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Spears kinda suck but having to switch weapons isn't one of the reasons why. As much as I hate to use this phrase, this is pretty much just a matter of "git gud".

What's wrong with the english version?

Younes said:

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What are you trying to say?? Yes, it was done by modders in Warband as I already agreed regardless of the fact whether TW didn't know how to do that or just didn't care enough. Exactly the same thing with TW having problems earlier with BL custom servers while modders already did that. Either lack of know-how or resources put into that.

Younes said:

Also deployable pavise shields were a thing for the longest time in modded warband. There is no technical difficulty for either couching or pavise shields, it's just TW that does not want to add it.

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Techical difficulties ***at the time***, be it because of lack of interest or just lack of know-how. I'm very much aware that later on modders did this.

Younes said:

Same for this suggestion, you're asking too much of a suggestion to TW, anyone who played long enough will know that the only suggestion that will make it past the devs is a +2 or -2 balance change to a 98 swing speed weapon.

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Let a man dream.

Very fun idea! Though this would most probably be a mod or a game mode inside another mod like dunno, cRPG or something.

Younes said:

If even warband did not have it considering the years it was ahead in the lore timeline, i doubt bannerlord would have it.

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Pikes/spears also weren't couchable in Warband (apart from NW bayonets iirc). Does that mean that BL shouldn't have it either? No really, there is really no point excluding something like this for "lore reasons". Also, pretty sure the reason they weren't working in WB were either technical difficulties on part of TW at the time, and/or general disinterest in introducing it to gameplay.

Brandis. said:

Neither of those games are balanced for top tier competitive play.

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Smash bros ultimate is balanced for competitive play tho. ? Didn't read the discussion tho so I'm just shouting things from the back row.

flashn00b said:

I'm pretty sure i've mentioned that an all archer team needs to put in a lot less effort for their wins compared to a team that has a nice balance between inf/archer/cav.

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You're saying a full archer team will win against full heavy inf rush or Inf+cav?

If the infantry have played more than five hours of MP then that doesn't happen does it? Pretty much every single shield covers all shots from the front. If you all have shields, the archers can't do pretty much anything. When you get into melee, the fight is over if you're not playing with a noob team against some 5k+ hour Warband melee gods.

If everyone had spears, why would anyone pick cav?
If everyone also had shields, why would anyone pick archers?
If everyone also had bows/other ranged, why would anyone in their right mind pick a 2-hander class?

Now that 4/4 slots have been taken (spear, shield, ranged weapon+ammo), you can't get a proper melee weapon. If we had 5 slots, you would also get a good 1-hander and then everyone would have everything and there is one unfun, unrealistic, minmax build with no point.

+1 As a crossbow enthusiast, I would definitely like that.

Archers have the ability to move while reloading, making it extremely hard to duel them with a crossbow if you don't have cover yourself and the archer can aim/predict at least decently. Also, in BL you can shoot relatively accurately while moving thanks to some of the archer perks. Having a deployable shield isn't anything too crazy.

The Mercenaries MP mod did this in Warband (and possibly/likely cRPG, can't remember). It wasn't broken at all or anything. Just some flavor to playing crossbowman and a way to make them not entirely useless in long range, open field engagements.

Another way to do this could be that the reload animation is changed while having a pavise shield. The crossbowman would turn around and crouch while reloading, while having the shield on his back towards the enemy. Alternatively, the animation would be tweaked only very little, so that the shield on the back moves to a good spot for blocking arrows, while the player has to turn away from the enemy himself if he wants to block the arrows. This would be a fun, unique way to play a crossbowman. Bannerlord even has this system where the shield blocks some hits when it's on your back.

I've even tried how well it works for arrows, but it's not too strong and will interrupt the reloading animation. Giving it a small buff so it will take the full hits, or for balance, drop the damage from arrows to something low enough so it doesn't stagger. This would allow for protection from some arrows from long range without giving you god mode vs. say, 5 archers constantly hammering you with shots from near you.

