Recent content by Stiler

  1. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Jesus YOUR LORD said:
    Jump is kinda the dodge of warband.  The sudden acceleration balanced by the pause on landing.  It also acts as the lunge of warband for the same reason.  I still get caught occasionally by someone who seems comfortably out of range and who does a jumping-flying-decapitation move that ruins my day.  Also I feel that couched lancing is a pretty balanced mechanic at the moment and there are plenty of things to do so long as you become aware of the cav before the lance is piercing your beautiful body.

    What I don't want to see is a bunch of rolling around the ground doing ninja dodges like primary school kids on too much sugar.  That kind of move doesn't belong in a medieval simulator.
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    I don't know of anyone asking for rolls, just common sense side-stepping/back-stepping and lunges, things that they would actually do in real combat.

  2. Shields should be revamped for bannerlord!

    I agree with you, especially in regards to giving shields different speeds at which you can move them to block incoming attacks and other things that make each type different (not necessarily "better" but just different, with advantages and disadvantages to each for certain things).

    I am a huge fan of sword and buckler fighting and they have never really been treated right in any movie or game that had them. There's a reason that bucklers lasted longer in the middle ages then other shield types (they even found one in Jamestown).

    Bucklers were quite different then larger shields, mainly for the fact that you didn't strap them to your arm like most shields and instead held them in your hand with a grip. The main advantage a buckler had was it's speed and it's offensive capabilities.

    Bucklers were quite varied they had a large variety of different ways to be used. You could have a spike that protruded from the bosse, serrated edges to the boss, spikes or other things that stuck out around the shield (this was great for catching the enemies blade and binding) as well as both concave and convex designs. Also since you merely held it with a grip you could let go of it if need be, whereas a shield strapped to your arm if someone grabbed it or such it could be use dto throw you off balance.

    If I had to choose any shield to use when fighting in melee combat it'd be a buckler above any other for it's use as both offense and defense.

    However bucklers aren't as good as other shields when it comes to guarding against arrows and other things where a shield with a larger coverage area would be more handy to defend with.

    I'd love to see bucklers get some good offensive capabilities or other things, just to give you more options for shields and reasons to use one for certain situations.


  3. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Amaranth the Druid said:
    Stiler said:
    I was talking more about the realism and presentation. Melee combat will generally always have more depth (there's just more things to do), my point was about how they model archery with the details like arrows having drop to them and your aim getting worse the longer you hold but melee combat on of itself isn't really portrayed with the authenticity that the other types are.
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    that's because it would be impossible to recreate actual sword fighting to detail.
    do not confuse hollywood for real life.

    if you have any idea as to what actual sword fighting is like, you would understand what it entails.
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    I am in no way confusing hollywood for real life, I think is clear from my posts in this thread.

    I am fully aware it was be very hard to have it 100% realistic and every single little detail, especially if you delve into grappling and binding swords, etc.

    However working from a foundation with having actual stances and guards (which is the base foundation of middle ages fighting) is entirely possible and building up a system from there that's based on authenticity and actual real world tactics and moves, making it fun first and foremost but still having it look and be as authentic as is reasonable for a game, the same that they have done in regards to archery/mounted combat with the detail and more realistic focus (IE arrow drop, losing aim the longer you hold, momentum playing a huge role in lances, horses not turning on a dime at speed).

  4. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    momcilo94 said:
    Stiler said:
    I have however always felt the melee combat was lacking when compared against these other two areas.
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    I disagree, the melee combat has more depth to it than any other form of combat in the game currently. If something doesn't have all the features it should, or if it doesn't replicate real life completely it doesn't mean that it lacks depth. I suggest you put more time into dueling, you will be surprised at how much depth there is to the melee combat, and who knows, maybe it will change your view on the whole thing. It won't hurt trying.
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    I was talking more about the realism and presentation. Melee combat will generally always have more depth (there's just more things to do), my point was about how they model archery with the details like arrows having drop to them and your aim getting worse the longer you hold but melee combat on of itself isn't really portrayed with the authenticity that the other types are.

  5. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Das Knecht said:
    And now you've completely changed the subject on everyone.

    This is about game design, specifically what fits Warband and what does not. What you're proposing definitely doesn't fit Warband - you've heard it from several long-time veterans who know what they're talking about.
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    This entire thread I made to give my opinion on melee combat from a more realistic standpoint and thoughts on different things related to melee combat, be it stances, an actual dodge mechanic, or talking about historical accuracy/tactics. I am not sure where it's went off topic from any of those.

    What drove me to love M&B was it's setting and gameplay. The archery is my favorite and mounted combat. I have however always felt the melee combat was lacking when compared against these other two areas.

