Baltic Factions

since i live in estonia myself, i decided to start a little research for the estonia (and baltics)
so in 1200AD ,in estonia there were tribes(Teutonic Order crusade started 1208AD also know as estonian independence war [in estonia atleast])
there were alot of tribes in estonia,wich each had its own elder(in E1200 they are like lords ,only they are called elders),im gonna talk more spesific later,if  anyone even wants me to do a research about them,wich i would really like to.i got the map,history and all in books,if you wonder how am i doing the res.ofcourse wiki and all other srtuff in the internet will help too  NB! this description is old.

"Though he landed in the mouth of the Daugava in 1200 with only 23 ships and 500 soldiers, the bishop's efforts ensured that a constant flow of recruits followed."
This little text is found under Northern Crusades in Campaign against the livonians. i thikn we should follow that info. so it would make  that we have  Albert having ~200 men and then he has some helping Nobles which would have the rest of 300 men.

Troop tree progress(1.00 max)
Northern Baltic Tribes troop tree:0.55
Saaremaa( Oeselian) troop tree: 0.80
Lithuanian troop tree:0.00
Prussian troop tree:0.00
Crusaders(Teutonic???) troop tree:0.75
Curonian troop tree:0.00

all suggestions are highly welcomed
explanation of the troop tree symbols and such things:
Infantry,F.Archers,Cavalry,H.Archers,Ranged Inf.(javelins ,throwing axes),elite troops(unique troops)
upgrades : \ , / , --        ( ) means questionable , [ ] questionable name , + this shows that to the troop name  there can be a specification( trained, veteran)

Troop trees
Soon to be updated

Northern Baltic tribes Settlements
Crusaders Settlements
Diplomacy


opinion is a must. its the biggest help i can  get making these troop trees.

The map of the Southern Baltics.
Map of estonian tribes
These countries in the map wont all be in, only the major ones shall be included(lithuanians, curonians, prussians,latgals, and estonian tribes and livonians)


Current map of Baltics.

It might be my poor geography but I barely know where estonia is. Isn't it too small for all of those villages and forts? Now I'm curious about the map. Tell us more about it's history in the 1200 hundreds, I don't think I ever heard something about it (I'm not talking down your country, we just don't learn any history about eastern europe here, let alone estonia itself  )

yes, your correct, estonia is too small for all those forts,but it should little bigger than the galway faction in ireland( 1 fort more perhaps[plus 1 village with it])

why isnt there much about estonians in 1200.reason is they were pagans,and noone knew about them before the year 1208(Teutonic orders crusade) if i remmber then estonia was in iron age still ,in that time. anyway i will upload a map today(historical ,not modified for the game)

ganso said:

It might be my poor geography but I barely know where estonia is.

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Just to the north of Latvia, which is to the north of Lithuania, which is to the north of Poland (and, funnily enough, I'm not sure what's to the south of Poland - Czechia, Hungary and/or Romania?). And while Estonia is a Baltic country, it should be noted it's not exactly Baltic/Balto-Slavic (like Latvia and Lithuania), but Finno-Ugrian (i.e. linguistically closer to Finland).

About the research - good luck, mate! I'm quite interested in that area in general and I think that particularly in 1200 the situation there should be quite interesting. Quite more than the good old "we know them all" factions in the West and South (I'd even say it could be more interesting than my own country and area (i.e. South-East) at the time, which coming from a Balkaner should say a lot).

thanks for your support nikeBG .
so a little bit about the baltic history.the main guy was bishop Albert,who landed on the spring of 1200 in baltic land,with 500 men(mostly germans)he landed near the livonian trade-center,and conquered it.later, in year 1201 he built a city in the place where he landed ,it was to be called Riga. so to take it all simple, in 1200 the crusaders had a little beachhead with the little livonian village-tradecenter and some surrounding castles(max 2) with some more villages.my question is to the map makers(modders basic.) should the trade center be town(Riga) or will it be as it was in history a village.
now the factions: there should be atleast 2 factions in the baltics,and they are estonians(tribes) and livonians(tribes) .about these factions,they are quite similar in religion(both are pagans) although  in armaments the livonians are a bit advanced(contacts with the eastern  factions),but still both are quite similar(mostly wooden spears[with iron heads] and clubs,and wooden shields,and mostly leather boots and cloth shirts(no iron or that kind of armour,except the elders having maybe a light chainmail(traded or stolen or captured from enemies)and also very few iron swords for most of the lords and some elite warriors.Axes  are quite well know and used by estonians too,but not as much as spears.about horses,they were few and they didnt use almost any other weapons than spears and axes.The livonians had basically the same, but used more of iron weapons and armour. anyway i gotta end. later i will talk about estonians more
by the way , i dont know much about livonians ,so i just write everything i find about them in books and in internet.about estonians i know a lot more

