tunic faced red and laced in five rows of black cord across the front. Rifle-green trousers trimmed in two rows of black braid with a scarlet stripe between them down each pant leg.
Officers and NCOs alike wore black leather pouch with silver chain with whistle on one end, belt badge on the other.
Winter uniform consists of dark-grey greatcoat trimmed on the collar and along the front in matching fur with a wedged fur cap. Uniform otherwise appears to have remained the same.
78th Highlander - Scarlet doublet, Black bonnet with black hackle and red pompom with red trim around base. White facings, gold buttons. Government Plaid Tartan. Black leathers, red and white plaid socks to just below the knee.
47th Regiment of Foot - Scarlet tunic. Gold facing, white trim. Solid black trousers.
Montreal Volunteer Cavalry - Dark blue Shell Jacket, black trousers with thick white stripe. White leathers and accoutrements. Silver sword sheath. Black Hungarian-style fur shako (Busby) with read feather and drape on right side.
Royal Light Infantry - Scarlet tunic, dark blue facings and white trim. Dark blue trousers with single red stripe. Shako with white ball and brass regimental plate. Black leathers and accoutrements.
Officer - red sash from the left shoulder.
Royal Guides - Blue Hussar shell jacket with gold lace in 5 rows of braiding across the front. Matching blue trousers with a single gold stripe down the leg. Black leather boots, plumed dragoon-style helmet. Black leathers and accoutrements.
Canadian Black Watch - Red tunic, dark blue facings and trim with slashed Inverness cuffs and white crow's-foot. Black pillbox forage cap with red band or feathered bonnet with red hackle and pompom. Trews in the plaid of the Black Watch*.
Officers - long, double-breated dark-blue frock coat with low forage cap with black peak and red band. Four-button patrol jacket of the same colour worn while in active service.
Musicians - Same as Enlisted me, in green tunic.
*- "Trews are often tighter in the leg than trousers but[...]it does depend upon individual preference. [...]they sit higher on the waist than normal trousers..." Scottish Tartan Authority
===
Queen's Own Rifles of Canada - History and Uniform
Uniform of the Canadian Black Watch
Painting of the Montreal Volunteer Cavalry on Parade during Winter Quarters
Canadiam military Heritage - Entry for the 78th (Highland) Regiment of Foot. Uniform changed since mid 18th Century, of course, but colours and facings, etc do not
Oxford County, Ontario Website
Sadly, I haven't found anything terribly useful for the Victoria Rifles. All Victoria Rifles searches I've been doing turn up the Victorian Rifles, that is forces from Australia or the battalion in the London Regiment of the Territorial army when it comes to uniforms.
=====
Victoria Rifles - Dark grey tunic with black facings with red trim. Forage with red band and black ball or Kilmanrock cap with red band. Black leathers and accoutrements. Grey trousers with single red stripe.
Officers - Grey tunic and pants with red stripe. Red facings, black trim.
Royal Regiment of Tornoto - scarlet skirted tunic. Gold buttons, black facings with white trim. White leathers and accoutrement. Black shako with ball of red bottom half and white top half. Dark blue trousers with single red line.
NCO - Rank worn on upper right sleeve. Sergeants and above wear red sash hanging from the right shoulder.
Officers - Higher quality materials, trimmed in silver lace and silver cord hanging from the left shoulder held in plasce by a red sash fom left shoulder. '
Home Guard - No standard uniform due to militia status. Towns often had something resembling a standardised uniform, but no regulated national appearance. Officers standardized in dark blue blue jacket over scarlet tunic and blue trousers. Red stripe on the trousers. Facings and trim according to local regulations.
Oxford Rifles - Black shell jacket with black buttons. Red trim. Inverness cuffs laced with red.
Officers - Same as rankers, including rank epaullets and shoulder shells.