    The game that has used historical elements heavily and has a much more realistic take on archery/mounted combat, yet striving for  a deeper more realistic take on melee combat with having stances/guards and a larger set of different attacks/defenses, wouldn't fit it? That's just something I respectfully do not agree with some other people on.

    For example, with archery in M&B your arrows have drop, you have to lead on moving enemies and also as you pull back your bow to let loose an arrow you slowly lose the aim (just like in real life, since it takes strength to keep it pulled, the longer you hold it the more you will lose). This kind of detail is missing in a lot of games that have archery in them and the fact its all in M&B is what makes it so much fun (to me). I would just like to see the same kind of detail shifted toward melee combat in regards to more realistic focus of how it works and it's foundation.

    Orion said:
    It's almost like you didn't look at the ARMA video you linked previously. There are no fancy dodges in that video, there are no big heavy swings with feet planted. These things don't happen. To avoid attacks they simultaneously take a single step to the side or at an angle, attempt to gain control of their opponent's weapon, and position for an attack. This is great and all, but you can't put it into a game without making it a quick-time event. The amount of control required is beyond the abilities of a mouse & keyboard or gamepad. For a demonstration of just how awkward the game could be with a system that tries to simulate this kind of control, look at CLANG. Keep in mind that game also automates footwork and still manages to only be controllable with a fancy niche controller. Let us also not forget that in both the ARMA video and the example I've listed, combat is done between unarmored opponents with swords. Armored combat is, as you put it, is an entirely different beast. However, that doesn't mean basic principles are thrown out the window. Armored combatants won't be dodging any more than the guys in the ARMA video because they have to maintain their balance and leverage. Big lateral motion removes your leverage and does nothing to set you up for an attack that a single step and cross wouldn't do better.

    The previous video was about feinting, not really on dodging an attack. The other one I linked earlier was about specific techniques from a combat manual.

    There are multiple defenses to use in middle ages combat. Catching a weapon,  displacing it, binding it/winding, blocking  shield, and dodging the attack outright all are used in middle ages combat.

    For example, fighting with an axe against a spear? Going to be focusing a lot on dodging and avoiding his strikes and trying to find a way to bind the spear and get in range to land your own.

    Also I know too well about Clang (I put some money toward it). I still think it's possible to develop a system , that while not to a t 100% realistic in every single detail, that you can still develop a system that makes use of stances/guards and work on building a foundation around that while keeping a focus on having fun rewarding gameplay that has a foundation toward realistic mechanics.

    Thanks, I know what it is, which is why I mentioned it explicitly in my first post in the thread as a possible alternate stance for two-handed swords. It would be excellent to see it in Bannerlord but I don't think a grapple system would work, so I'd be fine with a different animation set, possibly faster or at least equal attack speed, and an additional damage type (blunt on pommel strikes, possibility for knockdown like with maces?). As also mentioned, if they implement some sort of damage bleed-through on powerful hits that are blocked, half-swording could provide some additional protection against that because of the improved stability offered by the alternate hand placement. Animations could be such that they are more effective earlier in the swing than standard swings as the hand placement also provides more leverage. The big trade-off is range, as you'd have the same effective range as a short sword. Variations of weapon usage like this would diversify combat without diminishing core mechanics or adding gimmicky limitations.
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    I do not know if you play them but I am a fan of mma as well and the modern mma games have a grapple system and the best they have thought of is having you "rotate" the joystick to move position in the grapple and have a "block" button so you can stop someone from gaining a position. So they offer a way to move within a grapple. That's about the best thing I could think of as far as mechanics go but honestly I agree with you here, grappling is something very hard to do in a game without feeling a bit "gimmicky" in how its done.



    Also as previously stated, tweaking current mechanics to promote more efficient footwork would lead to more intuitive movement in combat. The big thing would be combat speed, which could be emphasized some and/or tweaked to increase the penalty when moving out of your attack rather than into it.

    What isn't needed is a quick sideways/forwards/backwards hop/skip/shuffle/jump at the press of a button. It would just be too damn hard to land any hits, and adding more and more gimmicks like stamina to make it fit better is just a sign that it's poorly thought out.
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    Stamina is one of the best ways for a developer to balance melee combat, it ties everything together from offense and defense and stops the abuse of spamming and other things people can do in those games. There's a reason it has existed and is used in them.

    Just as you mention in your last post, if people could "spam" dodge (as in keep quick side-stepping or lunge back) it would lead to spammers and other abuses. That is exactly why most games have a stamina system in them.

    It's also a way to show the point of over exerting yourself, since it's a game it's a way to show something which you, the player, do not experience (since it's a game you aren't going to get tired from fighting heh).

