Pharaoh X Llandy said:Players rejoice
[Werewolf] Werewolf: Black Death - Daybreak Day 6 - Crypto-flagellants win!
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The Wolf
Sergeant at Arms
Heads up, I might be without internet over Christmas. I'm also going to be busy today and tomorrow with getting home. Adaham knows, but I might as well let you know too. I'll be back first thing in January. Try not to kill me before I'm back.
And as an addendum, I am pleased to see Llandy show me how to concicely and explicitly question someone's contribution. Namely by invoking five others to do the actual contribution with the inspiring inquiry "Did he totally just do what I think he did!?"
My days of hunch-based outbursts have certainly come to an early middle.
And as an addendum, I am pleased to see Llandy show me how to concicely and explicitly question someone's contribution. Namely by invoking five others to do the actual contribution with the inspiring inquiry "Did he totally just do what I think he did!?"
My days of hunch-based outbursts have certainly come to an early middle.
The Wolf said:
Don't feel sad, Wolf-boy, ejnomad's explanation actually mostly clears you of what I thought you were trying to do in your speculation-post.
The "did he just do what I think he did?" aspect was because I didn't want to influence their responses, and because despite my asking those five (for reasons which will become clear soon) I know that I can't really trust any of them. Although I highly doubt all five of them are scum, chances are one or two could be.
For the sake of Moss and Shatari and any others who've been questioning my apparently odd behaviour, I'm writing up an explanation right now. It won't explain everything, but enough that hopefully not just the five players I named will be able to see where I was trying to go with this.
You're still hella suspicious, though. More on that at weekend, however.
Crazy Llandy Theory #1 - Weresistance
‘Kay, so my first crazy theory hinged on one fact which I believed to be true (that a scum could only kill somebody who was in the same Room as them at night). I understand, however, that I may have completely misinterpreted Adaham’s opening post. If that is the case, then my theory is (mostly) no longer relevant.
For my theory to work, I was operating under the assumption that we have a single pack (and maybe one converter scum, again, based on Adaham’s opening post that warned against breaking the game if you’re converted). Multiple packs doesn’t work as well with my theory.
For those who are familiar with Resistance (Xardob, Seff, ejnomad, Eternal, Phoney as players, and I know others read along too) then keep in mind that the biggest advantage the Resistance members have over the spies is that spies cannot co-ordinate their actions through night discussions. Also keep in mind that Adaham kicked his game off so fast that I don’t believe there was time for any pre-game discussion between the scum.
Working under the assumption that a scum would need to be in a room with a innocent to kill the innocent, I guessed that it would be in the pack’s best interests to spread themselves out, which would maximise their potential kill opportunities during Night. Since this is Day 1, and they had no chance for co-ordination, I assumed that the scum would try to ensure that there was only one, or at very most, two scum in any given room, to give themselves more potential kill-candidates.
What I was hoping to do was survive to Day 2 and then put together a list of players in rooms so that we could (using my “one scum per room” theory) attempt to narrow down some lynch options. The reason I didn’t want to mention this earlier is because this being Day 1, it is the only day in which the scum room movements are presumably uncoordinated. After today, the scum will have Night to strategise and discuss about which wolves are going to follow which innocents, or which rooms to best place themselves in for the next night kills.
I also guessed that if they were tipped off to the fact that somebody was scrutinising their “uncoordinated” movements and actions, they might alter their playing styles/movements, for example three of them moving into one room so that even if my “one scum per room” theory nailed one of them, it would practically exonerate the other two.
The Wolf’s post here rang some serious alarm bells for me as a Resistance player, as it seemed that he too had not only come to the same conclusion as me, but was voicing his conclusions as a way of prompting the other wolves into following his lead. I have seen Spies try to do exactly this (I’m looking at you, Eternal!) because they have no night-coordination, just like (presumably) the wolves do not have co-ordination right now.
