Recent content by Master_

MercerTSG said:

Just get rid of the archaic archer and xbow class and combine them into a class that can play both. Playing on EU PK/PW as an archer/xbow in clans for 6+ years and having to retrain and sell or drop your primary weapon basically every castle/map change gave me cancer.

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I'd rather see a ranger class that Roy's mentioned alongside the old classes. Perhaps a somewhat lower skill with the tradeoff being that you can use both xbows and regular bows. Keep a traditional 'Crossbowman' and 'Archer' (though I'd prefer the title of Longbowman in this instance) with higher skills with each respective skill. Gives more options and specializations without removing classes wholesale.

Knight is a good example given by Roy - Mix the classes for people who like general use, and keep the specific ones for those who like to specialize in one particular role.

Roy1012 said:

I gave you five years of things going on in the mod. What do you want, an academic paper? By that logic, nobody can make any statements about the mod, since I’m pretty sure there’s no peer reviewed thesis papers on pw ?

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What a coincidence - you cant give a statistical amount of players without proper data. That's how statistics work. Especially when we have to include future players, which makes it a literal prediction that - again - you't can't make without pulling a number out of your ass. It's not by my logic, its by, you know, logic in general.

Roy1012 said:

This was done in 2017 or possibly even earlier; that’s the earliest I remember. Just kind of goes to show how out of touch you are with how things have actually been going on PW.

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I didn't play the mod as a player, the commoner spawn never affected me. And I while I can't dispute changes being done in 2017 to the map, I can completely say that the old version still ran until 2019. Oasis, I know for a fact, ran it at the end of its life cycle.

But regardless, multiple maps have suffered from poor map design is the point I was making. Maps with certain features cause an uptick in complaints and rule breaking by the nature of the map itself.

Roy1012 said:

I have never once seen anyone take the traveler class. Pls remove

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Or at least give it a purpose other than literal trash.

Roy1012 said:

You asked for proof and I showed you such.

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'Proof'. You mean you showed you playing with your clan, which isn't a statistic by any degree. Again; waste of time to keep arguing when your own evidence of any such claims is anecdotal, when no such data on the playerbase exists. Especially the playerbase for Bannerlod's version as its not even out yet.

Roy1012 said:

Putting the commoner spawn in the same place as a usable castle is a recipe for disaster I agree. Since, it has been amended on those maps like that and Great Divide, they put it outside the main castle (In both cases, it was Praven)

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I don't recall the spawn on Realm Divided being moved outside of the castle; only change I remember was the removal of the Town Watch faction in general. Made that half of the castle useless, and didn't really solve the issue. As for Great Divide, wasn't that the map with the commoner spawn inside of the mine outside of the main town? Was a good spawn - no reason for anyone to be killing fresh spawns.

Also; @Bridge, what types of classes can we expect? Will it be the same as PW/PK or will things be added/removed/changed?

Roy1012 said:

I don't think having less rules for the sake of having less rules is necessarily a good thing.

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Its not just for the sake of having less, its to simplify the rules as to make the game more accessable to new players. But as Bridge stated, not the place to discuss rules.

Roy1012 said:

Here's 7 hours worth.

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Good for you. You've missed the point, but to each their own.

Roy1012 said:

Never happened lol

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Oh lord, don't say that too loud. Froi might hear you.

Roy1012 said:

Eh. I don't see it being a good or bad thing one way or another, as long as they are "of consequence", as in, a pub faction fighting in a war. People sitting around in a city square doing absolutely nothing during the big wars is just going to lag the server.

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Fair enough, but to each their own. If a group of people want to do what Gwae and the Gypsy clan did - sit in a little house and chill as neutrals - then so be it.

Roy1012 said:

I spoke with Matthew, he said his guys were fine with it. My guys were, and I know that Beefy's guys were, once the rule was enforced. That's like 70% of the NA community for the past few years, so...

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Good for you. You aren't the one who had to listen to these same guys complain about it on a nightly basis lol.

Roy1012 said:

That was 7 years ago, back in 2015 when we started. That hasn't been the case since.

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It was more recent than that - I'm thinking early 2019ish? It's been awhile since I was an HA on a stable server.

Roy1012 said:

Don't have a recollection of this, but I've been in many wars so...

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As stated, I'm not sure if you were there or not. All I clearly remember is Blackfyre's doing it, but it's really unimportant. Just put your clan as one I kept an eye on during wars once upon a time.

Roy1012 said:

I suppose, but the fact it survived longer than most shows it was the greatest of the failures, I suppose.

Sure, things ebb and flow. There are more active times than not, but that's just how any game goes.

Eh, I suppose. Would be nice to have breakable boundaries like carts in castles, so I suppose that's a plus to it.

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I don't really see the need to respond to all of these individually, we've derailed the thread more than we should have at this point. Moot points. Dropped a few minor things below as well, would rather keep on topic.