    I just do not get why you think it's a "gimmick" to have these two mechanics in a game, you dodge in real life, you get tired in real life when exerting yourself (and fighting for a period of time is going to do that). It just has to be balanced for the game and built to be both fun and engaging.
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  6. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Are you talking about armoured longsword fighting?

    Because that is an entirely different beast.

    When fighting with a sword against someone wearing plate armour you aren't going to have much luck using normal strikes or attacks, that is exactly why they have half swording (where you grab the blade with your hand) and focused a lot on trips/getting the fight to the ground.

    With a sword you will have to thrust it into a weak point (groin, arm pit, visor slit) and that is exactly why half swording and various techniques for armoured longsword fighting are a bit different then fighting with another weapon against plate.

    If you mean fighting against plate with say an axe or mace? You can bet you want to dodge that, you can't just take a hit from that in plate without blocking it or dodging out of the way.

    Modern fencing and things like SCA or such aren't really indicative of a realistic combat scenario. That is why groups like Arma and Hema are out there, both strive for study and knowledge of a more realistic approach to things and learning how they really fought back then.

  7. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Orion said:
    It implies nothing of the sort. So, I say fights would go on for minutes at a time before anyone got hit, and you think that means people wouldn't attack? What the **** do you think is being dodged for that duration of time, if not attacks?

    My point isn't that it would make people more defensive, my point is that it would make defense easier, to the point of being ridiculously overpowered. Fights would take forever because it would be incredibly more difficult to land a hit in a game that already provides strong defensive advantages. Your whole "dodge + counter attack" argument is invalidated by the fact that there would be a dodge function. What's stopping me from dodging your counter attack? If I can't dodge your counter attack then we're back with something I said in my first post in this topic, which is:
    The first person to attack is committed too far in such a system.
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    This would actually make people more defensive, because they would know that a single mistake could be punished with impunity. It would become the only viable option because it would trump all others. Why should I do anything but wait for you to attack so I could dodge it and kill you while you are unable to respond? The comment on unbalanced damage and arcadey health regen is so off-base I don't even know where to begin. Unbalanced damage - if it's too high - would help such a poor system, because at least the first blow would usually decide the fight. Unbalanced damage - if too low - would make it so unbelievably worse that I don't even want to think about it. Health regen would be pointless in both cases, as you would either be dead from a single strike or fights would go on so long that dueling tournaments would probably switch to first-blood rules anyway.
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    That is exactly where feints come in. I throw out a feint attack, you sidestep to dodge the feint or try to block in the direction and then I quickly strike with a different attack in the direction you dodged, just like how real fights would work.

    See this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTKfw1dum0

    Feints are very much a part of realistic middle ages fighting. That is how you can attack over someone who simply tries to play pure defense or counter play.

    That's also exactly what boxers and other contact sports teach to this day. When you are fighting against someone who is a counter puncher you focus on feints and concealing your offensive moves.

    Also you assume if there is an actual dodge mechanic that there'd be no balance. That is exactly why most games have a stamina system, to balance out things so players can't abuse them or spam things. If you tried to quickly dodge over and over and over you'd lose stamina and then not have much left to attack with or block that well if a hit does connect.

    They could even incorporate a system of balance where if you are in the process of dodging or such and you get hit you have a chance to fall or trip which could then open up a whole new set of problems and things to overcome.

    :lol: I think Rhade understands movement in a fight in real life more than many on this forum, knowing what he does. I would think quick, lateral motion over a distance large enough to avoid a large weapon would put you off balance, unable to retaliate quickly and effectively. This could be why people wore armor and grappled, because both work to mitigate the dangers posed by weapons, and both make dodging less practical or even impossible. Let's not forget that armor is burdensome and, while designed to be fought in, does still affect your movement. I can speak with authority in that regard, having worn and fought in armor before. I can't say I ever "dodged" (in your sense of the word) or felt the need to, as I had more and better options at my disposal to avoid injury (grappling was a no-no though, too easy to cause serious injuries).

    So, apart from probable impracticality in the real world, it could very easily break melee (and ranged) combat in-game.
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    Plate armour isn't that heavy (around 45-50lbs for a good suit), yes it can still affect movement but good proper plate armour was made to allow a good range of motion and to still allow good movement. Chainmail could actually be a bit more taxing to wear, as the brunt of its weight rested mostly on your shoulders whereas plate was more evenly distributed over your body.

    People could run in plate armour, mount their own horse, and move quickly if need be.