If The Wolf did indeed believe (as I did) that a scum would be limited to killing someone in his own room, then I can see how his words were a way of encouraging other wolves to think a little more creatively than “spread out one per room” by hiding it behind speculation about the narrative.
So that’s it. The strongest theory I had. I’m sorry (to the innocents) that I couldn’t say anything sooner, but I didn’t want the wolves to wise on to my Weresistance theory, and I wanted to try and nail a couple whilst they were uncoordinated. Unfortunately, The Wolf’s post has essentially negated what I was trying to do. It does seem that my theory was wrong anyway, because I based it on a misunderstanding of the opening post. I know some people won’t find this explanation entirely satisfactory, I do still have one (smaller, crazier) theory left but I hope it does explain why I’ve been rather taciturn about answering questions.
‘Kay, so my first crazy theory hinged on one fact which I believed to be true (that a scum could only kill somebody who was in the same Room as them at night). I understand, however, that I may have completely misinterpreted Adaham’s opening post. If that is the case, then my theory is (mostly) no longer relevant.
For my theory to work, I was operating under the assumption that we have a single pack (and maybe one converter scum, again, based on Adaham’s opening post that warned against breaking the game if you’re converted). Multiple packs doesn’t work as well with my theory.
For those who are familiar with Resistance (Xardob, Seff, ejnomad, Eternal, Phoney as players, and I know others read along too) then keep in mind that the biggest advantage the Resistance members have over the spies is that spies cannot co-ordinate their actions through night discussions. Also keep in mind that Adaham kicked his game off so fast that I don’t believe there was time for any pre-game discussion between the scum.
Working under the assumption that a scum would need to be in a room with a innocent to kill the innocent, I guessed that it would be in the pack’s best interests to spread themselves out, which would maximise their potential kill opportunities during Night. Since this is Day 1, and they had no chance for co-ordination, I assumed that the scum would try to ensure that there was only one, or at very most, two scum in any given room, to give themselves more potential kill-candidates.
What I was hoping to do was survive to Day 2 and then put together a list of players in rooms so that we could (using my “one scum per room” theory) attempt to narrow down some lynch options. The reason I didn’t want to mention this earlier is because this being Day 1, it is the only day in which the scum room movements are presumably uncoordinated. After today, the scum will have Night to strategise and discuss about which wolves are going to follow which innocents, or which rooms to best place themselves in for the next night kills.
I also guessed that if they were tipped off to the fact that somebody was scrutinising their “uncoordinated” movements and actions, they might alter their playing styles/movements, for example three of them moving into one room so that even if my “one scum per room” theory nailed one of them, it would practically exonerate the other two.
The Wolf’s post here rang some serious alarm bells for me as a Resistance player, as it seemed that he too had not only come to the same conclusion as me, but was voicing his conclusions as a way of prompting the other wolves into following his lead. I have seen Spies try to do exactly this (I’m looking at you, Eternal!
) because they have no night-coordination, just like (presumably) the wolves do not have co-ordination right now.If The Wolf did indeed believe (as I did) that a scum would be limited to killing someone in his own room, then I can see how his words were a way of encouraging other wolves to think a little more creatively than “spread out one per room” by hiding it behind speculation about the narrative.
So that’s it. The strongest theory I had. I’m sorry (to the innocents) that I couldn’t say anything sooner, but I didn’t want the wolves to wise on to my Weresistance theory, and I wanted to try and nail a couple whilst they were uncoordinated. Unfortunately, The Wolf’s post has essentially negated what I was trying to do. It does seem that my theory was wrong anyway, because I based it on a misunderstanding of the opening post. I know some people won’t find this explanation entirely satisfactory, I do still have one (smaller, crazier) theory left but I hope it does explain why I’ve been rather taciturn about answering questions.
I won't have a lot of time to read the thread today, but I recalled something related to Wolf's comment. Adaham did clarify rooms a bit, though I suppose it's not as clear cut as I had originally assumed:
I still think we should divvy up in case there is a wolf who can only kill people in the room with them.
