Recent content by Suzerain

Sir William the Brave said:

I don't know if this true or not but I heard that you can forge a sword by pouring the melted metal into a block.
But from my knowledge by watching a man forging a sword in youtube. I think the technique above must been around 18-19th centuries. Rather than Middle age.

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Casting a sword by pouring into a block is absolute fiction.


Except for bronze swords, between 3000 and 600BC; those you do cast in a mould.

for a steel sword, however, casting is a complete fantasy, and utterly impractical, for a whole host of reasons. the biggest of those is simply that the medieval forges were not capable of getting hot enough to melt steel to a liquid - you could get it hot enough that you could move it around under a hammer, but you cold'nt pour it. The best you could do  for poured metal was cast iron, which is liquid at a lower temperature, but cast iron is a terrible, brittle material for blades - it would just break if used for that.

the only way to make a sword* is through forging, heating up the metal to a glowing red-yellow heat, and hammering it out from the rough block into a blade shape.

basic processes for making a swordblade are:

smelting: a large volume of iron ore is placed into a bloomery - a sort of kiln-like furnace where the iron is extracted, as a spongy metallic mass called a bloom.
that is then refined in a finery, a process of heating and hammering out to convert the spongy metal into a bar of iron, and squeeze out as much as possible of the impurity.
Iron containes carbon in its molecular structure - too much carbon makes pig iron, or wrought iron. too little makes a pure iron, which is of limited use too. but a small amount of carbon makes the iron struture much stronger and harder - what we call steel.  Medieval smiths did'nt realise this however, and instead thought that steel was a purer form of iron.

So, the iron bars would be Carburised in a funace, heating them up to burn away some of the carbon content, and working them into steel  This si a time-consuming process which made the steel much more expensive than the simpler-to-make wrought irons that have not been carburised.

These steel ingots would then be sold and exported from the foundries. Steel ingots are a very valuable resource in the medieval age, and were used very sparingly - a knife, for example, would be made from a cheap iron back, with a small strip of steel forge-welded onto it for the cutting edge, saving the amount of steel used. 
 
Good steel ingots would then be bought by the blade-makers from the foundries, to be used in production of blades.  In medieval europe this was done in a number of areas - particularly the cities of Solingen and Passau, but also in areas like Brescia in Italy, and later on Toledo in Spain.  The secrets of bladesmithing were guarded jealously and passed on amongst guilds of swordsmiths and cutlers (who made knives). the average blacksmith in a village simply did not have the skills to make swordblades. The guilds vigorously protected the right to produce blades as a monopoly, and would come down heavily on any rivals trying to get in on their territory. Like the armourers, the cutlers and swordsmiths were not the lone blacksmith of fiction, hammering away by hand in thier lonely smithy. these were large factories with hammers and forges powered by waterwheels connected to belt-driven wheels and bellows, and churning out dozens of blades every day.
These blades were shipped out along the rivers to the whole of europe, where they were then hilted up in local popular fashions. Mass production is not a modern concept at all. Italian armourers of the 15th C were producing equipment on production lines where the only difference to what Henry Ford made up 400 years later was that instead of a conveyor belt, the peices were moved by hand by the apprentice boy...

But, assuming for narrative, you've got a one-off blade being made, this is the rough process.

the blade starts as an ingot or billet of steel - perhaps 20cm long, by 5cm wide, by 5cm thick.
that gets popped into a forge, and heated till it glows, and then hammered, usually either by a power hammer - a huge water-wheel driven hammer, or by a team of two or even three people with heavy sledges - the master would hold the billet in tongs, and would move it around, while his assistant(s) or apprentice(s) would swing the hammers to pound it out.
that process would see the ingot slowly shaped out, making the billet longer and thinner, a process called drawing out that drawing out would slowly shape the blade into a long, thin bar of steel. at that point it would start to be profiled, shaping it more to become a blade-like shape. at the same time the tang would be forged, where the blade's shoulders were shaped and the long stalk which would become the handle was drawn out.
at that point, the blade's taper would be forged into it, making it narrower towards the tip, and moving mass away from the end. at the same point, the start of the cross-section of the blade would be worked. in the 15th C that was most commonly a diamond section -  sort of a <> shape, with a strong mid-ridge that made the blade stiff.  some blades, particularly those being designed for the cutting of unarmoured targets would be forged with a broad groove down the middle, called the Fuller. This would be done by using a special tool piece added onto the anvil called a swage block, and a profiled hammer, to forge in the basic line of the groove along the blade.