Same info about Latvia at 1200. in that time we had 5 tribes - Kurši, zemgaļi, latgaļi, līvi and sēļi.
In Lithuania i found 7 tribes  at 1200 - prusi, galindi, lietuvji, zemaisi, augstgaisi, skalvji and jatvingi.
Name -livonians is not right more propiret would be baltic tribes or somthing like that.
each of these tribes had they own kings or leaders, all elders were more or less under their kings command, like in europe lords were under their kings control.
teritory were these baltic tribes lived in 1200 was from river Visla in Poland up to Estonia.
they used swords, axes, spears and heavy clubs more like hammers,throving axes and they knew xbovs, but didnt use them because only kings could afford armor like western knights,and more usseful was bow and arows.
sory about bad english,later i will put more info about Baltic tribes,except estonians -i have no info about them. And names of towns, castles and villiges and map were they were aproximetly

ok good,i finally have my connection back . in the evening today ill upload finally a map. thanks for  aiding me with southern baltics.  about latvians the 2 tribes to be added (if not making them united), should be zemgali and latgalians ,and in lithuania maybe 2 but more known is galindians(in the peninsula of Kura[in estonian its Kura])

i found Latvian tribe leaders names
Viestarts- elder of zemgali and they have town -Mezotne or Medsuna, it was a town not castle
Lamekins-elder of kursi and they  have 2 castles -Jurpils or Seeborg and Apulia or Apole
Visvaldis-elder of latgali and they have 1 town -Jersika
Vetseke-elder of seli and they have 2 castles -Selpils and Koknese

All these persons and locations are mentioned in German chronicles about 1203-1209 so they were there in 1200

Mindaug-king of Lithuania not sure if he lived in 1200 but i will do same research later

Latvian tribes regularly were fighting with Sweden"s konungs

First of all, good luck in researching!
Secondly, I advise that you modify the first post whenever you find some new info.
That way, someone can quickly see what was researched.
Check the first post in the thread for Bosnia and Ragusa.
I'm not bragging about it cause I started that thread, but because it is simple, easy to read, and it shows you everything you need to know, all in the first post.
Also, if you have any historical indication that some of those tribes were more/less united,
I suggest putting them together, and not splitting them into many tribes, because it is easier to make them,
and because micro-factions are very vulnerable.

martin2 said:

I have seen your post about Bosnia nice work but i dint know how to make spoilers, i need little instruction how to make them

Click to expand...

OK:
Go to post reply.
Above your text box, you will see a lot of yellow smiley faces.
Above those smiley faces are some icons.
Press the one that looks like a nuclear waste sign.
Then, on your text box, something like this will appear:
[spolier] [/spolier]
Now, you must place whatever you want between the 2 spoiler thingies, whether it's a picture, a direct link, or just a text.
[spolier]RIGHT HERE![/spolier]
Then, your spoiler will work, like this:
You can also select the thing you want spoilered with your mouse,
and then just click that spoiler sign.

As for modifying the first post, only King of Europe can do that, since he started the thread.

king of europe said:

and in lithuania maybe 2 but more known is galindians(in the peninsula of Kura[in estonian its Kura])

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Hmm, Galindians is their native name? Because they're otherwise far, far better known as Curonians.

Yes of course there were people in Estonia at that time but...

In 1200 Esti did not have a single ruler, it was just a bunch of completely independent tribes who sometimes fought each other. Plus most of them were tributaries of Novgorod and the tribute was voluntary and not just when the prince of Novgorod made raids. They were not allowed to have an foreign policy independent from Novgorod and they were too weak to have one anyway

Sorry

NikeBG said:

king of europe said:

and in lithuania maybe 2 but more known is galindians(in the peninsula of Kura[in estonian its Kura])

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Hmm, Galindians is their native name? Because they're otherwise far, far better known as Curonians.

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There were actualy two Galindian tribes, Eastern and Western one. Galindians comes from a word "galas" which means "end", as in the end of a stick, or the end of land where people with similar culture is living.  Eastern Galindians were already conquered by 1200 so they should not be of any interest to us. While western Galindians are one of the Prussian tribe and are nor Curonian, nor Lithuanian.