Roy1012 said:

Not gonna lie, I have absolutely no clue what Shattered realms is. I suppose you do have an argument regarding the commoner spawn, though having it in a neutral area not near any castles would be great. I hope in regards to spawn blocking you aren't talking about people blocking spawns, as thats necessary and important for the gameplay of siege warfare. I totally agree they shouldn't be allowed to be blocked by carts or horses, though.

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Correction; was called Realm Divided, my mistake. Shattered realm was a server. Had to dig through my old files for the actual map name itself. Pretty sure its that one. The one with the big castle in the center over a river, separated by a bridge. I don't have any screenshots of it anymore. But yeah, the spawn was down an alley beside the town watch half of the castle, and every time there was a war, that spawn got camped because 'warzone lol'.

And using players to block is completely fine depending on the situation. I don't see any legitimate reason to human wall to block commoner, outlaw, or neutral factions for ****s and giggles. But yeah, for war, there's never been any issue with that as far as I've ever seen on any server. At least none that I had any involvement in.

Roy1012 said:

I suppose that's the best argument for it, which is a strong argument. And thinking it over, I'm a bit more on the fence than I was before. But, IDK, could be the "easy way out".

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Will all depend on how the beta run goes I think. We'll see. But hey, its an idea.

Roy1012 said:

I've wanted there to be certain "trade goods" which you can transport and get a profit with at another spot on the map. Like, some kind of silk which you can buy at once castle and sell for a big profit at the next. Completely useless beyond that purpose. It could be awesome to have ships be the "good", like in Age of Empires 2, having trade carts go between markets, you can take a specific ship to another port for a profit. It would be nice to have different varieties of ships, it would be nice for a clan to consider whether they want to attack by boat or by land, and have both be equally viable.

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The trade goods idea sounds interesting. A 'silk road' type of mechanic.

I'm all for ships, they were under developed on PW/PK. Doing a naval assault was pretty well useless on PW most of the time just by how the boats functioned.

Roy1012 said:

Well, as I mentioned, as long as there is a rule against hoarding, it’s fine. There have been such on every major server for the past few years.

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Can agree with that, but making them craftable would remove the need for that rule in general, which would be preferred.

Roy1012 said:

The past few years of playing the game and witnessing how things have gone down.

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As for PW, fine. Lots of people were in clans. But unless you have some sort of legitimate source, please refrain from making sweep percentage stats out of thin air - just like the aforementioned 'six week' estimate the Froi went on about that was made. PW had a thriving pub community once upon a time, I hope Bannerlord follows suit.

Roy1012 said:

I don’t think anyone is doubting this but, if things have worked fine in the past to interest players. I don’t see why it would be different in Bannerlord, and would rope players in any less.

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Fair. But the goal should always be to bring in new players. I recall the days when Avalon and Nexus had full or near full servers on a nightly basis, not the sad 100ish we had by then end.

Roy1012 said:

I’m talking about them being fine with having to find carts, not the hoarding of carts. As I’ve mentioned, I’m all for anti-griefing rules including banning hoarding carts.

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No one was 'fine' with it though. The only reason the 'hording' of carts entered the ruleset was due to the sheer volume of complaints. To stay on with the thread; the whole thing would be a nonissue if carts became craftable.

Roy1012 said:

Find one instance of me/my groups cart blocking. I’ll wait. As for hoarding, I suppose you’ve got an argument there but, once rules were implemented it was highly discouraged amongst us.

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I remember having to handle multiple complaints on your clan in the past concerning cart blocking with one in particular; specifically in Brack castle on the Normandy map. Only reason I remember it was because I physically had to intervene and end the war because both sides (Blackfyres vs some sort of coalition? I don't recall) just cart blocked their respective castles, ignored members of the staff to stop, and just continued. The war wouldn't end, and both sides used the 'warzone rule' to wipe a bunch of pubs. Had to intervene, reprimand both sides, and force the war to end, which I rarely did. Can count the number of peak time wars I had to end on one hand, so when that happened, **** had properly hit the fan. However, I'll concede the point that I don't remember if you were personally online and leading at the time, but I remember clearly that the Blackfyres held Brack castle and had blocked the gates and flag cap point with carts.

I don't have screenshots on the matter because I was an admin for most of PWs life cycle, I didn't play the mod itself much during peak time.

Roy1012 said:

You act as if PW/PK was a failure. What failure? It was one of the most long-lasting mods, outlasting pretty much every warband mod out there. The fact it was alive and populated well into 2020, and is still going, is a testimate to its genius. Sure, people get bored and stop playing, but they do that for every game. I don’t play medieval II total war anymore, does that make that 16 year old game terrible?

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By no means was it a failure, but it did die due to lack of interest, bad servers, and development ending. It is was only a "failure" of a mod per say in the sense that it died, at least in terms of NA.