Queen's Own Rifles - 2nd and 3rd Companies in Rifle Green with red facings. 5th company in Artillery Blue. 4th Company in Full Higland Dress consisting of a double-breasted Rifle-green doublet with red facings and Government (Black Watch) Tartan, with Plaid sash hanging from left shoulder crossing the chest.
Upon regularisation of this regiment, the uniform consisted of rifle-green trousers, matching green tunic with red facings. Kilmarnock forage cap along with belts, leathers, and all accoutrement in black.
Officer - Rifle green tunic faced red and laced in five rows of black cord across the front. Rifle-green trousers trimmed in two rows of black braid with a scarlet stripe between them down each pant leg.
Officers and NCOs alike wore black leather pouch with silver chain with whistle on one end, belt badge on the other.
Winter uniform consists of dark-grey greatcoat trimmed on the collar and along the front in matching fur with a wedged fur cap. Uniform otherwise appears to have remained the same.
78th Highlander - Scarlet doublet, Black bonnet with black hackle and red pompom with red trim around base. White facings, gold buttons. Government Plaid Tartan. Black leathers, red and white plaid socks to just below the knee.
47th Regiment of Foot - Scarlet tunic. Gold facing, white trim. Solid black trousers.
Montreal Volunteer Cavalry - Dark blue Shell Jacket, black trousers with thick white stripe. White leathers and accoutrements. Silver sword sheath. Black Hungarian-style fur shako (Busby) with read feather and drape on right side.
Royal Light Infantry - Scarlet tunic, dark blue facings and white trim. Dark blue trousers with single red stripe. Shako with white ball and brass regimental plate. Black leathers and accoutrements.
Officer - red sash from the left shoulder.
Royal Guides - Blue Hussar shell jacket with gold lace in 5 rows of braiding across the front. Matching blue trousers with a single gold stripe down the leg. Black leather boots, plumed dragoon-style helmet. Black leathers and accoutrements.
Canadian Black Watch - Red tunic, dark blue facings and trim with slashed Inverness cuffs and white crow's-foot. Black pillbox forage cap with red band or feathered bonnet with red hackle and pompom. Trews in the plaid of the Black Watch*.
Officers - long, double-breated dark-blue frock coat with low forage cap with black peak and red band. Four-button patrol jacket of the same colour worn while in active service.
Musicians - Same as Enlisted me, in green tunic.
*- "Trews are often tighter in the leg than trousers but[...]it does depend upon individual preference. [...]they sit higher on the waist than normal trousers..." Scottish Tartan Authority
===
Queen's Own Rifles of Canada - History and Uniform
Uniform of the Canadian Black Watch
Painting of the Montreal Volunteer Cavalry on Parade during Winter Quarters
Canadiam military Heritage - Entry for the 78th (Highland) Regiment of Foot. Uniform changed since mid 18th Century, of course, but colours and facings, etc do not
Oxford County, Ontario Website
Geredis
Squire
I found the Toronto Regiment not long after I initially posted this. Based my description off of that images as well as the text further down the page. I think I have the Canadian books at home. Ill need to look when I get back. Definitely will add the Victoria Rifles soon as I stop getting hits from Australia.
Edit: changes forthcoming on main post above yo rectify issue with Oxford Rifles jacket. I think the displayed coat is an officers's uniform, but I could be wrong.
Edit: changes forthcoming on main post above yo rectify issue with Oxford Rifles jacket. I think the displayed coat is an officers's uniform, but I could be wrong.
Geredis
Squire
I'm looking into it regarding the Oxfords, and from the sound of it...yes, it seems that the Oxford jacket I found isn't that of a ranker. I don't doubt that the color plate is a Ranker uniform, but sorting the place of the black jacket is a bit more troublesome if you ask me. According to another source I found, the jackets for hte Oxfords are indeed scarlet faced with blue...perhaps with buff/white trim/piping... I'm thinking, given the ornateness of hte uniform, that the grey jacket is actually a musician's dress uniform.