Balt tribes by 1200, should be:
Eastern Balts:
Latgalians
Selonians
Semigalians
Lithuanians

Western Balts:
Curonians
Samogitians
Prussians(which consist of ~11 independent tribes)
Jotvingians

As far as equipment goes for Balts I can see 2-3 different troop trees, with mainly equipment differences. That or just one global to cover them all(like we did in 1257AD).

martin2 said:

Mindaug-king of Lithuania not sure if he lived in 1200 but i will do same research later

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Hardly. Živinbudas is the best bet to be an Lithuanian Elder Duke.

I don't have any knowledge about Estonians tho.

i `suggest that Baltic tribes make as one faction with same elder council or something like that , not lots of minor factions which are very vulnerable

martin2 said:

i `suggest that Baltic tribes make as one faction with same elder council or something like that , not lots of minor factions which are very vulnerable

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That would be the same as making the Kingdom England, Scotland and Welsh as a one faction, named "United Kingdom". Uniting some of the tribes might be possible, like having one faction as a "Prussian tribes" and not separating them into 11 separate tribes might be with reason(and even that is stretching). But it's realy a question if you want to be more historical or practical. In 1257AD we tried to have smaller Balt tribes as a one faction "united" against the common foe - in this case the crusaders. But in the end we did separate them into individual tribes, as it did not make too much sense having them as one. We also made small factions allot more survivable, with artificial means. So it's really up to developers on how they want to proceed.

thank you very much with the research of southern half of baltic area.

Hello to all.

Actually this is interesting question, i think In baltic region definatly must be city Riga as trade center, becouse in history that was true, just maybe little latter. Abaut tribes, i think can make some minor tribes from Latvia,Estonia and Lithuania , that will be the most rigt answer to this question. Becouse  , actually in war against crusaders, in Grand Duchy of Lithuania , was not only lithuanian soldiers, but from all baltic region including estonia.
By the way, i'm from Riga And i can help too abaut information, just let me know.

DesH said:

Hello to all.

Actually this is interesting question, i think In baltic region definatly must be city Riga as trade center, becouse in history that was true, just maybe little latter. Abaut tribes, i think can make some minor tribes from Latvia,Estonia and Lithuania , that will be the most rigt answer to this question. Becouse  , actually in war against crusaders, in Grand Duchy of Lithuania , was not only lithuanian soldiers, but from all baltic region including estonia.
By the way, i'm from Riga And i can help too abaut information, just let me know.

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But wasn't Riga founded 1201? (Sorry....) I'd agree with the city's importance, but I think it became strong during the first quarter of the 13th century. So the question would be: Was there something like a town in 1200, where Riga is today? Or maybe just a castle? And wouldn't it be part of HRE or the crusaders as it was a fortress against baltic tribes? Just questions, guys....

yes
Riga was founded in 1201 , as a city. riga was founded in the place where the first crusaders came,it was a livonian trade center, with an unknown name. so i guess we can name it riga as a village,since it was a small place.
as you can see i have come back tor esearch as i have got some new books(well only 1 actually ) wich is called history of the baltic countries (translation from estonia) and this book is first publishd by palgrave macmillan.
so lets go on with the research.ive got a really good map about the baltic states in 1150(the  tribes/countries didnt change a lot in those years)wich bring out couple of tribes in that year.there are alot of smaller too.but the main tribes/countries are( startin from biggest to smallest):lithuanians-estonians-prussians-livonians-latgals-curonians,and between them are  4-5 smaller tribes wich territories can be divided by the major tribes. about these majors.  in my opinion 4 is enough(leaving curonians and latgals out) and giving curonians to livonians and latgals given to estonian,livonian,lithuanian and novgorod(latgals territories divided to these 4. also there is a different kind of ppl in an island now called Saaremaa. wich were  viking-like people with very good sea skill.(they raided sigtuna,that time swedish most importnant town(yr. 1187). but obviously not importnant enough to brought  as a separate tribe. maybe just a differetn troop tree for them(just as almohads having berber troop tree) now about crusaders and theyre territories.i think that the faction should be called  teutonic order,although its unhistorical. but giving them to HRE or Denmark is too much,as the crusaders had theyre own state. in year 1200 crusaders had about 750-1250 men(counting the men that came with bishop albert in 1200) they had a castle called in local language ikškile or üksküla in estonian. and some villages around it(max 2 plus maybe a very small fort near the village of riga(talked in the first part of this reply) .it was in the riverside of daugava but further away from coast.(in 1201 bishop albert made a choise to move the capital to much more defendable area  and founded riga) thats it from me now. hope that everyone got some info from this reply. thank for reading