Banate of Bosnia & Republic of Ragusa

[MihailoSRB]

Bosnia

NAME:
Banate of Bosnia

AT WAR WITH:
Hungary

RELIGION:
Catholic and Orthodox Christian

LORDS, WIVES AND DAUGHTERS:

(click to show/hide)

Lords:
1. Ban Kulin (ruler)
0x0000000ced0022083ae27a16d489c0a600000000001eca4b0000000000000000
Lord of Soli and Bilino Polje

2. Prince Kotroman
0x0000000e800c32c1351a499ad969c49500000000001da96b0000000000000000
Lord of Doboj and Dubnica

3. Prince Stefan Kulinović
0x000000032600211438e47616cc89b0a500000000001eca4b0000000000000000
Lord of Kučevo and Prača

4. Prince Buken
0x00000009b704328723775967624ca0dc00000000001ce7630000000000000000
Lord of Mačva and Prača

5. Lord Radivoj
0x0000000e161023424a9c2d3d9b56992a00000000001d39330000000000000000
Lord of Greben and Banice

6. Lord Matej Ninoslav Radivojević
0x00000000211015834a9c4d38db76a92a00000000001d392b0000000000000000
Lord of Kom and Rama

7. Prince Krile
0x000000086a04519357116857542cd46c00000000001d57eb0000000000000000
Lord of Mile

Wives:
Vojislava, wife of Kulin, mother to Stefan Kulinović
0x0000000e7000000463a58ec69b9126dc00000000001dc6490000000000000000
 
Ancila, wife of Stefan Kulinović
0x000000040e101005485169971492d65c00000000001ed51c0000000000000000

Daughters:
Desislava - daughter to Kotroman
0x000000040004100634c851b771cd498d00000000001db6a40000000000000000

Višnja - daughter to Buken
0x000000040004100634c951b771cd498d00000000001db6a40000000000000000

Neda - daughter to Radivoj
0x00000000070c000255944e394c70e5b200000000001e245b0000000000000000

Relations:
Kulin is father to Stefan and Ljubin
Radivoj is father to Matej Ninoslav

MAP(S):
Map with settlements (Castles are red, villages are blue):

(click to show/hide)

HERALDRY:
This symbol should be on the flag of Bosnia:

(click to show/hide)

Now, I would choose that symbol itself be white color, and that the background be blue.
Like on this variation:

(click to show/hide)

This second symbol should be given to Prince Kotroman only (the alleged founder of Kotromanić dynasty). The COA is the same as the one used by King Tvrtko in 14th century, minus the crown at the top (Bosnia was not a kingdom yet).

(click to show/hide)

ARMY:
Ok, as I said, if no one suggests a troop tree, I will modify Serbian tree a bit to make Bosnian.
Here are Serbian Noble and Professional troop trees (Bosnian Rural tree will be different than Serbian)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

So, the Bosnian trees should look like this:

(click to show/hide)

Bosnian Noble troop tree
One change from Serbian tree:
Removed Stegonoše (Banner Carriers) because I haven't found a proof that the exact title existed in Bosnia.
So, we come to this:
1.Sluga --- 2.Veliki Sluga --- 3.Štitonoša --- 4.Vitez --- 5.Velmoža
1.Bosnian Servant --- 2.Bosnian Grand Servant --- 3.Bosnian Squire --- 4.Bosnian Knight --- 5.Bosnian Noble
Equipment stays the same.
Plural names: Sluge, Velike Sluge, Štitonoše, Vitezi, Vlastela.

Bosnian Professional troop tree
Changes from Serbian tree:
Remove Byzantine cone helmets from the equipment.
Bosnian lvl. 4 footmen (Vlastelica) do not get horses at all.

   1.Bosnian Soldier --- 2.Bosnian Footman --- 3.Bosnian Vet. Footman --- 4.Vlasteličić
      |           
   2.Bosnian Archer     
      |
   3.Bosnian Vet. Archer
      |
   4.Bosnian Marksman
      |
   5.Vlasteličić Strelac

   Plural forms: Vlastelica, Vlastelica Strelci.

Bosnian Rural troop tree* (as suggested by Korinov)
*Also serves as a Militia tree for towns.

Bosnian serf/peasant
   1. Bosnian footman
       1.1. Bosnian axeman?
       1.2. Bosnian pikeman
           1.2.1. Bosnian vet. pikeman
   2. Bosnian skirmisher
       2.1. Bosnian javelinman
          2.1.1. Bosnian bowman
             2.1.1.1. Bosnian vet. bowman

Note for ALL Bosnian troops using mail armour. There are NO mail with long sleeves and NO mail which reaches to the knees, only to half of the thigh or to the belt.
Also, no heraldic armor for any troops of any troop tree!