Adaham said:
I still think we should divvy up in case there is a wolf who can only kill people in the room with them.
Heh, I figured the names had to do with Resistance.
I do not have enough time to go sifting through the Twilight Zone game to see how the wolves were coordinating rooming there, but from what I remember, there were a couple of nights with no kills because of how "obvious" it would be to have them nailed as wolves, so I am not sure how important coordinating their room movements on Day 1 would be. Also, do you think this post by Eternal might be similar to what you think Wolfy was trying to do, or is it different since Wolfy went a little further with it?
I do not have enough time to go sifting through the Twilight Zone game to see how the wolves were coordinating rooming there, but from what I remember, there were a couple of nights with no kills because of how "obvious" it would be to have them nailed as wolves, so I am not sure how important coordinating their room movements on Day 1 would be. Also, do you think this post by Eternal might be similar to what you think Wolfy was trying to do, or is it different since Wolfy went a little further with it?
Phonemelter said:
I think it's different. I agree with Eternal that the villagers should spread out. The Wolf just made what I consider a massive huge faux pas by basically voicing the concerns I've been having since very early in the game and giving the wolves 'tips' about not being alone with villagers because they risk exposing themselves.
The only thing I have against Eternal is that he got a bit pissy when I explained it better than him to AWdeV
I think he thinks I stole his idea, but I think he was joking a bit when he said that to Locke.Reason I still think it's a good thing to spread out is my post here. Wolves might be able to kill anyone in any room, but abilities such as Roleblocker (and also THIEF if my guess here actually is accurate and not just more crap) should in theory be tied to whatever room the scum is in.
By splitting up, we make it harder for the scum to target our Specials.
Gotcha. I'm not sure why Wolf would be trying to communicate with other wolves when they would be able to think things over during the night - seems too risky to do Day 1. Granted, he could just be a sucky wolf overly excited about this game's mechanics (as he has stated), so your analysis could be correct.
You also do not need to convince me that we need to spread out - that much should be obvious to everyone. I was just asking about Eternal's suggestion because it could have been an attempt to let the other wolves in his pack know (if Cath is a wolf) what the game plan is in case any of them were unfamiliar with Whoopin's game and might be tempted to get more people to room with each other.
You also do not need to convince me that we need to spread out - that much should be obvious to everyone. I was just asking about Eternal's suggestion because it could have been an attempt to let the other wolves in his pack know (if Cath is a wolf) what the game plan is in case any of them were unfamiliar with Whoopin's game and might be tempted to get more people to room with each other.
Hmm. It's possible. I'll have to take a look at Eternal's posts more closely. I'll be going back over the whole thread over weekend, making notes and updating my frigging neglected spreadsheet. Unfortunately, I've spent too much time trying to balance between keeping too much heat off myself with trying to contribute, and failing badly at doing either very well.
Two more days.....
Two more days.....
leprechaun
Marquis
Urgh, only got out of work half an hour ago - 3.5 extra hours of pre-vital-demo-in-China bugfixing. I'm destroyed, no way I can post anything useful tonight. Sorry guys
Leprechaun said:Urgh, only got out of work half an hour ago - 3.5 extra hours of pre-vital-demo-in-China bugfixing. I'm destroyed, no way I can post anything useful tonight. Sorry guys
No worries, just cast your vote in Adabob's Poll Of The Day and get back to us when you can. Quite a few people are very busy (I'm still writing Christmas cards I started on Monday....) so you're not alone.
More questions.
@Locke:
You said Seff's contributions are usually lacking, but do you mean in length, content relevant to hunting, talking about things relevant to the game, or a combination of all three? I looked up old games on him to see how he played, and you are correct, but to me it looked like he is more questioning and finger pointy as an innocent. Those games are pretty old though, so I guess the meta isn't totally up to date.