Jesus__is__Lord said:

just reduce arrow damage to heavy armor(or only infantry heavy armor) that way infantry can concentrate on melee instead of getting 3 shotted by tier 2 bows

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You mean tier 2 as in heavy archers or tier 2 as in the SP low tier archers? This is an MP thread so I'm confused rn.
If you mean the light archers (similar to SP tier 2 archers), fair enough.
But if you mean the heavy archers, then making the bows/xbows kill with more than 3 shots will just make them utterly useless. Having to land more than three shots is unreliable af when you're supposed to be actually helping the team, say, in battle mode. If you're going to be dealing 20 damage per shot you might aswell just pick literally any other class and be more useful. Most players have shields and you can't even hit them from the front at that point. As I said, it'd just make ranged literally useless "stagger"-dealing bots at best.

flashn00b said:

24 armor will still shrug off most cut weapons

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What? It just doesn't does it? A crossbowman with only 24 armor will get absolutely minced by some heavy infantry.

flashn00b said:

with the heavy inf likely the only thing that has the best chances of surviving a single Arbalest hit.

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The arbalest doesn't have any chance of one-shotting a heavy infantryman. Pretty sure the only way is if the enemy rides at you with some speed and you land a headshot. It does like 80 damage to even enemy light archers at medium-long range.

flashn00b said:

The realistic scenario is that a heavy infantry would be wounded by the time he closes in on the Sharpshooter

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Possibly, but not by the sharpshooter if he has a shield. In a melee fight a heavy inf is way superior. If you think "24 armor will still shrug off most cut weapons" then what does the heavy inf's 50-something armor do? According to that logic, the sharpshooter's sword would keep bouncing off the heavy inf's armor.

flashn00b said:

I'm pretty sure that all light archers have a similar amount of armor save for the Khan's Guard

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What? Khan's Guard is a heavy archer class.

flashn00b said:

It's just that every other archer needs to aim for the head for their one-hit-kill whereas the Vlandian heavy archer doesn't.

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Sharpshooter still doesn't just one-shot everything... Plus archers can walk while reloading, which gives them an advantage vs. crossbowmen.

flashn00b said:

Vlandia's heavy archer can one-hit bodyshot most things in the game, and has enough armor to forgive a decent amount of mistakes in melee combat.

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It can't one-hit bodyshot even the peasant classes right now I think. On heavy troops (heavy inf/archers) it's something along 3-4hit on body depending on range and relative speed.

flashn00b said:

most things in the game

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And we're talking about MP here right?

flashn00b said:

The upcoming nerfs to blunt weapons will likely make the Sharpshooter even more immortal than before.

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You can pretty much 2-3 hit a sharpshooter depending on the melee weapon. The massive 2hander axes can oneshot them I'm pretty sure.
Also, saying that the sharpshooter is "immortal" is the biggest stretch I've heard in a while. It's literally the heavy archer class with the least armor (24/33) along with the battanian fiann.

Did you know:
You can use a shield to counter archers 80% of the time. If it's a 1v1 and you're infantry, you've already got a big advantage since they literally can't hit you with their bow due to the massive coverage of shields. At that point, you will run at the archer and then it's a melee fight between an infantryman and an archer. Though I see a lot of newer players who block in random directions with their shield and get hit with arrows from the front when they use sideways blocks instead of downblock. You literally can't get hit in a 1v1 otherwise.

When it comes to a 1vX situation, of course the outnumbering party has an advantage. Though the advantage is the same if the enemy is all infantry. It might even be way harder. The enemy archers have to be really careful not to shoot their teammate. Even if FF is off, their teammate will block arrows for you. Also the movement between two duellers sometimes makes it hard to predict where to aim. Now if they all are infantry, they can just run at you and spam you to death while bodyblocking some of your swings to glance off of their bodies.

The only balancing issue with archers is IMO the armor value of (especially khan's guard with 38 without even a heavy armor perk) heavy archers. Otherwise they aren't really that great.

Archers are fine apart from the heavy archer classes having a bit too much armor imo (looking at especially you, Khuzait khan's guard with rediculous base armor of 38. Of course some weapon options are also a bit questionable, but nothing too broken or crazy.