when this was done, you have a forged blade shape, black from the forge, that's pretty much the shape of your blade.
this would then be heated up till it was a consistent glowing yellow heat,  and then pulled from the forge, and quenched in a liquid - usually water or brine, but sometimes oil, and in the medieval era, perhaps something more exotic - with the science behind it being unknown, the process was somewhat mystical and secretive, so other material might be used. despite what "conan" showed, snow is'nt a very good quenching material - its actually quite a good insulator, so does'nt work. The quench was done to cool the blade down rapidly - a secret of the swordsmith's art for making hard blades that a common blacksmith was unlikely to be aware of. The result of a quench is to change the molecular structure of the blade, making it extremely hard.  However, with hardness the blade can become brittle, so the second step was to make it softer and more springy, and less likely to break. This process, of tempering the blade would be done by cleaning up the blade to remove the black fire-scale that had amassed in the forging process, leaving clean metal. it would then be slowly heated up again, to a lower temperature, and then left to cool back down naturally. there were a number of ways that this could be done - it could be returned to the forge, and gently heated so when the metal sharted to change colour from metallic silver, to a brown, and then a vivid blue tint, it could be withdrawn from the heat and left to cool - or for blades with fullers, two small bars of metal could be heated till they glowed, and placed below and on top of the blade, to conduct heat into it from the middle of the blade, and again, left to cool.  Either way, the resultant blade would be more springy and less brittle, making it more usable as a weapon.

this blade blank would then be ground on a grindstone - a large 1m diameter wheel, sometimes water-powered, sometimes hand-cranked by the poor assistant, which would run through a trough of water to keep the stone and the blade cool. it would then be ground, and slowly shaped from the blade blank into a fully made blade. it would be rubbed with pumice stone to smooth the surface out further, and then with powdered pumice till it eventualyl became a polished gleaming blade.

the blade would then be either sold and exported by a merchant to another part of the world, or if being made there, would be handed off to another craftsman, the cutler, who would make the hilt parts -in a european sword, consisting of the cross, hilt and pommel, to protect the hand, to grip, and to counterbalance the blade respectively. Those would be made according to local fashions of the customer - would prefer different shapes, or proportions.  They would normally be made by forging iron ingot peices, drawing out to a bar for the cross, and peirced with a punch to fit down the tang, then shaped by files and forging to fit exactly. The hilt would be made from hardwood - beech, ash, or poplar, either bored through with a hole, and then burned out to match the shape of the tang, or carved out of two peices to fit around the tang. that would then be carved and worked to shape for the hand and then bound in fine cord, then wrapped in thin leather.  the pommel would be worked at the same time as the cross, shaped by forging, and then peirced with a drift, shaped to match the tang.
the whole thing would then be peined over, heating the end of the tang to allow it to be locked toght like a rivet.

at that point, you've got a sword. That's before you go into the woodworking and leather coverings for a scabbard and swordbelt you'd also need.

See why they were often quite high-status equipment, with all the work that goes into making them?   









*at least, using medieval technology. nowadays, you could make it by grinding from a billet of steel - but even that's been shaped out by huge heavy rollers, which do the same sort of job as a forging hammer would've done before.

Yamabusi said:

At least you did'nt give them blue facepaint. 

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You mean something like here?)
http://yfrog.com/dy2488932510040330339razwj

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Nyargh. Yes. Exactly like that...
Because that very bloke, (who always stands on the Royal Mile in edinburgh, and who we cringe at every time we walk up there) was pretty much the exact stereotype I was thinking of when I referred to blue facepaint.

And since there were a few comments about my reaction, yes, I know that Yamabusi was aware of the 17th C date of that style - and what he's created are gorgeous models.  I'm well aware of the fact he was'nt aiming for medieval scots.
my only complaint is that inevitably, in mount and blade's medieval era setting, others will assume that they are how medieval scots appeared, perpetuating the myths.

LordOfShadows said:

In the medieval era you couldn't, unless you were rich, get weapons from a foreign country.

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Utter nonsense.

the large majority of yew used for english bows during the wars of the roses, for example, was imported from spain and portugal.

blades were mass-produced in solingen, passau, brescia, and similar places. Armour was produced enmasse in Augsburg, Innsbruck, and Milan among other places.
swordblades were shipped throughout europe from their place of manufacture, stored in boxes of barrels, and mounted up with hilts that fitted local fashion, be that scotland and norway, spain or portugal, greece or Jerusalem.
there was a vast and wide-ranging trade infrastructure in place throughout the medieval era, and long before that ensured the spread of trade goods over a far larger range of space than you might expect.