I'm also curious about why you think The Wolf's post on mechanics was the most helpful thing this game (to you) - what makes you feel that way?
@Twinkie:
Some things about this reply to Whoopin -
1. Are you saying he ignored people in terms of their questions, or ignored to state his thoughts on?
2. Claims about intentional inactivity being a wolf is kind of lame. I know you are new here, but Whoopin is generally active regardless of role - his inactivity is usually caused by fatherly duties. Saying that "this is a strategy I've used as a wolf, so you are likely doing it too!" is a bit iffy too - not everyone has the same style, so you can't expect Whoopin Wolf to play like Twinkie Wolf. I admit to using "this player's activity reminds me of X" at times, but it should never be a main selling point. Similarly, you say that it is suspicious he replied when "pressure" was put on him - do you think that makes Xardob and Seff suspicious for "contributing" after I kept pressuring them to do so? Does that make me suspicious for quickly replying to Catholic's LoS bit about me? Does that make everyone else who has made a post solely to respond to concerns about them suspicious too?
3. If you don't know how everyone plays, you could always do some skimming or in-depth reading of other games - we have a thread cataloging all of that (as I think you have seen).
4. You say you are going to continue "looking around," but all I've seen you do is defend yourself. I'm fine with that, but you could always try to do so even in your replies to others.
I just noticed this - How was what Lep was saying "not sitting well right" with me? I do not remember saying much about him at the time - don't try to put words in my mouth and use them against other players. I might be misinterpreting what you are saying, but that is what I gathered from it. This might be a sarcastic remark about me finding problems with you that you disagree with, but if it is as much, at least include a
to make it more clear.
@Seff:
Are you saying here that you do not think wolves are going to lurk about and just go with the flow? Sure, wolves have reason to be active, but wolves also are not going to care who is lynched as long as it isn't one of their packies - they usually have less of a reason to try hard to sway the opinions of others unless there is a good reason to, at least from my experience.
I wasn't saying that you thinking LoS's are useful for conversation means you could write one, but I was just a bit disappointed that you said as much but didn't really bother to use them to further conversation if you felt that way about 'em (at the time). I did however like when you did look at Eternal's LoS (and other posts) in this post.
@Xardob:
I ca't tell if you are being jokey here or not - if you are not being jokey and are in fact innocent, why would you want the village to be confused? Totally more of a wolf tactic than an innocent tactic, unless you are trying to pull a Hawk and confuse everyone for your own personal wolfhunt at the expense of the village, but it isn't like you to employ such a strategy (unless you, like Llandy, have bought Whoopin's "Masterplan" kit). If you are being jokey, then ignore everything and try to be a little more clear (or make your avatar a jester or something).
@Moss:
This sounds a lot like role-phishing. I understand why you would want to get a further explanation from Llandy, but trying to draw out more information is a bit fishy.
@Velup:
Seff has been insightful? I thought the main reason a bunch of us have been on his case is because he hasn't been "insightful." What has he said that makes you think as much? (Keep in mind this was said prior to his recent post on Catholic)
@Soot:
While I am in agreement with Whoopin's suspicions on Xardob, you are right in that his condescending commentary is not the best way to present suspicions. Do you feel the same way about Twinkie's post here[url] then (especially the responses to Locke)?
@Locke:
You said Seff's contributions are usually lacking, but do you mean in length, content relevant to hunting, talking about things relevant to the game, or a combination of all three? I looked up old games on him to see how he played, and you are correct, but to me it looked like he is more questioning and finger pointy as an innocent. Those games are pretty old though, so I guess the meta isn't totally up to date.
I'm also curious about why you think The Wolf's post on mechanics was the most helpful thing this game (to you) - what makes you feel that way?