    Even though plate protected you form some forms of attacks (mainly best against swords and arrows) you were still vulnerable from things like maces/axes and other weapons that could hurt you. If you couldn't parry or had no shield you would most definitely want to avoid being hit best you could.

    Though Bannerlord takes place a bit earlier then the era when full plate was being used, so not sure if it will be in the game or not depending on what the devs decide.

  8. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Eternal said:
    Stiler said:
    It would be so terribly frustrating to see an incoming attack and be able to quickly sidestep it and land a counter blow, the sheer horror of such an "arcade" thing that many fighters do in real life.
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    This already happens. Warband has this mechanic. If an opponent swings towards your right, you can "sidestep" (move left like a normal, real individual), swing left, and connect first before he does. Dodging is already in the game, in a manner that actually makes sense. There is absolutely no purpose or need for a gimmicky "press X to dodgeroll!!!" button when you already have sidestepping as a key, functional and realistic component of the game that is integrated well into its other systems.
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    Dodging is an important part of any melee combat. It's very important in real life not only in real middle ages combat but in most contact sports of today.

    Can you quickly move to the left or right? Can you leap back or forward? Ok, so how is it less realistic, or a "gimmick" if bannerlord allowed you to double tap a movement key to perform an actual quick side-step (not normal regular move speed) or leap forward/back?

    I am just trying to wrap my head around how some of you are trying to tell me that M&B has proper "dodging" when you can not make quick-dodge movements in a direction and somehow that actually having the ability to quickly move when you need to would be "arcadey," "not realistic," etc.

    I am sorry if any of you think I'm coming off hot headed, I have tried to remain civil and do not wish to upset anyone on the forums or this topic.

    We all enjoy this game, I just wanted to post this topic for my thoughts on helping to improve melee combat in various ways from my own opinion, nothing more or less so sorry if some of you think I'm coming off as well...a prick or anything, I do not intend to.



  9. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Orion said:
    Orion said:
    Imagine watching a duel between two highly skilled duelists with that! It would be several minutes before either of them took a single hit! :lol:
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    We. Do. Not. Need. This.
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    I wouldn't really see that happening.

    It implies that if you had an actual dodge mechanic in game that the skilled players would always be pure defense (thus using dodge) but someone has to attack, and by the very nature of a well developed dodge system if someone dodges a blow they can then counter-attack, as that's one of the main advantages to dodging.

    For example, someone thrusts their sword, you side-step the thrust and land a quick strike while they are lunging their sword arm forward and strike them.

    The only way this would lead to fights lasting too long is either the develops not balancing dmg or some arcadey form of health regen.

    Rhade said:
    Your argument is that dodging necessitates a seperate, unique function and it needs to be "quick."

    I'm sorry, but the combat works because that's not applicable. You may not think there's a "quick" dodge, your experience playing some SP beta may make you feel like there are no quick decisions when it comes to dodging. I assure you, there are quick decisions to be made when reacting to things happening in tenths of a second's time and deciding how to move in response to that. That is quick, not some artificial "bail me out of a bad situation" function.
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    Artificial? How on earth is a quick side-step, lunge forward, lunge back , etc "Artificial?" Are you implying that people lack the ability in real life to quickly move?

    Making a "quick decision" to move (at normal speed) at the edge of your enemies weapon can allow you to avoid being hit, but it is not a real "dodge" in the sense of quickly moving out of the way of a hit.

    The entire point of dodging is to "bail" out of a bad situation quickly, thus the point of it.

    DrTaco said:
    Orion said:
    Orion said:
    Imagine watching a duel between two highly skilled duelists with that! It would be several minutes before either of them took a single hit! :lol:
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    We. Do. Not. Need. This.
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    It should be implemented, if only to see the sheer ridiculous arcade-like abomination it will most likely turn out to be, or how frustrating it must be to play it.
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    It would be so terribly frustrating to see an incoming attack and be able to quickly sidestep it and land a counter blow, the sheer horror of such an "arcade" thing that many fighters do in real life.

    Also see no reason why you think it would somehow extend a fight , unless you think people would simply no longer attack.

    On top of this, like most melee combat games, they could implement a stamina system to balance out things and have a way to stop repeated quick-spamming of abilities (So you couldn't just keep dodging or sidestepping over and over and over), that's how most proper games would handle it.

    Tie attacks/dodging into a stamina system, balance it out for what the developers think makes the most sense for what they want, then things can be tweaked and adjusted as needed.

  10. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Yes you can move out of the way of attacks in the game, I know this, I have played M&B since it was in beta, before the first iteration of it was even finished and it cost 5 bucks or so (and the price went up as they got closer to the final release). Long before there was mp of any kind or fiefs and other things that are in the later games.

