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  1. SP Antiquity Peloponnesian War Mod!

    I am not going to reply in kind to Damien's incoherent rambling, because it would lead this to the mudpit. Suffice to say, I won't be participating to anything here, because Damien seems to be representative of a bunch of ill mannered half-knowledgeable smartasses ...the local Gestapo kind of.
    I was trying to provide some help, I wasn't questioning anyone's knowledge (which I could easily do, as in the first pages there was an enormous amount of bull regarding terms, names and concepts). I just offered some of my expertise and a smartass comes up and questions not me, but top notch military history and ancient Greek history experts like Georgios Steinhauer, M.C. Amuretti, J.B. Bury, Russwel Meiggs, M. Sage - not to mention the primary sources, Herodotus, Xenophon, Polybius, Plutarch and a host of others. And without providing a single source, too.
    That's it, I am out of here. Cheers and have fun with your little nazi-act.
  2. SP Antiquity Peloponnesian War Mod!

    No, none of it. It aimed at Damien.
  3. SP Antiquity Peloponnesian War Mod!

    Damien,

    half knowledge is not too good a councel, I might say. and it's worst than no knowledge at all, because it leads to arrogance and cockyness.  I am Greek, I am a pro in the military history field and I most certainly know what I am talking about. But I fear there are too many rude, ungreatful people here who just try to (in your words) bust people's balls, instead of appreciating their hard work.

    I am not absolutely certain about the machaera,but there are plenty of references in xenophon about machera interchangable with xiphos and a couple other authors are clearly writing machaera where they could write xiphos. True, it has been used to describe a kopis, but it also has been used to describe most other swords. Same with the word xiphos. The only word that has been used only for it's specific design is the word "kopis". The small (much smaller than kopis) sword that you are probably confusing with the Machaera, is called Machaerion, and I actually forgot to add it in my list. Machaera, practically, means any short sword.

    also, kopis was indeed used mostly by the cavalry in the Greek area and before Alexander. Read xenophon and check the bloody vases. Apparently, a number of Alexander foot troops used kopis as their secondary weapon, although the sources are very confusing generally about the armament of Alexandros' men. Do not confuse Greece with Italy and Spain, where the falcata was used extensively by foot troops, or with Achaemenid Persia, where the akinaka (a similar design) was also used mostly by footmen.

    The existence of linothorax cannot be challenged because many ancient sources talking about warfare, are reffering to them. Also, the suggestion that the linothorax is not what the name says, is rather silly. There is a clear distinction between linothorax and spolas, so it's definitely not a leather vest (not to mention that linos means precisely linen... duh!). The two references I remember right now are from Arryan (Alexander) and Polybius (Iphikrates). Xenophon is probably also talking about linothorakes (plural of linothorax) but I am not absolutely certain.

    the bit about the lakonian xiphos is so extremely wrong... read Herodotus, read Xenophon and then come to the archeological museums here and check what exactly the lakonian sword is. Duh!

    Much to your dismay, thorax is the standard designation for body armour

    Skythian and Korinthian IN GREEK (a language you clearly not posses) are written with "K", there is no "C" in modern, Koene or ancient Greek.

    Well, since I've already done some work to contribute to this project, here it goes. I won't be adding anything past this, as I see some peeps here are real arses.

    http://tovima.dolnet.gr/data/D2005/D0605/v1abc8d.gif
    typical molossian (epirote) xiphos (of the short variant)_

    http://graphipedia.squares.net/image/Weapon/Sword/Xiphos.jpg
    xiphidion

    http://www.4hoplites.com/Aichme.jpg
    tips (aichme) of dorata (the plural of Dory)

    http://www.4hoplites.com/Sarouters.jpg
    buttspikes (sauroteres) of dorata

    http://www.4hoplites.com/Kopis.jpg
    various kopides (plural of kopis)

    http://www.4hoplites.com/Xiphos.jpg
    long xiphi (plural of xiphos)

    http://www.hellenicclub.com.au/images/artifacts/090_HC.jpg
    replica of Spartan xiphos (practically a xiphidion)

    http://www.xlegio.ru/artilery/gastraphetes.jpg
    gastraphetes

    by the machera I guess you are referring to something like this
    http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Styles.htm
    those are modern designs though and they don't even come from Greece (or even the region).