Misc:
Ambush ability

Dubrovnik (Ragusa)

NAME:
Republic of Ragusa

AT WAR WITH:
None.

LORDS, WIVES AND DAUGHTERS:

(click to show/hide)

Lords:
- Prince Dobroslav (ruler)
0x000000073f0821844ce26d395caabb2100000000001dd35a0000000000000000

- Vicar Krvaš
0x0000000f510c32c8246b8964e5ae299a00000000001ed71a0000000000000000

- Lord Damjan Juda
0x000000000010300123a36a49e64db32a00000000001db2b40000000000000000
If possible, give him AI personality lrep_cunning.
Wives:
N/A
Daughters:
Valeria, daughter of Krvaš
0x000000054000300136db6db6db6db6db00000000001db6db0000000000000000

MAP(S):
Map with settlements (Castles are red, villages are blue):

(click to show/hide)

SETTLEMENTS:

(click to show/hide)

1 Town - Dubrovnik (Praven)
2 mercenary camps

HERALDRY:

(click to show/hide)

ARMY:

(click to show/hide)

Troops from Dubrovnik will be Dalmatian Troop Tree.

Dubrovnik will have 2 mercenary camps, where they will recruit, more or less this Troops:
1. Ragusan mercenary (lvl. 8 )
   1. Ragusan solidarius
      1. Ragusan vet. solidarius
         1. Ragusan pikeman
            1. Ragusan vet. pikeman
         2. Ragusan swordman
            1. Ragusan vet. swordman
      2. Ragusan horseman
         1. Ragusan vet. horseman
   2. Ragusan crossbowman
      1. Ragusan pavise crossbowman
         1. Ragusan vet. pavise crossbowman

Everybody with "mercenary looks" to highlight their mercenary nature.
The top tier troops would be pretty elite at lvl. 24 (the Ragusan Veteran Swordman would be more or less like a Hired Blade merc) and to be fair this would be much more a professional TT than a militia one, but that would compensate the lack of a noble troop tree.

[MihailoSRB]

I'm not really certain that Bosnian army of that period would be exactly same as Serbian, specialy when we arent that certain how Serbian army looked like either...
well anyway I dont think byzantine influence in Bosnia would be that strong
Bosnia was after all small, isolated mountain country, yet it had great trade relations with Dubrovnik/Ragusa from which highest nobility and ban Kulin himself might have imported italian and german weaponry, as later both Bosnia and Serbia certainly did...
also its reasonable to assume trade relations and weapon and armor influx from Croatia and Serbia...
as for peasant units, there is not much to smart around, just normal cloth or maybe padded and leather for higher upgrades and general slavic look, with tendency to keep most cloth white
archery should be important and Bosnia should have good archers
here are some pics from stećak's
they are from later periods, and that is mostly reflected on shields... here you will see shields you may seen on Hungarian or Polish hussars, this is area where they originate from
manny of stećaks have archers shown, archery seems to be quite important in medieval Bosnia, he aparently wears some sort of padded armor
(click to show/hide)
here are some other examples of what is found from soldiers and weaponry on stećaks
(click to show/hide)
Bosnia is mountainous, and while there wouldnt be manny horsemen the best, noble part of army would be mounted
javelins, bows, axes, straight swords and spears would be used, but I am not really that sure about maces, I think they are from later period
and even highest nobles would use chainmail, certainly... maybe along scale and lamelar armors
bows would be curved bows
javelins would be widely used, even by horsemen ( lesser nobles ) but I dont think there was horse archery present in Bosnia

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

I agree about archers. Maybe we could add a new high level archer, and remove one level of infantry or spearmen or both?
Edit:
Added the change in the previous post.

[Korinov]

About the sergeants' armours, with Hungary I mainly used the same armors that western sarges use, because 1) they're troops with a certain western influence, 2) those armors are indeed padded leather and/or mail under a heraldic tunic (which just reflects the banner of the lord they're fighting for).

Oh, and thanks for opening the thread 

[MihailoSRB]

javelins, bows, axes, straight swords and spears would be used, but I am not really that sure about maces, I think they are from later period
and even highest nobles would use chainmail, certainly... maybe along scale and lamelar armors
bows would be curved bows
javelins would be widely used, even by horsemen ( lesser nobles ) but I dont think there was horse archery present in Bosnia

It's OK with me if only the noble troop tree is mounted, it has sense.
As for the maces, I do not think that they are from later period, as far as I know, in these parts there have been more maces found than swords. I think that only the Morningstar mace wasn't used, unlike other types of that weapon.
About horse archery, I gave bows to the highest type of noble unit for Serbia, but, as I noted, we didn't have the Mongol-shoot-and-ride tactics, but rather shooted from bows when standing still with their horses (at the beggining of battle?) and when dismounted.
So it is possible that Bosnian mounted units also had bows, but, like Serbian warriors, have unlickely used them when riding.
This is very hard to implement because of game mechanics, so I was thinking more than once about kicking them out of Vlastela's weapon arsenal, but then, I wanted historical accuracy, so I was divided (and still am) on that subject matter.