Yamabusi said:

Greetings, friends!
Here some models of highlanders that I have made.

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Lovely models. they look great.

Its just a shame they contribute to the ignorance of what the highland scots looked like in the 13th/14th C.  ( a pet hate of mine, I'm afraid)
At least you did'nt give them blue facepaint. 

http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/images/l/369776/
and
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/images/l/368637/

show how they would've really looked...  if you go and model stuff like that, I would love it.

Getting the same here too.

flashes up "WARNING:CHECK INVALID ENTITY" repeatedly then crashes or hangs.

has been stable till now.

Nah... Porn isn't fun for me anymore after I found M&B...

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may I sugest you try looking for appropriate material online then? Try the Wallace Collection's online catalogue. if that's not sword and armourporn, nothing is. 

you know in some ways, time is too fast, too.

you start off as no-body, and in 100 days you're thegreatest sword/axe/bow-man/woman in the entire nation?
hrm. I wish I could be that good at training....

What I'd like to see, is time to pass faster, so it takes longer to travel from city to city - currently, it feels to me either that that's not a horse I'm on, but a 4wd land rover, or the cities are only 5 miles apart...

I'd also like to see sleep - armies getting exhausted if they force-march through the nights, and thus being weaker, which would make it beneficial to set camp, and pass the nights, making time pass faster, and thus making buildings complete quicker too.

But I'd also like to see improvements that are'nt quite so slow... small stuff like "build pallisades" around a village to protect from raiding armies might only take 4-5 days, not months. Little things, for little rewards, that all build up.

Naroghin said:

Naval powers is also a good idea; however, I would hate to see this turn into another "Voyage Century Online (ugh)".  While it would add yet another amazing dynamic or career choice to the game, adding naval warfare would be time consuming and difficult.  That said, I already stated that anything that is difficult can come just as this game itself has come so far.  It's good to look back and see progress, but it's better to look forward and see potential.  But I digress; branching out into the sea to expand the map would be an excellent idea and would add so much to the game.

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Aaaactuallly...
(I say, slowly as the idea impacts into my brain cell at the speed of molasses...)

Naval combat might not be too impossible, if you were to have ship-to-ship battles.
You have no cannon, so ships will likely be war longships or trade knarr, or slightly later cogs, maybe galleys.
Aside from the cog, they're all oar-powered. No cannon means no manouvering to get onto the T of the other ship, and wind is less of an issue...

So it's perfectly plausible to say that you might be able to set up a custom map that is just water, maybe a coastline to the side, and the battle is the boarding, with both ships having been caught by grappling hooks, and being pulled slowly together...
maybe 60 seconds of slowly being dragged close, cogs  and then the ships connect, soldiers clash either by gangplanks and convenient gaps, or in the case of cogs, by having archers in towers.

Battle concludes same as any other battle.

sorted.

Possible? maybe.
 

Gerin said:

I agree, no guns.  Those that want guns can run to a mod, or play COD. 

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Not 100% convinced there. I can see very early guns (gonnes) of the matchlock "tube on a stick" type working - very slow firing, more damaging than a crossbow.  I can see cannon or bombards in seiges making a rather spectacular image. I'd love to see them, with battlfields with smoke drifting over them from cannons having fired.

But rapid-firing flintlocks or muskets, artillery, machineguns, pistols, etc, I would agree would be sucky.

What I'd like to see?

Techncial:
Engine lighting that allows normal maps on characters, not just statics.
HDRI with DOF and improved graphics.

Art
Heavily improved art direction - you've got some fantastic artists, their skill is evident, but the art direction is weak - as a lead artist for a dev studio, I would be happy to offer consultancy services on this. (plug, plug )
Redesign of icon system for inventories to a pre rendered icon instead of 3d rendered model - allows a much more dynamic UI and allows graphic design improvements.
Redesign of UI for clarity. World map including a physical parchment "map" that can be viewed to look at assets, control tactics, etc

Setting:
Either real-world, or calradia.  But slightly later or slightly earlier - 100, maybe 200 years at most, 950-1050 norman conquest/collapse of calradian empire, 1350-1450 era. early renaissance.