Roy1012 said:

I don’t think you’re very connected with what has been going on in the past few years on PW/PK. Pretty sure PW’s update cycle ended in 2015 or soon after, no? If anything, it either stayed the same (EU) or even grew (NA) after that time, at least on NA largely due to the activity of large clans hosted by people like Shadow, Beefy, Matthew, Jake and myself. We even pulled people from other games and modules and boosted the population for some time. I never saw the population on an NA server get to 200 until 2017, well after I joined the community.

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PW's NA population plummeted for a time after Clarky got DDoSed and his one server (I can't remember which one it was) died off. Think it was celestial that took over after that? But when PK dropped, pops climbed up again, at least for a time. At least that's how I remember how it went down; but I concede that I haven't been active in PW/PK since 2019ish I think, so I'll leave that be. You've been more active than I in recent memory so you're probably correct.

Roy1012 said:

I’m not saying I do. I’m just saying that taking out an aspect of the game and another thing that you have to “worry about” is probably something to be concerned about. Just like how I’m sure everyone would like a more in depth farming system, it’s another thing you need to pay attention to, which is always good.

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Fair, +1. From your previous post your 'not reinventing the wheel' didn't make sense in that regard, but thank you for clarifying.

Roy1012 said:

Again, if you have rules against this and enforce them, then it isn’t a problem. Just like since 2016 on NA (and as far as I know on EU, during my time in the Lannisters there was no issue with this and we often returned carts to enemies to make sure we wouldn’t be accused of breaking the rule), this has not been an issue.

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I recall it being an on and off issue. It'd be a non-issue for weeks and then a major war would start and someone would be dumb enough to try it again; whole server would flip out and then it'd calm down again. I'd simply like to see it not even be an issue anymore. If you can't cart horde or block castles with undestroyable props, no one can complain about it.

Roy1012 said:

The core rules obviously have much to do with it as I pointed out, but what does map design have? Does castle layout determine how many RDMs there will be? The only thing I can think of is if the merc camp is in a secure, central location so that people will be enticed to declare from it and thus not break a war declaration rule, but other than that I really can’t think of one.

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Map design does have to do with RDM numbers. Certain maps - depending on commoner spawn - had more RDMs happen. Shattered realm was terrible for commoner spawn - I saw more complaints in that specific area of the map, the spawn below the town watch - than anywhere else on the whole map. Certain maps - PK's version of shattered realms I think it was, with the two tiered castle on the mountain, across from the sand one - was a constant bed for spawn camping/rdm complaints. Same goes for cart blocking on the narrow pathway to the second tier in that same castle. Certain areas on various maps simply were problematic due to how they were designed. Confined spawns that can be blocked off with carts (Commoner spawns specifically) are something I hope we don't see in this new iteration. But I am no map maker by any means, so I'll leave that to those people.

Roy1012 said:

Firstly, carts come to the surface so they can easily be seen and acquired by boat. Secondly, my argument points out that it’s sort of making it the “easy way out”. There’s no challenge if you want to go mine some gold. Just craft a cart real quick and Ichi-go-to-the-polls. Now, obviously, there’s an important distinction to be made here. What things should be made easier for convenience’s sake, and what things should be made harder for gameplay’s sake? To me, the clear answer is things that are far too tedious to make anything a challenge, such as planting every individual seed in a different part of the field. That takes way too long and would not be fun, whereas buying a wheat sack and throwing them in is work, but it’s reasonable. I think looking for and acquiring a cart is more than reasonable, and makes the game a little bit more challenging.

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I disagree for previously made points; you alienate any new/pub players, and open the door for people to cart horde. If you remove the causation, you prevent the end result. But no sense in beating a dead horse.

Roy1012 said:

That has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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Again, I disagree for the above mentioned reply.

Roy1012 said:

Well, what I mean is that we should be adding aspects to gameplay, but not going too far. Keeping true to the model and goal of the game is a recipe for success, and if there are things that can be improved by Bannerlord having a better engine I’m all for it, as long as it’s adding more aspects of gameplay rather than less. I just don’t see finding a cart as a monotonous task. Maybe I’m in the minority on that, but I think spending a few minutes to find a cart is a reasonable price to pay in order to fill up a cart and reap the benefits. I don’t think crafting it is enough.

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I'd like to see a middle ground in this then. Make craftable carts smaller than carts in PW in terms of storage. Less risk in getting one, less reward for filling it. Like a wheel barrel or something of the like rather than crafting a full horse cart? Not sure, but needs to be a happy medium.

Roy1012 said:

I assumed he meant a few hours by this. Like you won’t see the same carts if you log off and come in the next morning.

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Ah, that would make sense. I'd rather see it at, lets say, 2 or 3 hours to degrade from lack of use? Wouldn't risk being lost during peak, but will start to clear out as the servers drop pop for the night.