    That however is not real dodging...dodging is when you make a quick, sudden movement. This does not exist in mount and blade, as I said, unless it was added recently (I haven't played warband in a while). It's more just "avoiding" the hit by staying at range. You can only move at a regular speed, there is no "I see a move coming and I need to quickly sidestep it or leap back. You can only move at regular speed, there's no quick movements.

    The entire concept of dodging (by definition http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/dodge ) is to make quick sudden movements. Do you do this in M&B? No, you only move at the normal speed and if you don't keep the distance for your weapon/the enemy you can't really dodge because there lacks the ability to quickly move out of the way. That is the entire point of dodging and what dodging is.

    That is why when you have actual "dodging" mechanics in games, be it Severance, Rune, Dark Souls, even fps games like unreal tournament or many others, dodging makes you quickly move out of the way, if it was just normal speed it wouldn't really be a "dodge" rather you would simply be "avoiding" a hit, not dodging it.

    Having real dodging in M&B would be 10x more fun to me, being able to sidestep, leap back, leap forward (think of what you could do with thrusts or feints).

    Imagine for example being able to quickly lunge forward, go for a feint thrust, the enemy sees this and brings up his sword to block it and then you quickly dodge to the opposite of his block and strike him.

    To me having quick dodges/leaps can add to the combat, not take away from it, and it would (to me) certainly seem better then having to rely on using normal movement to avoid an attack.

  11. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Rallix said:
    Stiler, I think that you do not appreciate so much the problem with telegraphing attack animations.
    I much prefer the fluidity of warband's movement because the dodging is not just a movement assigned to a specific key combination.

    When you want to dodge to the left and attack in warband, there is not any single button or move which accomplishes that. Move left and attack, it is that simple. The sheer variety of combat which Warband and its mods represent is owed entirely to it's fluidity and universality.

    I just don't want to play another lord of the rings beat em up, a Dark Souls variant, or even a Severance rehash.
    Everyone thought that the Jedi Knight games were not as good because attacks were linked with movement and stance only.
    Additionally, no veteran player wants to have their movement controlled by their attacks either, as in Dark Souls/Severance. It's just not the same. Separation of movement and attack is exactly what makes M&B so special.

    Mount & Blade is the only game which has done what it does right. War of the Roses was a make-up covered, incorrigible, heap of trash. Its mechanics were unbalanced, poorly implemented, and essentially a brainless, slower, less responsive version of M&B combat.

    I want responsiveness! I want fluidity, simplicity, and universality!
    I want to control every single detail, and have every single mistake be mine alone! This is the agency of combat which Warband grants, and it is the mantra of M&B in general. The player is the agent, the mechanics are his tools, and they are easy to understand and use, but incredibly deep in mastery.
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    Mount and Blade doesn't really have dodging (unless it's been added since I last played). You are just talking about regular movement and "hopefully" missing the strikes.

    Severance had dodging in all directions, double tap w/s/a/d to quickly dodge in those directions. That is what dodging is, it's a quick movement, not regular movement.  if you saw an enemy going for a move quickly enough you could dodge it's attack radius.

    Also I am not asking for having your movement restricted. Jedi Knight is a VERY different system then Severance. Jedi Knight linked your movement controls to attack controls, which is a terrible thing imo. You should always be able to move when you want, I am not asking for people to be "locked" or rooted in place.

    However a system must have checks and balances. You can't just have your cake and eat it too without any consequences.

    IF you are doing an attack and then you decide that you need to move quickly or wish to cancel it, you should be able to, hoewver it has to have a cost to it, otherwise things fall apart. People could just spam feints/cancel attacks and it takes away the entire point of "reading" your enemy and countering their moves or anticipating their actions.

    That is why most action games have a stamina system and why IMO M&B needs one (if they overhaul combat in any real way).

    You see in Severance when you did an attack it did "lock" you into that animation, until it played out. This is what made the game system work because both you and enemies had to be careful and be smart about using certain moves. Knowing which move would work best at this time in combat, or countering an enemy move and knowing how much time the attack took him to recover so you had "this" much time to do an attack that was a bit more powerful (but slower then others). It made the whole system a kind of cat and mouse game, you had to know the moves, read your enemies, anticipate their attacks and learn to dodge/counter them.

    If the game had no stamina system the entire thing would have not worked, you wouldn't have to worry about dodging too much and losing stamina, or using the "big" higher dmg moves that cost more stamina, or many other things.

    However with the system I am proposing you should not be locked into place, but at the same time you have to have a "cost" with this, otherwise it could be abused.