As for shako vs Kilmanrock, yeah, probably a matter of dress and undress with the Shako for dress. As for handling it, I'd say put both in the kit for the soldiers, and let them pick hats as they wish, perhaps with a preference towards undress to start, and then swinging it the other way if it looks "off" in some way. Maybe a 25% shako 75% kilmanrock would be a good start, adjusting as necessary to give the right look to a battle line of them. I know that the Shako is a parade/dress uniform, and as a reenactor myself (Civil War admittedly), the undress hat (forage cap) is infinitely more comfortable than the dress cover (Hardee hat), and I'd imagine the same could be said of the various variations upon the highland bonnets compared to the stiff leather-faced shako.
s
As for shako vs Kilmanrock, yeah, probably a matter of dress and undress with the Shako for dress. As for handling it, I'd say put both in the kit for the soldiers, and let them pick hats as they wish, perhaps with a preference towards undress to start, and then swinging it the other way if it looks "off" in some way. Maybe a 25% shako 75% kilmanrock would be a good start, adjusting as necessary to give the right look to a battle line of them. I know that the Shako is a parade/dress uniform, and as a reenactor myself (Civil War admittedly), the undress hat (forage cap) is infinitely more comfortable than the dress cover (Hardee hat), and I'd imagine the same could be said of the various variations upon the highland bonnets compared to the stiff leather-faced shako.
s
Geredis
Squire
Officers would be a good mix of dress covers, undress covers, and uncovered, probably with most either going dress or uncovered. But don't quote me on that. I honestly do not know. I will look into it.
As for mexico. Again, I'm not sure and will have to look into that, but I can't imagine anyone in their right mind campaigning in full dress. Maybe fighting in garrison or on guard in the streets, but certainly not on a proper campaign...well, unless said campaign mirrors the puntitive campaign of the spring and summer of 1861 that kicked off the civil war. But that's another matter really.
As for mexico. Again, I'm not sure and will have to look into that, but I can't imagine anyone in their right mind campaigning in full dress. Maybe fighting in garrison or on guard in the streets, but certainly not on a proper campaign...well, unless said campaign mirrors the puntitive campaign of the spring and summer of 1861 that kicked off the civil war. But that's another matter really.
Geredis
Squire
Sorry to double-post but I was wondering. Do you guys have list of books in the mod? Like the retitled names for Alixenius The Great, On Logic, etc? If not, I'd be more than happy to quickly whip together. New list of titles for you all.
EDIT:
I've come up with a list of texts that would perhaps be fitting to replace the default texts, unless someone has since renamed the books. The only book I've yet to sort out is a replacement for the Engineering text.
As for what I do have so far:
EDIT:
I've come up with a list of texts that would perhaps be fitting to replace the default texts, unless someone has since renamed the books. The only book I've yet to sort out is a replacement for the Engineering text.