Roy1012 said:

That’s something that could be good to be craftable, as PW play has proved boats need a major overhaul if they want to be relevant for gameplay.

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I agree. I'd personally like to see more than one 'standard' boat if they become craftable. Making naval warfare more worthwhile - trading ships with little cover vs warships (I,e fast long boats, medium speed but sturdy triremes, and slow but heavily protected turtle ships). Probably far fetched, but I'd like to make the island castles more feasible and worth using.

Roy1012 said:

People attack castles all the time, especially when there aren’t many defenders/clan members on. Ever heard of a pub war? They happen almost every day. Few people declare war, more and more join over time until small skirmishes turn into an all-out siege. Fun for all involved. Btw, I don’t know who exactly you are referring to as “the majority of the community”, because 80-90% of players are either in clans, about to join one, or part of a family tag group, all of which are totally fine with such chicanery.

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I love how you completely skirt what I said. Sure, people attack castles all the time. Who goes to war over carts? Why would anyone force pubs to try and attack a clan for a basic tool in the game?

Just like your 'optimistic' timeframe on when this will release, you throw out numbers like you have any idea as to what you are going on about. Bannerlord isn't PW. Where is this '80 - 90%' figure coming from? Especially considering the goal of bringing in many new players to the fold.

And if all the clans were 'fine' with it, then why did nearly every server after Illuminati's PW_Legacy (Circa 2014?) have a subsect in the rules concerning cart hoarding? It's because the same people you say are 'fine' with it, levied most of the complaints. Drop the self serving narrative becuase you personally enjoyed it, especially when you were just as bad as the old Roman clan under Meridius when it came to hording carts and cart blocking.

Roy1012 said:

Seeing as hundreds of people have enjoyed how PW has gone, after all these years are still playing (late last year on NA, even now on EU) and want to come back when the Bannerlord version comes out, I think the way PW is played isn’t the problem. Reinventing the wheel isn’t necessary.

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And if its the same old song and dance, people will quit again and we'll have another dead mod. PK was a refreshing upgrade over PW, and brought back some players who had left after PW's update cycle was done. The core will remain the same, but from the looks of it, Bridge is putting some major changes in place that we should all look forward to. No one wants a 1:1 copy and paste.

Roy1012 said:

Yes.

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See above. I simply will never understand how you can argue that keeping the broken cart system - where clans could horde all of the carts of the map, pubs be damned - is less of an alienation than having clan members change their steam names to reflect it in game. Then again, you are a clan leader, so I should expect your argumentation to be self serving.

Player experience on the server for everyone as a whole > perks for the clans.

Roy1012 said:

Map design really doesn’t have anything to do with it tbh. The “core” rules of A) halting/demanding B) war/war zones C) clogging D) any outlaw rules and E) glitching/abusing scripts are really the only rules that are totally necessary, though it’s not as simple as that. Details need to be given to avoid unwanted outcomes but, like Bridge said, this isn’t the place to discuss server stuff.

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Map design has a lot to do with it, as do the core rules. But arguing that with someone who hasn't been a member of an administration team for any real length of time would be a pointless venture, so I'll bow to Bridge's earlier post and leave it be.

Roy1012 said:

As for the breakable vs. placed prop cart debate, I really don’t give a **** either way. I suppose I lean towards the latter as with breakable ones you are removing an aspect of gameplay which has been important in the past and has at the very least made an impact on things. Want to go for a gold mining trip? Gotta find 3 or 4 carts. Instead, you can just grab some wood and craft them. You’re losing something with that system, even if it’s something small, small gimmicks like that build up quick.

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It makes less sense to NOT have craftable carts. Why would anyone want to aimless explore the map, searching castles overnight to hopefully find a cart, that may or may not just be dumped in a wall and hidden, or dropped in the water?

Goes back to earlier points; having the cart system remain that of PW's serves no one but the clans.

Roy1012 said:

In general, I think we should move towards more “aspects” of gameplay rather than less. For example, revamping the crafting system, making farming more in depth, with more preparation stages. It’s things like that which clear up a lot of the monotony of what in reality is just left clicking and pressing f over and over, as at its core there really isn’t much to do on PW. And, if that means it will be slightly more inconvenient to get a cart, that’s okay with me.

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I completely agree with this sentiment, though you contradict yourself. You say that "I think the way PW is played isn’t the problem" and that you dont want to reinvent the wheel, yet want revamps to break up the monotony. Not sure where you stand on it based on your post.

But back to the matter at hand;

Bridge_Troll said:

I thought about some sort of durabillity system for unused carts: if the designated card/boat is too far away from any player for N amount of time and|or unused for N amount of time, it will slowly degrade over time until it despawns, making room for new props to be crafted(there is probably an option to make limits on these things). So making them destroyable would be a result of said mechanic. Not sure about it yet tho, might be too much work for such a small triviality, but definitely something to think about

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A durability system would be nice, though I do see ways that could be abused - just have a guy during a siege pick it up and drop it again every once in awhile to infinitely hold the cart and keep others from spawning. However, that's an infinite improvement over the old PW system.