@Twinkie:
Some things about this reply to Whoopin -
1. Are you saying he ignored people in terms of their questions, or ignored to state his thoughts on?
2. Claims about intentional inactivity being a wolf is kind of lame. I know you are new here, but Whoopin is generally active regardless of role - his inactivity is usually caused by fatherly duties. Saying that "this is a strategy I've used as a wolf, so you are likely doing it too!" is a bit iffy too - not everyone has the same style, so you can't expect Whoopin Wolf to play like Twinkie Wolf. I admit to using "this player's activity reminds me of X" at times, but it should never be a main selling point. Similarly, you say that it is suspicious he replied when "pressure" was put on him - do you think that makes Xardob and Seff suspicious for "contributing" after I kept pressuring them to do so? Does that make me suspicious for quickly replying to Catholic's LoS bit about me? Does that make everyone else who has made a post solely to respond to concerns about them suspicious too?
3. If you don't know how everyone plays, you could always do some skimming or in-depth reading of other games - we have a thread cataloging all of that (as I think you have seen).
4. You say you are going to continue "looking around," but all I've seen you do is defend yourself. I'm fine with that, but you could always try to do so even in your replies to others.
Twinkle said:
I just noticed this - How was what Lep was saying "not sitting well right" with me? I do not remember saying much about him at the time - don't try to put words in my mouth and use them against other players. I might be misinterpreting what you are saying, but that is what I gathered from it. This might be a sarcastic remark about me finding problems with you that you disagree with, but if it is as much, at least include a
to make it more clear.@Seff:
Are you saying here that you do not think wolves are going to lurk about and just go with the flow? Sure, wolves have reason to be active, but wolves also are not going to care who is lynched as long as it isn't one of their packies - they usually have less of a reason to try hard to sway the opinions of others unless there is a good reason to, at least from my experience.
I wasn't saying that you thinking LoS's are useful for conversation means you could write one, but I was just a bit disappointed that you said as much but didn't really bother to use them to further conversation if you felt that way about 'em (at the time). I did however like when you did look at Eternal's LoS (and other posts) in this post.
@Xardob:
I ca't tell if you are being jokey here or not - if you are not being jokey and are in fact innocent, why would you want the village to be confused? Totally more of a wolf tactic than an innocent tactic, unless you are trying to pull a Hawk and confuse everyone for your own personal wolfhunt at the expense of the village, but it isn't like you to employ such a strategy (unless you, like Llandy, have bought Whoopin's "Masterplan" kit). If you are being jokey, then ignore everything and try to be a little more clear (or make your avatar a jester or something
).@Moss:
This sounds a lot like role-phishing. I understand why you would want to get a further explanation from Llandy, but trying to draw out more information is a bit fishy.
@Velup:
Seff has been insightful? I thought the main reason a bunch of us have been on his case is because he hasn't been "insightful." What has he said that makes you think as much? (Keep in mind this was said prior to his recent post on Catholic)
@Soot:
While I am in agreement with Whoopin's suspicions on Xardob, you are right in that his condescending commentary is not the best way to present suspicions. Do you feel the same way about Twinkie's post here[url] then (especially the responses to Locke)?
Whoopin
Grandmaster Knight
What do you suggest I do here? Ignore what I think is suspicious due to some players attitude? You are just reinforcing his behavior and if everyone did that then we would get no where. I found more than one post suspicious because different posts contradicted each other. Should I just go back to stop investigating players and posting my ideas and go back to "have faith in my ego" guesses that also didnt generate any riders?SootShade said:Less so with Whoopin's case on Xardob. Quoting all the posts someone has made and adding condescending commentary all over it isn't the best way present your suspicion. And yeah, I'm aware that might be a little hypocritical, considering how I made my case on Whoopin the last game, but at least I had a point to illustrate by doing so.
Im seriously disappointed you just disregarded my hard work, I dont think youre actually protecting him but if you are then you have to be a packmate or just as guilty as I by being opposite (instead of suspecting Xardob for his attitude, you dismiss my posts due to my attitude).
No one else in the roster is ****in up the wolf hunt and providing nothing like Xardob has done consistently.