Also, something popped on my mind. Since Bosnia was a mountainous state, full of archers, why not giving them the ability (like with Ireland and Wales) of ambushing an opponents army?
There are many historical events when Bosnia was attacked by Hungary, Serbia, or someone else, when the people simply ran from the towns and used guerilla tactics on the enemy. Serbia also waged war this way for many years, before becoming too cocky, and started to fight the ''noble way''... which worked until the Turks came... 

About the sergeants' armours, with Hungary I mainly used the same armors that western sarges use, because 1) they're troops with a certain western influence, 2) those armors are indeed padded leather and/or mail under a heraldic tunic (which just reflects the banner of the lord they're fighting for).

I don't think that Bosnia had heraldic tunics, until late 14th century, or maybe not even then.
As for other armour, hopefully, some people will post their suggestions here.

Oh, and thanks for opening the thread 

No problems. Hope I am not going to talk only with myself (and Hrobatos) on this thread. 

[Cuffeee]

If it helps somewhat there is a map I found, however it's far more detailed for Serbia, it only shows regions of Bosnia and it's ca. 1220 (and maps can often be wrong of course).
http://www.scribd.com/doc/54147238/15/Map-2-1The-Kingdom-of-Serbia-and-the-Banate-of-Bosnia-ca-1220

I think in 1200 Bosnia controlled the coastal region too?

Also I also read that the Ban managed to stave off war with Papal States and a crusade against Bosnia by pretending to be catholic?

[Korinov]

About the sergeants' armours, with Hungary I mainly used the same armors that western sarges use, because 1) they're troops with a certain western influence, 2) those armors are indeed padded leather and/or mail under a heraldic tunic (which just reflects the banner of the lord they're fighting for).

I don't think that Bosnia had heraldic tunics, until late 14th century, or maybe not even then.
As for other armour, hopefully, some people will post their suggestions here.

Hmm... the hungarians did, at least? If we're not sure about it, I can just give the Hungarian sarges a combination of padded leather, scaled leather, mail and a bit of scale armor.

Which is what I'm going to do with Bosnia, I think.

[MihailoSRB]

If it helps somewhat there is a map I found, however it's far more detailed for Serbia, it only shows regions of Bosnia and it's ca. 1220 (and maps can often be wrong of course).
http://www.scribd.com/doc/54147238/15/Map-2-1The-Kingdom-of-Serbia-and-the-Banate-of-Bosnia-ca-1220
I think in 1200 Bosnia controlled the coastal region too?

No, I think that your map is more-less right, I think that Bosnia didn't have a coastal region in 1200, although, I will have to check it out.

Also I also read that the Ban managed to stave off war with Papal States and a crusade against Bosnia by pretending to be catholic?

Yes. He did a lot more things like that. He was a cunning man.

About the sergeants' armours, with Hungary I mainly used the same armors that western sarges use, because 1) they're troops with a certain western influence, 2) those armors are indeed padded leather and/or mail under a heraldic tunic (which just reflects the banner of the lord they're fighting for).

I don't think that Bosnia had heraldic tunics, until late 14th century, or maybe not even then.
As for other armour, hopefully, some people will post their suggestions here.

Hmm... the hungarians did, at least? If we're not sure about it, I can just give the Hungarian sarges a combination of padded leather, scaled leather, mail and a bit of scale armor.
Which is what I'm going to do with Bosnia, I think.

I really don't have an idea about Hungarian heraldic tunics, probably the guys from Hungarian research thread know, but for Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria I am dead certain that they didn't use heraldic armour in 1200 AD.

I have found this map which show us the exact borders of Serbia and Bosnia in late XII, early XIII cent:

(click to show/hide)

My next task is to find the settlements and create a map with these borders + settlements.
I have put those 3 maps in the first post, and have also gave titles to lords.