Game content:
Much more depth of objects, items, NPCs, etc, to give the world life.
A world map that's got a bit more context - Roads, more subtle rivers and water-flow.
Far more weapon and armour models - ideally, armour as more separate parts (Vanbrace, Rerebrace and pauldrons, Greaves, Lames, Main harness (or just breastplate), Helm?) 
Ability to organise more formations in battle.

Gameplay content
Modular mission editor to allow it to be much easier to create characters and mission scripts

Exhaustion - simply riding non-stop through the night will wear out you and your troops, making them much less effective. This will also have the effect of making the map feel much bigger. The same applies to AI - ambush camps of bandits as they sleep...

Property - the ability to buy a house in a city, to work out of instead of renting a tavern for 100 troops.

Mercenary contracts - the ability to negotiate fees to ride as part of an army as a mercenary - fees, of flat rate, all negotiated based on your trade and persuasion skills.

Diplomacy - much more non-combat elements to allow a player to broker alliances and trade deals, to become a courier or envoy for kings, gaining trust - or being a double agent...

Sieges - ability to do much more vicious siege warfare, and also to sneak in and sabotage. More choice "Assemble trebuchet - Dig Sapping mines - deploy Bombards"  " "build ladders - build ram - build siege towers" "Launch collected heads - Launch carcasses - launch burning pitch" "Spare the citizens - kill the men - massacre the population" and so on.

Empire-building - Ability to become a faction in your own right. As you take over more of the map, the ability to assign cities and towns to your generals. Some Generals have "home" areas, and will be happier in their homes - some cities will be happier if a local general is governor, instead of a foreigner. As factions are destroyed, rebels remain in the hills or forests. cities may sometimes rebel if unhappy.

Ability to develop cities, and their infrastructure - "build roads to villages", "build mines" "build fort - build castle - build citadel" "build palisade wall - build curtain wall - build defensive towers - build great wall" "raise taxes" "lower taxes" "hang criminals" "pardon criminals"  "subsidise merchants"  "form guilds" "ban guilds" "establish militia - establish city watch - train city watch - Establish castle guards - establish praetorian guard"

Ability to develop castles - maybe even ability to build new castles. "dig defensive ditch - build earthen wall - build wooden palisade - build wooden keep - build stone keep -  build stone walls - build towers - build barbican - build curtain wall" and castle improvements "build dungeon, build great hall" "build mantlets" "build granary" "build stables" "build armoury"

More non-combat NPC companions, who can be housed in castles or cities - seneschals who will run the city in your absence, engineers who will prepare seige engines for you to take on campaign, artisans who will improve your cities and make the populace happier.

More Trade NPCs with specialists - Armour split into leather and metal armourers, merchants dealing in spices or fabrics, clothiers, swordsmiths and carpenters. Specialists giving the opportunity to have your armour comissioned - costs more, slight bonus as it fits perfectly


Storyline elements
A sandbox is all well and good, but sometimes, it needs a little impetus - I'd like to see more narrative elements in places - multi-part missions given by NPCs, which paint a picture of the world, and their plots, more elements where you know that X and Y are fighting, and finding that Z is goading them on for their own end...
stuff that takes the sandbox and gives it a little push - much like GTA is an open world, but there are missions you can complete as you play through, but you dont have to take part in them if you dont want to.


That's a big list, but please dont think I'm panning M&B as it is... it's fantastic.
But I know you have the ability to do better.

Congratulations. to every one of you who's worked on the project.

I know exactly how you feel just now.... Exhausted, probably. Elated, definitely. Savour this moment, it'll stay with you for many years to come.

As far as I know, you don't have a physical studio, so seeing this launch from a distributed developer network has raised a smile from me, as it is two fingers up to the "need 100million and a studio the size of an aircraft hangar" school of game design. There's a lot of areas that could be done better, granted, but what you have done is a superb job, and each one of you should be proud.

Take your holidays with the knowledge that you've done a good job.

I look forward to hearing what your next project will be....

fantastic.... I might actualyl start to use shields as they're meant to be.

now, if only we could have a "kick in the bollocks" button and a "get in close and force them over" action, the combat would be nicely brutal and more realistic

Archonsod said:

Naridill said:

I vote L-L's leopard thong be implemented as an easter egg

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Party Morale = ****ing Terrified

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if that causes "****ing terrified", what does the "Black studded codpeice" clothing option offer?

(I wanted to link a photo of the Black Russian from Blackadder, but the internet is mercifully devoid of screengrabs of it...)

chuck nor-oh god.

erm, 2006 called. it wants its meme back.