    So to sum it up, I agree that the player should have full control over their avatar, however I do not agree that M&B does it right. There's no regard for animation between attacks/your body which ends up making combat feel floaty and disconnected from the attacks and your actions.

  12. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Reapy said:
    Stiler I get what you are trying to say about wanting to bring in realism, but remember your inputs available, a mouse with some x/y coordinate and 4 binary directional inputs. How can you really propose controlling where you put your feet or shift your torso around with balance? Your post talked about getting your weight behind it and moving with your swing... warband tries to do that already with the speed bonus, it just doesn't show up well enough to really see, but you can see it with things like a 2h saranid mace overhead crushing through when both players are running at each other vs backing up from one another.

    The other things are represented in animations, but those animations also have to telegraph the attacks properly. A while back we had thrust attacks that didn't have a wind up like they do now, it was a mess, the thrusts would come out of nowhere and were really hard to block. Maybe the new thrust animation wasn't the most aesthetically pleasing but you certainly ended up being constant with the other attacks.

    I'm trying to harp on you because I think we all share the same vision of what the game should be, just that I read your posts and find that I've experienced pretty much everything you've said while playing warband already. There is a cost to stopping your swing. Most swings you can pull out a bit before half way through, though unbalanced weapons you can't do that as much.

    One of the reasons we can walk backwards quickly in warband is to promote dodging and playing around at threat ranges. The main reason a great sword is such a pain in the ass to fight against with any other weapon is it typically out ranges it, and they can easily reach you when you can't hit back, pretty much the same problem a short boxer would have against a long armed one.

    I'd also have liked to see some sort of 'throw' concept from fighting games. Something to punish people for feinting or holding strikes too long, like you can kinda just shoulder rush them for an interrupt if they are in your face with the held strike or spaz feinting, just BAM and take initiative away from them.

    Also as a dreamer I'd wish I could survive better without a shield in the real game, or certain shields could be as fun to play with as a weapon you can parry with!
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    What I mean i regards to the feet/balance and everything is kind of brought back around in your second post.

    Basically what I mean is like in Severance, when you do an attack the "animation" for the attack is a full-body animation, where the animation for an attack animations not only your upper torso/arm, but your entire body with regard to where your feet/lower half is at.

    There's a huge "disconnect" in M&B in this regard. Your attacks have no bearing on where your feet/body is and people can just strafe/move around while doing attacks.

    Here's a short video showing two guys from the ARMA showing various techniques:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsGU5KI1qJA

    Their body/feet move with a purpose for what their upper body/attacks/defense is, they don't just strafe or randomly move around and throw swings.

    This is not to propose a system that's not "mobile," as you can see you can be VERY mobile and movement plays a vital role in what they do, but each movement has a purpose.

    Just like in Severance, I found the dodging to be faaaaar better then M&B in this regard, constantly have to dodge attacks.

    Also you bring up throwing, that's actually a good point. It's a common misconception that sword fighting (or middle ages fighting in general) was just two guys standing off "swinging" their weapons until one hit the other guy.

    A LOT of combat revolved around "Grappling" and disarms/trips, there are many techniques for those shown in the surviving combat manuals. Yet you almost never ever see this in movies/games when it comes to melee fighting in the middle ages.

    I'd love to see various ones in the game, and it could be incorporated into the stances/guards system, where each one has various attacks/disarm techniques you can do from that stance that work better vs certain ones.

    If you get someone to the ground it could be a huge momentum shift (if you're the one on top).




  13. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Sherlock Holmes said:
    Imo, combat in WoTR/WoTV and Chivalry is awkward, because of the weird animations and the attempt to make realism or something.
    Animations in Warband look perfect because they aren't overly complicated or strive to display 1 000 muscle movements, like anyone needs that, any other(read: newer) medieval combat game released or in progress has shown some motion capture animations and what not, and it feels and looks very awkward which is why I mostly don't like playing Chivalry or WoTR.
    Click to expand...

    Neither Chivalry or War of the roses/Vikings are anything near realistic.

    There has really not been any middle ages or action game in general that even attempted to try realistic portrayals of swordsmanship and in general how fighting was during the middle ages or before.

    I do find it a bit obtuse that some of you seem to knee jerk that "Realism = not fun" when you haven't ever played a game that tried it or know how it could work. Taking it to the extreme (IE as someone talked about requiring you to go to the bathroom and other absurd things) just completely misses the entire point.

    It's a game, it should be fun, that doesn't mean that striving for a realistic portrayal in terms of actually having stances/guards, animations that look realistic and overall having more depth and sense of weight behind your movements would somehow make it "less fun."