As for boats, we had set number of those in PW as we all know. Had to reset them after they were 'destroyed' and sunk. Are you suggesting here that boats are going to be craftable too then?

Roy1012 said:

I think the current system is fine. Sure, sometimes people take carts to other places, leave them behind, etc. and you won’t see a cart in the castle. That’s part of the fun, though. If it’s not easily available in the castle, you’ll have to find it. I’ve had a lot of fun going to a nearby castle and forcefully liberating some carts from an enemy because we had none. As long as a server has rules against hogging all the carts on the map, it will be fine. Also, what if the castle is out of the resource to make the cart? Go gather it but, oh, wait. You don’t have a cart to do that. So you have to keep running back, bringing the wood back. Seems like the opposite of fun.

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You just gave an example of one of literally least fun experiences for the majority of the community. What new, clanless player, is going to storm your castle - and I can say that because I've literally seen your clan horde carts - and find that to be anything resembling 'fun'? Consider the new players we are all hoping for and what they might find enjoyable, rather than the small community of PW. And I was the one accused of alienating people over a steam name? lmao.

Back to the topic at hand, I'm all for degradable carts. With smart map design and with knowledge of how **** was broken in the past, the less rules we need. The less rules the better.

Younes said:

Your point changed because now you're saying it should be a low priority, your previous post made it seem like you didn't want it completely. Yes, it is a low priority, but it is something needed nonetheless.


Yes you are alienating people if you don't think it should not be a thing, but as stated previously you said it should be a low priority which is agreed upon.

I already told you why it's a big deal for many people and is a thing that would not change anything to users who just want to use their steam names. There is no downside to this, only upside.

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I never said not to do it, perhaps I was unclear. I just don't see the need for it, especially right now. I really just see it as a minor inconvenience that the clans just dont wanna deal with, but to each their own.

But back to the actual topic, and from my previous post that was drowned in debate;
Are carts going to be destroyable/craftable? If we use the PW system - how carts were limited and couldn't be destroyed, would it be far fetched to request a 'reset carts' function like it was for ships?

I recall scripts having to be added where you could shoot floating carts with a certain bow and specific arrows to pull it back to you. Definitely feel like a reset button would be easier.

Roy1012 said:

You kind of contradict yourself right there. If it takes three seconds to change, then how would it make it any different from changing your in-game name to "hide" and do "edgy ****"? And, no, nobody's saying it's cumbersome, I'm saying that its a hassle, people won't want to, people will forget to, etc. It would be such a better system if you could have an in-game name that could be changed. Bannerlord Online did it, so obviously it is possible. Are you really expecting hundreds of people to want to and remember to change their steam name to something specific? What if they don’t want to? What if their friends know them as “Edward” and not “Levy_Walnut_Lannister”? They see this levy walnut and wonder who the **** is this guy? Delete. Sure, many people have nicknames for close friends, but it’s adding way too much potential stupidity.

What carts are you talking about? I don't know what mod you were playing, but in PW and PK, carts were a prop added in through the scene editor and could not be destroyed.

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I contradict myself? How so? Your steam name history is a thing. Unless you spam name changes to hide a name beyond what steam will retain. Which, fair enough, I could see people doing it. If I have Froi on steam, see he's launching bannerlord and his steam name is 'Chowski_the_*****' or 'RoyIsSmug', well I can safety assume who Im seeing in game.

I'm not expecting hundreds of people to change their names. The clan leaders are. This is a TW decision when they made the game. I just don't see how this is that big of an issue or inconvenience that anyone would get upset about it at this stage in the mod. Then again, to be fair, I've never hid behind assumed names on PW, nor have I ever given a **** about clans or clan tags. To each their own.

Also; my mistake in typing that out so early in the morning. There were no destroyable carts - meant indestructible there. Still, a reset button would be a good addition if carts remain the same.

Younes said:

You pretend like this is going to take a huge amount of time in development. It's due to the simple fact it was a good feature used by many in warband. I, for one, don't want to change my steam names to go on a server, and I am confident many don't either.

Quality of life improvements are also part of development, and so is changing your name. Making people go all the way on their steam profile to change the username is absurd and shouldn't be a thing for a mod like persistent world. And what if they have edgy names? It's still tied to the steam64 ID for the user, and he can be banned regardless of the name he takes.

All you're doing with this is alienating people from playing in clans or the mod as a whole by forcing them to change their steam username to something they don't want to do for whatever personal reason they have.