Got some very similar ideas right here my dude:

Olaf The Cruel said:

I have 1-2 ideas my self on how to punish those expert cav players!

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I forgot so remind me, since when was couching helpless AI an achievement? Also, 99% of rambos are utter trash in melee.

Agree with pretty much every single point made. Light infantry should be made faster. Heavy infantry's role shouldn't be just to be *better* infantry. They should have their own advantages and disadvantages.
Light infantry should imo be fast and flexible to suit a variety of situations. Maybe three main build being full melee, anti-cav spear, and maybe javs to have mild skirmishing potential.
I also like the idea of dividing light archers to be a bit more about kiting and peppering enemies with low damage arrows, and heavy archers about long range sniping and melee capability.

My biggest problem (apart from ramboing and other AI abuse) is with how skirmishers are handled in captain right now. Javelins don't really do damage, are unresponsive and extremely inaccurate when used by bots. Imo the skirmishers should have 1-5 javelins depending of type and build and the damage and responsiveness of the javs should be ramped up majorly. Also they are pretty much crawling now while pretty much the only time they can get even 1 kill with the javelins is when they can get behind an enemy. They are just unplayable. Maybe also give them *bonus against shields* on their javs so they can be used to soften shield infantry for your allies by breaking some of their shields. Very fast, with very high damage with pretty short range and limited ammo.

Zarthas said:

2. Ignore the Rambo. Do not engage the cavalry at all while you chasing the infantry. They want to delay and string out your troops.

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And let this rambo keep 1-2 shotting your troops who can't block or even pretty much attack the rambo if not equipped with spears and in charge mode, in which case the bots will scatter and get deleted by archers.

Zarthas said:

4. Use the Facing Commands to ensure your troops are looking and moving in the correct direction while pursuing. The rambo will attempt to slow you down by getting your formation to pivot to him. Don't let him.

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The single bots will still turn when the rambo is close to them even though the unit doesn't turn. Doesn't even have to be right next to the bots to turn them.

Zarthas said:

5. You can't use Archers if there's a Glaive rambo on the field, sorry. You just can't. I don't recommend archers with Rambo at all.

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I guess then TW should remove archers altogether since abusing AI is the new meta, sorry! You're really suggesting that "don't play a class at all if one of the enemies picks this class". Seriously?

Zarthas said:

A pike Square with some collision mesh hazards is very hard for a Rambo to get into and they will eventually make a mistake.

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Bold of you to assume the bots hit enemy cav players with their weapons reliably if not in charge mode.

Zarthas said:

Kill any and all riderless horses you see on the map.
If you unhorse the Rambo and there are horses around, shoot them so they run off.

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But you still can't really use archers when there's rambo cav? Or does oathsworn have AK47s now?

Zarthas said:

When you manage to unhorse a Rambo, just ignore him. He's harmless on foot. Killing him brings another horse into play. You need the time it takes him to find another horse more than you need the kill.

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Well he can still sit behind your units and make them turn and hit the sidemost units of the line from behind. The bots can't counter that at all. When you go hit him he will probably turtle behind his shield and backpedal around to maximize the time he's abusing your unit's AI. If you press charge you will just scatter your units again and turn their backs on the enemies.

Zarthas said:

Empire in particular struggles against Rambo cav since they have no Pikes and their spear unit has a relatively low unit count. Expect to not win Empire vs. Rambo.

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Also, don't play this faction if the enemy uses this one single "tactic". Yeah lemme quickly choose the faction I play as.


I really can't believe how some people still try to tell me that ramboing is a "tactic" and not straight up cheesing. It forces you to play in one single way every game and it's just tedious af when Captain mode is 99% about babysitting your unit from cheesers and infantry blobbing.

jon01 said:

Meanwhile, take a look at the same-ness of the bots in Captains:



And, honestly, the mechanics of cavalry in MP is probably among the least realistic M&B has ever been.

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Amazing, of all the soundtracks you could've chosen, you chose to have Pokémon Stadium's magikarp splash minigame sounds on the background.

You truly are a man of uttermost culture.