    I love M&B, I love the archery, I love mounted combat, but melee combat needs massive improvements. The system in place is extremely gamey and goes against the more authentic sense that the other areas of the game try to go for, why have horses that actually have gaits of speed? Why make them take time to turn (when many games have them turn on a dime), all of these "realistic" things that are already in place in M&B enhances the game and overall fun of it yet melee combat is one place that sticks out because it's so far from it.

  14. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Reaver_RS said:
    Stiler

    Stiler said:
    This is exactly what real combat is about, even to this day with modern fighting, sports like Boxing, MMA, etc a great deal of it is spent on countering and reading your enemy, understanding their incoming attacks and then preparing against them.
    Click to expand...
     
    Not true. For me locked on movement animation looks like wrestlemania: telegraphed strikes with some "awesome" moves. MMA and boxing is also about gaining position advantages, circling around each other, attacking from different angles.

    Yes were is a cost. It mostly kind of trade off between responsed animation and detailed animation.
    For me the most important it is a game experience. And i believe, that the best way to achieve it - allow the player to feel in control of his character as much as possible. Locked on movement animations may looked very smooth, but player during this animations more or less ignored. So, for me, it will be good have awesome, believable animation, but not for cost of the game experience.
    Click to expand...


    I am not saying take control out of the players hands, as I said you should be able to second guess a move but it has to come at a cost, in Severance every move uses stamina, a more damaging move cost more stamina, if you enter into a move and then quickly decide you want to stop it, you should be able to, but it has to come at a cost to stop it from being spammed/abused.

    Also in regards to the body and fighting in general, my point is that your feet, and your body in general, are paramount in what you do.

    Speaking of boxing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footwork_%28martial_arts%29

    Your feet play a VITAL And important part in almost any combat sport, boxing, mma, muay thai, etc. The attacks you do depend a lot on knowing how best to place and move your feet. You try throwing a left hook WHILE moving left, it's an extreme world of difference vs planting your feet properly, setting your weight and turning your entire body into the hook like a proper boxer does.

    That is part of the point I'm trying to make, when doing a move your entire body should move in sync with your actions, the lower half of your body should not be treated as some "independent" thing separate from the actions you do with your upper body in regards to attacking.

    That is why footwork is so important when you train in boxing or about any martial arts.

    It was also the same for swordsmanship and such back in the day, as shown in the numerous surviving combat manuals that are out there.

  15. Bannerlord, making melee combat more realistic/fun?

    Orion said:
    I strongly dislike the notion of a combat system which locks your movement during an attack animation. While the animations themselves might look better, they're going to feel awkward and clunky in use. Being forced to move along with your attack means everything you're doing is 100% predictable. Your opponent will know not only what attack you're attempting but also which direction it will force you to move and how far, so he can simply move aside and take advantage of your forced movement to make a counter-attack. The first person to attack is committed too far in such a system.

    My main point is that when you do various attacks and such your body should move in relation to the attacks yo are doing, rather then having movement be independent of attacks and your feet playing zero role in how you attack or anything.
    Click to expand...
    To clarify, movement direction is independent of attacks. Your feet do play a role in how effectively you attack. While it's true that I can move one way and swing another, the damage of this swing will likely be significantly less than if I moved and swung in the same direction. Warband and the original M&B both have a speed bonus mechanic which are taken into account when calculating damage. If you move out of your swing rather than into it, your speed bonus will be much lower, possibly negative, whereas moving into your swing will increase the speed bonus significantly. Thus, movement is important when attacking as it contributes to your attack's effectiveness. There are also the less quantifiable aspects to consider, such as stepping into attacks to make them hit earlier in their animations, effectively speeding up attacks. In this regard, Warband's combat has some realistic mechanics.

    However, that is not to say that Warband's combat is realistic. It's clearly not. Swings are exaggerated and wide, hafts aren't handled differently than heads on hafted weapons, the previously mentioned speed bonus mechanics can be gamed to an extent (such as in the case of hilt-slashing), and so on. Perhaps the best course of action, then, isn't a complete remake of the combat system. Perhaps certain aspects of the current system should be updated while choice new mechanics with good synergy are added to expand on diversity in combat. In more direct terms, don't lock movement directions to attacks but increase the influence speed bonus has on damage, which will naturally promote more intuitive footwork for more effective fighting. Perhaps implement a system whereby blocking can allow an amount of damage to bleed through in a manner similar to block crushing with two-handed maces, though without necessarily breaking blocks entirely (basically, factor weight, speed bonus, & calculated damage of attack against weight & possibly angle of blocking weapon to determine any bleed-through of damage). This would promote moving with incoming attacks to reduce impact and give more aggressive players a means of wearing down passive players.