Whoopin
Grandmaster Knight
Concerning Wolfs post I was thinking the opposite because while working with Adaham in creating this game I made it a point that abilities should be limited to rooms because if you breach that too much then room gameplay is pointless. In Twilight II Zone, the Brood Lord was a copy of the Reaper role that was a delayed kill to mask the room, it was so important that its possible Adaham did something similar so we have to look at resting history further back than simply one day.
Also I mentioned that rooms were created as a direct counter to conversions, it was a tool to identify a cleared innocent turned villain so I assume was have a vampire type role in play.
About Llandys idea, I did link Adaham to mafiascum wiki for ideas and theres a daytalk role that would be a useful nonviolent role to utilize, if its in play then Weresistance isnt really a strategy to rely on.
I still think we should spread out as much as possible because its plays the odds better. I have some other ideas on the setup but they give intel to the wolves just as much as the villagers.
Also I mentioned that rooms were created as a direct counter to conversions, it was a tool to identify a cleared innocent turned villain so I assume was have a vampire type role in play.
About Llandys idea, I did link Adaham to mafiascum wiki for ideas and theres a daytalk role that would be a useful nonviolent role to utilize, if its in play then Weresistance isnt really a strategy to rely on.
I still think we should spread out as much as possible because its plays the odds better. I have some other ideas on the setup but they give intel to the wolves just as much as the villagers.
Whoopin said:What do you suggest I do here? Ignore what I think is suspicious due to some players attitude? You are just reinforcing his behavior and if everyone did that then we would get no where. I found more than one post suspicious because different posts contradicted each other. Should I just go back to stop investigating players and posting my ideas and go back to "have faith in my ego" guesses that also didnt generate any riders?SootShade said:Less so with Whoopin's case on Xardob. Quoting all the posts someone has made and adding condescending commentary all over it isn't the best way present your suspicion. And yeah, I'm aware that might be a little hypocritical, considering how I made my case on Whoopin the last game, but at least I had a point to illustrate by doing so.
Im seriously disappointed you just disregarded my hard work, I dont think youre actually protecting him but if you are then you have to be a packmate or just as guilty as I by being opposite (instead of suspecting Xardob for his attitude, you dismiss my posts due to my attitude).
No one else in the roster is ****in up the wolf hunt and providing nothing like Xardob has done consistently.
I suggest you address something other than his jokes (which seem to account for most of the 'contradictions') and that he's annoying. Honestly, by now I've come to think that the more infuriating Xardob is to play with, the more likely he's innocent, and I really don't see what he's doing as directly harmful either. The one valid point you do bring up is that his actual contribution to the hunt has been lacking, which is why I do agree that he's worth keeping an eye on. However, overall your case isn't strong enough to warrant your certainty or dismissing everything he's said out of hand either, so I'm hoping you'll get about to something other than slightly hypocritical tunnel visioning at some point.
Phonemelter said:
Uhh... I guess I have to actually get around to reading that, huh?
It's really repetitive, and hard to read because of all the bits of quotes, but overall his stance makes sense and the post seems to be meant to actually answer accusations instead of outright dismissing them, even if it's done in a somewhat poor way. I admittedly have had a hard time keeping up with Twinkle's posts because of the aforementioned reasons, but now that I'm actually paying attention it appears to me like Locke's presenting a weirdly distorted view here. I will have to properly read back on all of Twinkle's arguments, but so far even in the cases that I don't agree I think his stance the whole discussion around Llandy makes sense from a innocent point of view.
Whoopin
Grandmaster Knight
SootShade said:
I did address something other than his jokes and in the end made it clear he wasnt helping the hunt and should be kept an eye on. How is tunnelvision on Xardob hypocritical especially since tunnelvision requires more than one post of accusations? Its OK its apparent its a waste of time to convince you of my suspicions since youre clearly biased.
And I disagree with you, what he is doing is harmful because it even generated this conversation that just went no where!