    The supposed machaera in this site
    www.swords.co.nz/ancient.html
    is most certainly not a machaera, but clearly a kopis (as you can see by previous pictures). Not even a machaerion.
  4. SP Antiquity Peloponnesian War Mod!

    This will be my all time super-favorite mod, I guarantee that. But there seems to be a confusion regarding the offensive and defensive gear, so I'll contribute some data (I am a military history professional and my area of specialization lies precisely in ancient greece)Q

    - swords
    xiphos - the standard greek sword. Straight, double edged, about 55-70 cms long. The Lakonian (spartan) version of the xiphos is much shorter (like 40-50 cm. long).  A longer xiphos was used in the 4th century BC (up to 80 cm. long). The Lakonian sword was sometimes referred to as "xiphidion"
    kopis - the curved, mostly used by cavalry (and the later macedonian footmen) falchion-like sword. Single-edged, about 60 to 70 cms long
    machera - refers either to a straight, xiphos-like sword, or (more commonly) to a very large knife (like 40-45 cm in length).
    Parazonion (or parazoonion) - dagger

    - Spears
    Dory - the standard hoplite spear. About 2 to 2.5 meters long, with a buttspike and a leaf-shaped tip.
    Sarissa - the phalangite pike. About 5 to 6.4 m. long, huge tip, big buttspike
    Xyston - the typical cavalry spear, ranging from 2.5 to 3 m. long, complete with buttspike
    hippiki (cavalry) sarissa - the cavalry version of the sarissa, same as above but up to 4 m. long
    Palto - the typical dual role (javelin/spear) weapon of the cavalry of the Peloponesian war era. About 1.5 m. long, could be either thrown or used as a spear.
    Grosphos - the typical javelin of the period. Up to 1.5 meters (usually shorter). Also called "Hyssos" and sometimes "Aechme" (the latter is not very popular, and most of times would refer to just the tip)
    Kondos  (or Kontos) - this comes into use in the later hellenistic period and would designate a lance, although it was used also for long (but shorter than sarissas) spears
    Doration - light, short (less than 1.80 in length and with a small tip) spear

    - Cuirasses
    Thorax - the typical metallic cuirass, made of bronze
    Linothorax - padded linen thorax, very popular from the 370s BC and on. Came also in luxurious varieties (with plenty of metallic addons for greater protection)
    Spolas - hardened or padded leather, extremely popular in all times, was the standard defensive gear for the light troops

    - Helmets
    Pilos (also refered to as "Lakonikos pilos") - a bronze or iron helmet, shaped like a felt hat. The same name applies to a felt hat
    (the rest of the names are modern, because the ancients didn't seem to have had particular designations)
    Korinthian helmet - the typical hoplite badass helmet that covers fully the face (save eyes and mouth)
    Illyrian helmet - same shape as Korinthian, but does have a large opening in front and leaves the face exposed
    Boeotian helmet - a very different helmet, the one used by Alexander's companions
    Phrygian helmet (think of Alexander's foot companions)
    Causia - the typical hat of the Macedonian greeks (I guess you are including hats as well)

    - Shields
    "Hoplon" (or aspis) - the typical hoplite shield. 90 cm to 1.10 m. wide, wood coated with three or more layers of bronze, or even (in some occassions) fully of bronze (great protection the latter, but VERY heavy)
    Pelte - the light, crescent shaped shield from Thrace, later it meant all the light shields (sometimes even the shield of the Macedonian pezheteroi was called "pelte", besides aspis)
    Thureos - Oval shaped shield, modeled after the Galatic designs (was used in the 3rd century BC and on in Greece)

    - Other
    gastraphetes - a primitive form of the crossbow (or, more likely, the arbalest). Was held and fired from the belly level ("gastros" is the belly).
    romphaea - the dacian/thracian falx, in it's greek incarnation.
    Toxon - the bow
    toxon persiko - the Persian bow, significantly better than the early (5th century) Greek designs
    toxon skythiko - the skythian bow, a powerful composite bow, the weapon of choice for the famous Cretan Archers. The Cretans came up with a variant of the skythian bow, the "toxon kritiko", that was even more effective.

    This is from the top of my head. If you need any further info, just tell me. Good luck with this project, it's great.

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