    Those are examples of things that could be changed which we already have implemented to some extent. For new things, I think stances are an excellent idea if implemented in a way that suits our combat system. Partizan mentioned Jedi Academy, which IMO has a stance system which I think would fit quite well with M&B's combat mechanics with a few changes. Jedi Academy's stances, in the simplest of terms, offer trade-offs of speed for damage while varying attack animations between stances. Damage/speed are already intertwined in M&B, and clearly lightsabers are not that similar to real swords. Ditching the forced speed/damage tradeoff, you're left with varying animations between stances (which could vary enough to imply a speed/damage tradeoff on their own). I think being able to change your set of animations at the drop of a hat would have significant implications in M&B's combat, and would allow for historical techniques to be implemented to some degree in M&B in the form of stances. For example, half-sword techniques could be implemented for two-handed swords and their moveset could be much more vertical than current street-sweeping two-handed sword animations while retaining speed. The trade-off would be narrower, shorter attacks, but possibly with a blunt damage attack (a hilt strike of sorts) and more control in restricted spaces like alleys or with nearby friendlies. It could also be harder to bleed through a block while in half-sword mode because of the better stability offered by the hand positioning (if such a bleed-through system were implemented). So long as damage/speed aren't really penalized, it could be a very viable situational alternative.

    Similar alternative fighting styles could be added for the weapon types to some degree or another. This functionality already exists in a very rudimentary way, and can be seen with the long axes. With more depth added to our current combat mechanics and new features implemented which compliment such changes, I think Bannerlord's combat could exceed Warband's and again raise the bar.
    Click to expand...


    Jedi Knight suffered greatly from the same issue with mount and blade, the Ice skating effect.

    IE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn63_rpKbhQ

    Do you not see the problem with movement being independent of your attacking and defense? This creates the gameplay style you see in that video, players will just button mash attacks and then "strafe" back and fourth and run around while wildly swinging their weapons without regard for their attacks or enemies, it looks and feels very "sloppy" and there no real nuance or depth to movement and attacks.


    Tying animations to attacks for your entire body gives the moves weight and realism. It also creates a system of depth and checks and balances.

    When you tie full-body animations to the attacks this in turn stops the ice skating effect but it also adds more depth. E move takes time to do, with slight differences in animation and the speed of the move which in turn creates many subtle variables. Certain movies are faster to pull off then others, when you do a move you are left "open" to a counter attack IF  your enemy reads your movie or anticipates it ahead of time.

    This is exactly what real combat is about, even to this day with modern fighting, sports like Boxing, MMA, etc a great deal of it is spent on countering and reading your enemy, understanding their incoming attacks and then preparing against them.

    Here is a little video of Severance:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbcZvGSgVk

    Notice anything? The player isn't just strafing/running around and blindly swinging his weapon about. He is reading the enemies, dodging their attacks, using his own and sometimes even he gets caught. The combat looks much more "grounded" and everything has weight and purpose to it, it looks more like you'd expect combat to look and feel.

    In Severance defense played a huge role in combat. You can't button mash, you can't just swing around, reading your enemies moves, dodging or attacking their moves was just as vital as offense.

    In mount and blade defense is mostly one faced, blocking with a shield. You can't really dodge attacks that well, to me you should be able to do both on top of parrying with your weapon if you wish.

    Now this isn't to say that you can't go further with a new system more then the example I posted of Severance, as stances aren't even in that game either. Plus as I said, you should be able to "stop" an attack if you need to (In severance when you initiated an attack you were locked into that animation until the move finished). I think you should be able to cancel an attack and be able to move (at a cost though, there has to be a cost so it can't be abused, say extra stamina or a slight delay before it cancels).

    A good combat system needs checks and balances, doing things needs to have counters to it, and things have to have a cost.


    Partizan_Rusi said:
    CaptainAndrew said:
    And again, it really isn't a problem with being hard to do, rather than just being expensive performance wise and cutting down on the player(or AI) count in a scene.
    Click to expand...
    AI and single player doesn't really matter for me and for other players who played Warband multiplayer mods 90-95% of their time in game. Personally I think that focus of the new combat system must be multiplayer combat and not fragging bots solo. Just look at all these servers and players online, there is thousands of players, multiplayer online game.
    TW could just equip all AI with swords and be done with it, they like swords anyway.
    predat0r said:
    Am I the only one that thinks Warbands gameplay is fine?
    Click to expand...
    Did you played any other melee slasher/ hack&slash game ?
    I still have copy of Blade of Darkness on my hd and I think its abandonware and I can share it.
    Click to expand...

    It's available on gog, for fairly cheap:
    http://www.gog.com/game/blade_of_darkness


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