[Hrobatos]

Bosnia certainly did not controled coastal regions in 1200, as I alredy said, Bosnia now is n Bosnia proper before
it spreaded on Croatian and Serb ethnic teritories so maps are accurate

here is another map, pink and orange is Bosnia at 1200, the yellow are teritories conquered in mid 14. century and blue in 15. century
http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/66/Bosna.jpg




the Bosnian church was not bogomil, if anyone really cares, John Fine, foreign historian interested in Balkans history wrote
book The Bosnian church
and since ban Kulin  basicly made pope believe that they are faithful to Catholic church, they should be made as such to avoid
 as historicly any kind of religious wars



I dont think Neretvania was held by Serbia at the time since second half of 12. and whole 13. century is time of the greatest power
of Neretvania and Croatian noble family Kačići which ruled it
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%C4%8Di%C4%87i

they also controled southern islands on Croatian coast

[Cèsar de Quart]

Isn't making Bogomilism the religion of Bosnia a little extreme? Kind of like making Catharism the religion of all the county of Toulouse... it'smore a thing of several lords than of the Ban himself.

[Hrobatos]

exactly what I'm saying, making them catholics would be more accurate

and its not bogomilism, but Bosnian church, which is quite different from bogomilism, more of a local catholic slavic church independent from
Pope and Rome, and while this isnt really important for mod itself, it is from historical side... and a thing good to know

[Cruger]

Isn't making Bogomilism the religion of Bosnia a little extreme? Kind of like making Catharism the religion of all the county of Toulouse.

Clearly you havn't made your Warband work yet

[Tvrtko II Kotromanic]

Hello,
Man from  Bosnia is here

- DrevniDabar map from Your first post is the right one. It's true, Bosnia didn't had coastal part at that time.

-It's Bosnian church, not classy Bogomilism.There is difference that  Bosnian church had less aversion toward  materialism than  beliefs - preaching of bogumil's.

-In 1200 Ban Kulin is  threatened by the Pope that he will  call crusade against the rise of the religion that is practiced in Bosnia, Kulin Ban urges Pope's envoy to convince him that from now preaches in Bosnia will be only in "Catholic spirit" however it was only a trick, because the Bosnian church just got even more support in bosnian upper class.
So they are not in war in 1200 with no one.
War started in 1235 and it end's after 3 years.
Crusaders done some  robbery, but nothing more  significant.

-No Heraldry informations about family or unit's  in  Bosnia in that time. (until 1280)
http://tinypic.com/r/33xhiex/7 some heraldry from 1280+

- About army: Bosnian army was identified by taking tactics, military structures and  weapons from Illyrians.The only differences were the Bosnian knights. They ware so called "bosnian sword", today  is known as a claymore, they did not have armored horses and they worn light armor at that time.

Bow was smaller, but from it they could launch a large number of arrows for a little time, just take the rest of the equipment from the Illyrians with small additions. Arrows were not used on horses, as there is no  historical evidence for that.

[Hrobatos]

Ilyrians?

(click to show/hide)

havent you heard that after roman conquest of Ilyria and romanization in language, culture AND military Slavs settled in Balkans? even in Bosnia...
be serious dude, Bosnians at the time did not looked like Ilyrians


I posted pics from stećaks which show medieval Bosnians, and they are certainly different from ancient Ilyrians
too bad Dabar didnt included those pics when he quoted my posts...


and bow indeed was smaller, as it was curved bow, yet again I tell you, look at the stećaks, bows are shown there so we know how they looked like


you probably mean schiavonesca sword? this sword is from much later period, and was used in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia
Venetians got it from Croats, and called it schiavonesca which means slavic sword
the Venetian Doge guard was compromised at the time from Croats from Dalmatia and they brought the sword into Venice in 14. and 15 century
http://www.arts-swords.com/item/DT-DT5152.asp

[Mix]

Bosnia certainly did not controled coastal regions in 1200, as I alredy said, Bosnia now is n Bosnia proper before
it spreaded on Croatian and Serb ethnic teritories so maps are accurate

here is another map, pink and orange is Bosnia at 1200, the yellow are teritories conquered in mid 14. century and blue in 15. century
http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/66/Bosna.jpg




the Bosnian church was not bogomil, if anyone really cares, John Fine, foreign historian interested in Balkans history wrote
book The Bosnian church
and since ban Kulin  basicly made pope believe that they are faithful to Catholic church, they should be made as such to avoid
 as historicly any kind of religious wars



I dont think Neretvania was held by Serbia at the time since second half of 12. and whole 13. century is time of the greatest power
of Neretvania and Croatian noble family Kačići which ruled it
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%C4%8Di%C4%87i

they also controled southern islands on Croatian coast

If you are talking about land around river Neretva you are wrong. In 1200 it was comtroled  by Serbia - Rascia as map of Drevni is showing. It was part of Serbia up until late 13 century when its occupied by family Subic and finaly in 14 century by Bosnians.

[Hrobatos]

that map shows Omiš as border town of Croatia and Serbia in time of greatest power of Kačić family, if they had no other possesions than Omiš
itself they couldnt be that powerful

which reminds me, on what is that map based? from which sources did you came that Serbia held Neretvania all the way to Omiš?