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It's going to take more time than it really needs to, considering the mod isn't even out yet. Quality of life is fine, by all means, but we don't even have a functioning mod yet. I'd rather see gameplay before worrying about changing my name to 'meme_lord' to screw with people I have on steam, without them knowing its me.

I'm not alienating anyone. This isn't a decision Bridge is making, its coded into the game by the literal developer. As stated above, I just don't see what the big deal is, nor do I see why this is a talking point before we've even got a functioning beta for the mod. Changing your name is part of development? Say what? I'd rather see a functioning mod with carts that dont throw people across the map than worry about anyone changing their name because they choose to run clan tags.

Roy1012 said:

This is pretty important tbh. Clan tags are pretty necessary for in-game purposes, and asking hundreds of people to change their steam name permanently is just bonkers.

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Steam names aren't permanent. Takes three seconds to change it. Steam name changes are free and can be changed as often as you want. If people want to be in a clan, they'll just have to change for banner calls. Why take time away from other facets of development for something petty? I'm all for having it as steam names; less hiding and doing edgy **** with assumed names.

Bridge_Troll said:

both ways of teleporting were already possible back then, so that'll be added again
And on the Admin Armor topic, not sure if that is going to be a thing anyways, there are probably better ways to make an admin noticeable / mark a character as Administrator. Might just make a return for nostalgic reasons, but there is no necessity in my eyes.

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From what I recall on PW, both were an option but every set of scripts I've seen widely used, one of these was changed for teleporting players to you rather than you to them. If you plan on keeping both, that'll be very nice.

I'm curious what ways you'd 'mark' an administrator without some sort of visual armor, etc. Looking forward to seeing how you handle that. Further; are carts going to be destroyable/craftable? If we use the PW system - how carts were limited and destroyable, would it be far fetched to request a 'reset carts' function like it was for ships?

I recall scripts having to be added where you could shoot floating carts with a certain bow and specific arrows to pull it back to you. Definitely feel like a reset button would be easier.

Bridge_Troll said:

yes, admin tools will be included as they were in PW/PK. Whatever we see fit or by suggestion from the community will be added to the basic tools

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My only suggestion is to have both teleporting behind as well as teleporting in front of players. Having one or the other on PW was always an annoyance, as both have their own situational uses.

Also, how will admin armor be done, and will the armor itself be fixed? Admin armor could be, for the longest time, worn by standard players. I recall on at least one map - Valley of swamps I think it was - admin armor was purchasable by players, which was horrible.

Bridge_Troll said:

not really wanna disturb your conversation, but this thread should be about the mod, not about server administration and clan politics. There surely is a connection between all this, but not in this thread please

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Fair enough. But on the topic of administration, are the admin tools going to be the same as on PW? I recall the standard teleport, invisible, and spawning commands, but will these all remain and will there be anything else added?

Sorry if I've missed that in the previous 13 pages.

Roy1012 said:

1. I can't speak highly of other server owners, but Clarky has been impartial as ****. I set him up as owner of Infinity originally to try to be a puppet, but many a time he has cock blocked me from being able to push my agenda (not going to lie, that's exactly what happened). So, at the very least, you don't have to worry about that from him -- much to the dismay of myself and other clan leaders.

2. TW will blacklist any server which does this, so even if we wanted this to happen, it won't be.

3. To be honest, its the server owners who need to give the clan leaders respect. Like you mentioned, Tavington getting banned (for no reason mind you) should never have happened. It was because the owner felt like he needed to show strength/authority and prove that he's the one in charge. As we all saw, that wasn't the case. It's clans which keep the mod alive, nobody wants to play without them, which is evidenced by the fact that the mod only survives when clans are up, and dies when clan leaders don't want to play.

4. Unfortunately I have to agree. But it's just going to happen tbh. People always want to one up the others and get others banned; I will admit I have been pretty toxic in this regard. However, if the clan leaders and server owners come to an agreement of trying to "localize" enforcement of the rules, as in, the clans give their best attempt at disciplining their members and making sure they understand the rules and are following them, rather than always taking it to the forums to gain more salt, I think it could at least in theory work. I would do my best effort to keep my guys in line to ensure that we aren't getting any unfair advantage by bending the rules, after all, the more unfair advantages you take, the less the propaganda value of such victory is.

5. We have an opportunity, or if you would view it a different way, responsibility, to change things for the better. Old habits die hard, and if we set an example for how things should be at the beginning, people will, ultimately, follow that. If we set the tone of the mod at the beginning as one of some level of mutual respect, it will be very difficult to break that.

6. I can't speak to EU, but I think Clarky is universally liked, much due to his unbiased approach. He genuinely wants to help the community have a fun place to play, regardless of affiliation. He has said before that he will host a server as long as people wish to play, so at least on NA, I don't worry about this as long as he's there.

7. It's that very attitude that alienates clan leaders and ultimately their players. It's that very attitude that destroyed Nexus.