As for what I do have so far:
Antoine-Henri, Baron de Jomini, "Art of War" ("Précis de l'Art de la Guerre: Des Principales Combinaisons de la Stratégie, de la Grande Tactique et de la Politique Militaire") (183
+ Leadership
Carl von Clausewitz, "On War" ("Vom Krieg") (1832) + Tactics
William Joseph Hardee, "Rifle and Light Infantry Tactics for the Exercise and Manoeuvres of Troops When Acting as Light Infantry or Rifleman" or ("Hardee's Light Infantry and Rifle Tactics") (Published initially in 1855 and updated annually until 1861) +Training
F. W. Sargent's "On Bandaging and other Operations of Minor Surgery" (184. +Wound Treatment in Inventory
John Erichsen, "The Science and Art of Surgery, Being a Treatise on Surgical Injuries, Diseases, and Operations" (or "The Science and Art of Surgery") (1859) +Surgery in Inventory
Henry Charles Angelo, "Angelo's Bayonet Exercise" (1853) + Weapon Master
Hugh Blair, "Lectures on Rhetoric and Belles Lettres" (1783) + Persuasion
John Stuart Mill, "Principles of Political Economy" (184 + Trade
Abraham Rees, "Rees's Cyclopaedia" (1822) + Intelligence
+ Leadership
Carl von Clausewitz, "On War" ("Vom Krieg") (1832) + Tactics
William Joseph Hardee, "Rifle and Light Infantry Tactics for the Exercise and Manoeuvres of Troops When Acting as Light Infantry or Rifleman" or ("Hardee's Light Infantry and Rifle Tactics") (Published initially in 1855 and updated annually until 1861) +Training
F. W. Sargent's "On Bandaging and other Operations of Minor Surgery" (184
. +Wound Treatment in InventoryJohn Erichsen, "The Science and Art of Surgery, Being a Treatise on Surgical Injuries, Diseases, and Operations" (or "The Science and Art of Surgery") (1859) +Surgery in Inventory
Henry Charles Angelo, "Angelo's Bayonet Exercise" (1853) + Weapon Master
Hugh Blair, "Lectures on Rhetoric and Belles Lettres" (1783) + Persuasion
John Stuart Mill, "Principles of Political Economy" (184
+ TradeAbraham Rees, "Rees's Cyclopaedia" (1822) + Intelligence
Radetzky said:Wow great job Geredis!! We had no books updated if am I right, this will help us A LOT!
About the Mexicans: Well I am very unsure. They seem to be fighting often in dress uniform (as of photos and drawings, also in 1866 mod
Here are colour plates:
http://freymann.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/the-mexican-adventure/2-the_mexican_adventure/
And here is text description from Osprey book:
http://img31.imageshack.us/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=screenhunter01nov231029.jpg
I am really unsure about this tbh.
Also good thing I found out how looked Mexican Imperial Gendarme, so we might have Dept. and Bank in Mexico
The Mexican mentality in that time was: 'dressed proper is half the fight". Also I have a link to a site
with military drawings from lots of countries and you can choose a period. Example: Mexico -> 1859-1870.
When I'm (I'm at work now
) home I'll try to find it and I'll post it 
baskonia
Veteran
I think the white uniforms were worn by the militia, at first.
White uniforms are cheaper and easy to do. ( In my opinion, Were more common during the French occupation )
The French army defeated and decimated the Mexican Republican.
When the American Civil War ended, the Yankees sent money to the Mexican republicans, and they can buy more sophisticated weapons and uniforms.
The American Civil War ends in 1865. The French troops withdrew to France in 1866. And Maximilian was captured and executed in 1867.
Mexican republican forces had a good army uniform, from 1865.
For this reason, I think the white uniform must be reserved for weakest republican Mexican units.
White uniforms are cheaper and easy to do. ( In my opinion, Were more common during the French occupation )
The French army defeated and decimated the Mexican Republican.
When the American Civil War ended, the Yankees sent money to the Mexican republicans, and they can buy more sophisticated weapons and uniforms.
The American Civil War ends in 1865. The French troops withdrew to France in 1866. And Maximilian was captured and executed in 1867.
Mexican republican forces had a good army uniform, from 1865.
For this reason, I think the white uniform must be reserved for weakest republican Mexican units.
baskonia
Veteran
Yes, I think it is correct, Radetzky.
The soldiers in white uniforms might be militia infantry or light infantry less professional.
I think this mod will soon be the best mod of Warband.
PS: They are Republicans Mexican soldiers. Republicans need 10 Mexican soldiers to overcome or defeat an imperialist soldier.
The soldiers in white uniforms might be militia infantry or light infantry less professional.
I think this mod will soon be the best mod of Warband.
PS: They are Republicans Mexican soldiers. Republicans need 10 Mexican soldiers to overcome or defeat an imperialist soldier.
baskonia
Veteran
Mexican imperial army
1- Private infantry 1863-1865: This is imperialist soldier regularly until 1865, when the American Civil War ends.