8. Unless its someone specifically unbiased and uncorruptable as clarky, yeah. I gotta agree.

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I'll just break my response down by number, because boomer lmao.

1. The issue with Clarky was never that he wasn't impartial. Clarky just wasn't around when we needed him. If memory servers, he had family **** going on at the time. Can't blame him for that, but it didn't help matters.

2. Good. But what TW knows about isn't always the same as what happens. That'll just fall back on the owner; if they take money from players for any reason, it'll just be the same. With the amount of DDoSing thats gone on in this community, would you really be surprised if someone still tried to throw money for gold, despite being explicitly told not to?

3. I disagree with that whole heartedly. Respect is a two way street, regardless of what you or your clan leading counterparts may think. Clan leaders have been strong arming server owners for years. I was removed not once, but twice from Phoenix because of Tavington twisting the arm of the SO. Clans will always be the lifeblood of PW, but that doesn't justify terrible behavior. Without an SO or admins who volunteer their time, the clans have no server tom play on. I don't think anyone who hasn't adminned before understands just how toxic it is to try and help this community just to get **** on, and on a nightly basis. Why do you think it's nearly always been a struggle to bring on, and then retain, competent staff?

And I was the HA who banned Tavington. The man was having his guys grief the servers entire population to get at Connor. I was the one who ran the meeting; the one where every clan on EU PW at the time came in and gave their essential testimony as to what was happening. I may not have been the most popular member of the community historically, but I've never banned unjustly or without cause.

4. Discipline should not be up to the clan leadership. If a server rule is broken, the admins should resolve the issue without fearing repercussions from the clans. I recall being head hunted on ShatteredRealms (might have been Sacred Oath actually? Can't recall, its been nearly a decade) for a good while after I made HA and finally started dropping the hammer. Hell, I remember a time on old Avalon that the whole Gypsy tag was hunted after some bans went down. Breaking the server rules should fall to staff and staff alone. Self policing leads to nothing but vigilante-ism. That is neither helpful nor useful. "That guy RDMed so I RDMed him, you're welcome!".

You can claim that you'd do your best to enforce things on your guys, but thats a hollow promise and you know it. There's no oversight by staff with that method. If I have a mass RDMing member of your leadership, and its mid war, don't expect me to belief that you'd remove them from the clan mid war. I've been RDMed by Lannisters far too many times to be that naïve. The only 'localization' of rule enforcement that needs to be done are staff members having a spine and not bending to the will of players. Localize some will and do what needs done. It's all about being fair, firm and consistent. Nothing more, nothing less.

5. I agree with that, as per my original post. Mutual respect; the clan leaders are going to lead, and the staff are going to enforce the rules. Shouldn't be 'salt' when it comes to rule enforcement. If a clan member griefs a castle, his tags should have no merit. By the same token, admins should not be dropping a wipe on a player of a clan he likes, and then 3 day banning a member of a rival clan for the same offense. Need checks and balances, which come from having experienced staff - especially senior staff.

6. I can't disagree. I've been HA under Clarky before and have no issues with him. Him going inactive, which I mentioned above, was the only issue I ever recall having with him. Now, to be fair to both sides, by the time I was HAing for Clarky, I had been burnt out for a long time, and I was on my way out of the PW scene which didn't help matters. But if it were Clarky, I'd have no issue with that. Hell, I'd even throw on tags for Clarky again if he'd have me.

7. Again, I disagree. We've seen servers with strong administration teams, and those ran by the clans. Nexus, the original, went on forever. Legacy had a long run. Oasis, the original, had a long run. Sacred Oath, Shattered Realms, and Infinity did not. History proves my point. When the ownership and administration bend to the will of those who lead the clans, the server suffers. Anyone who has ran an administration team can attest to the disruption staff in clans can cause. Influence the wars and politics of the server itself, leave the rule enforcement to administration. The only 'alienation' that comes from an SO not having a backbone are the general playerbase at large who get screwed over by terrible admins and rulesets. Infinity under Illuminati had very little internal strife and the server did well. He backed his administration team, and we resolved admin issues in-house. Avalon under Peasant when the True Cross took over all of the senior staff positions? Not so much.

8. You agree to my sentiment in response 7 here. Clan admins are an extension of clan leader influence on administration and should be prevented, or limited as much as possible, by those who own the server. Case in point.

Younes said:

Interesting points, agree completely on the whole clan's and server administration relation. Clans do have a kind of "leverage" over servers due to the action and activity they bring to said server, but I feel like this was a side effect mostly due to the popularity of the game altogether. I would presume this "leverage" would be less of an issue in bannerlord servers because of a massive amount of players willing to form their clan and only so many factions.

But as you said this is only a matter of time before the numbers dwindle during some periods and the issues start to pop up, I think the first severs for the mod will have a big task of changing this aspect and if they fail to do so, will ensure a continuation of PW like communities for the future to come. Rivalry between servers are normal, but it should be focused on improving the server instead of sabotaging the other like the way it did in PW as you've said with the said example of Oasis and Avalon.

As for the rules I am unsure if there will ever be a solution to it, the rules kind of defines how PW is played and unless they can shorten it by adding in game preventions for breaking such rules (thinking about how we had combat log for example), I don't think it will ever be fixed unless you change how PW/PK is played.

You could go for full anarchy but for obvious reasons, it would not be very fun.

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Clans will always have at least a degree of leverage; its the responsibility of the server owner and administration team to limit their influence. Through my many years of working as an administrator and leading administration teams, I've found that using clan members as admins is especially detrimental. I've had staff members in the past - even high ranking senior staff - stop adminning at peak population because of a 'banner call' by their clan leader. I've always avoided working with admins who have ties to clans, and will continue to do so in Bannerlord; be that in terms of bringing new admins on board or even having said admins handle my own complaints.

The first servers need to set the bar. The administration team for the first server needs to be one who can shape further iterations. It should be a team of long standing members of the community with administration experience who are willing to take a 'hands off' approach. No 'random' events (I,e - Kill the courser which was always a terrible idea), and focus on handling complaints in a timely fashion, especially senior staff. Admins should admin and let the players play. The goal of the administration team should be to administrate, not to screw around playing 'find the carrot' events.

Server rivalry is to be expected, but the DDoS attacks of old need to stop. By the end of PW, the NA community, frankly, did not deserve a stable server to play on. We killed it ourselves; we bought and paid for our own lack of a server. I simply hope this mod moves NA in the right direction.

As for the issue with rules, there is definitely a solution; simplify the rules, and allow the admins to admin. Set basic ground workings of rules, and allow the admins to use discretion and intelligence to solve any issues that arise (This goes back to having an admin team that is competent and experienced). If a player has an issue with the response a member of the administration team gives, they need to follow the proper channels. No one needs to be told how to halt people in 7 individual steps with pictures and 'what-if' scenarios in the rules. No need for a 'punishment chart' telling admins exactly what punishment to give. Training staff that way gives very poor results from my experience; you get admins who need to stop and consult a checklist on every complaint. The rules are not the tutorial that they'd essentially become, and that needs to be changed if this community wants to stop writing short novels as rules.

Froi said:

Anyone have any info on what the plans are for the servers when the mod goes up? Is it going to be the same thing where whoever has an excess of spare money to throw at server owners to ensure that their clan is on top running stuff? Hoping it will be a mod team hosted server for longer than the couple week test period with limited policing like how original PW was. PW was always the most frustrating to try and manage with man-children controlling groups of other people and refusing to let their 50 people play if things aren't going their way.

I'm just really hoping for less admin intervention on servers that aren't specifically those RP ones. You just need smart mod and level design choices that make playing like a normal person a better option that just RDMing everyone you see. The whole 7 pages of rules that you had to constantly have up on a second monitor while playing to ensure that the way you're about to do XYZ doesn't break Rule 342, subsection 8 is crazy, and I hope that gets addressed by whoever is gonna be running servers.

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The question of server ownership has always been an interesting one. If the server owner(s) aren't going to be impartial from the beginning, then we'll suffer the same cycle that we had during the Avalon vs Nexus and Avalon vs Oasis drama from back in the day. Further, any server that offers an in-game monetary incentive for the massive clans to donate is setting itself up for failure. Once the house is 'given away' to leaders of organized groups, it's rather risky to try and take it back. Peasant's last iteration of Avalon was a perfect example of this, as was the final days of Oasis EU. Dead clans/Clans in name only getting tens of millions of gold from Peasant in his bid to kill Oasis NA, and the banning of Tavington which put the final nail in Oasis EU.

Dealing with the clan leaders was always the biggest struggle, and I expect that to continue with Bannerlord. I'd personally like to see more of a mutual respect between server administration and clan owners, but only time will show if that will be the case. If clan owners are going to try the same strong arm tactics that have been used in the past, this mod is already dead. Just a matter of time.

As for less admin intervention, I completely agree as we've previously discussed. By the end of PW's life cycle, the rules had become rather disgusting. Administration teams, yours and mine included over the years, tried to graft the rules to every specific situation. The unfortunate aspect of PW's community is that everyone wanted a one up on everyone else, so many tried to abuse the system/rules in place. More and more exploits, led to further and more extensive editions of the ruleset. As an example, I don't feel as though cart glitching/blocking really needed to be explicitly stated, but heaven forbid we didn't add it.

With any sort of influx of new players, a ruleset of 7+ pages from the past will surely drive them off.

I don't expect this mod in any sort of timely fashion, simply because TW is TW. Time will tell. But any attempt at a 'timeline' for development at this point is far too premature.

Edits; trash typing at 6 am.