They are imperialist soldiers of the years 1866 and 1867, until the death of Emperor Maximilian. It was in 1866 when French troops withdrew to France. So Maximilian reorganized the imperial army.
In my opinion, these imperialist soldiers should be the last of the tree of troops and stronger soldiers and veterans.
1- Private infantry 1863-1865: This is imperialist soldier regularly until 1865, when the American Civil War ends.
They are imperialist soldiers of the years 1866 and 1867, until the death of Emperor Maximilian. It was in 1866 when French troops withdrew to France. So Maximilian reorganized the imperial army.
In my opinion, these imperialist soldiers should be the last of the tree of troops and stronger soldiers and veterans.
Geredis
Squire
I'd say do away with the havelock infantry as a specific unit, nad instead just add havelocked kepis and forage caps at random to the early troops.
For "early war" stuff, I'd focus more on State Militias probably.
Medical corps and engineers, while interesting, probably can be passed on - the medical corps was actually a mostly civilian organisation that followed the troops (Sanitation Commission, early Red Cross people, etc etc) to do a fair bit of that sort of stuff. Military doctors, while not unheard of, were relatively uncommon and in both cases, would best be abstracted since they never really took the field. Modern battlefield medicine was unheard of. The casualties were policed and tended to only after the battle (well...except that ONE time I re-enacted at Neshaminy...and some Confederate cried out for a doctor...but we don't talk about that).
I'd pass on the engineers too, since all of the construction you do in game takes place kind of behind the scenes...and while maybe they could give a small engineering boost, it'd be more appropriate to have engineering officers only to direct the construction. Even in 'specialised' construction work (mining and counter-mining, explosives laying, constructing field fortifications) the officers from the Corps of Engineers basically just oversaw things.
Maybe having Companions from the Sanitary Commission and from the Army Corps of Engineers instead of having troop trees would be better.
For "early war" stuff, I'd focus more on State Militias probably.
Medical corps and engineers, while interesting, probably can be passed on - the medical corps was actually a mostly civilian organisation that followed the troops (Sanitation Commission, early Red Cross people, etc etc) to do a fair bit of that sort of stuff. Military doctors, while not unheard of, were relatively uncommon and in both cases, would best be abstracted since they never really took the field. Modern battlefield medicine was unheard of. The casualties were policed and tended to only after the battle (well...except that ONE time I re-enacted at Neshaminy...and some Confederate cried out for a doctor...but we don't talk about that).
I'd pass on the engineers too, since all of the construction you do in game takes place kind of behind the scenes...and while maybe they could give a small engineering boost, it'd be more appropriate to have engineering officers only to direct the construction. Even in 'specialised' construction work (mining and counter-mining, explosives laying, constructing field fortifications) the officers from the Corps of Engineers basically just oversaw things.
Maybe having Companions from the Sanitary Commission and from the Army Corps of Engineers instead of having troop trees would be better.
native American weapons
Why are all the Canadian Union lords French? In 1866, the area known as Canada had been British dominated for over 100 years and was one year away from Confederation. Most of the Lords should have British or Scots names with a small minority French. Kind of odd that you have the accurate red British uniforms, but all French names.
George A. Custer
Squire
Like the Indian weapons, all must remebet them by bow and arrow and not by Henry rifle.
Great job Bask!!
That clears some things out and helps all of us to see things in a different and more historical way
Now, smth I found on the net, watching your videos
NOBODY ever talks about those black guys that fought for the South...and the Blues that goes with this vid is very much matching...
A Tribute To Our Black Confederate Heroes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GVIAypsnh8&feature=related
That clears some things out and helps all of us to see things in a different and more historical way
Now, smth I found on the net, watching your videos
NOBODY ever talks about those black guys that fought for the South...and the Blues that goes with this vid is very much matching...
A Tribute To Our Black Confederate Heroes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GVIAypsnh8&feature=related
