Recent content by Lamias

Uruk34 said:

Just my opinion, but I think this is actually one of the key issues with implementing "pure" learn-by-doing into this style of game (as it stands currently). While something like the elder scrolls has a similar system, it's filled with interesting, linear, early story arcs that make collecting that 1000th piece of iron ore feel less like a chore and more organic. It also has a wide array of earlygame enemies, each with unique weaknesses, strengths, and movesets to keep you engaged as you grind out the levels.

In Bannerlord I feel like I've already done the majority of earlygame quest-types (I know more are incoming, but I'm talking as it is at present) and I'm not sure they even gave any experience? Also there are what, 10 variations (at most) of bandit that you'll continually be farming to level up? And these won't develop or change as you get later into the game, as they would in TES. Given that Bannerlord is an inherently very different game from TES that's pretty much expected, but it makes shoehorning in one aspect of TES that really relies on the rest of the game design pretty jarring to me.

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It is a good idea to implement more mechanics to level up and stop the grinding (examples from WB mods: Working in villages, hunting, mining ore or chopping wood etc).

And of course I agree that quests should be more than the basic 10 that we are used to, and of course they should give XP. Also I am a fan of random events that make me choose and get rewards or get in trouble (like in Brytenwalda mod)

But these implementations don't mean that the leveling system must go to the old warband. Why shouldn't bannerlord include those "interesting, linear, early story arcs" like in Elder Scrolls games that you mentioned? Skyrim came out in 2011 I think. We are in 2020. It is possible.

Jhaerik said:

I'd much rather be out fighting battles, to earn xp, to learn skills, that help me more effectively fight bigger battles, to earn xp, to learn skills, that help me more effecively...

You get the ideal? That's Warband in a nutshell.

Bannerlord in a nutshell? Buy stuff from merchants and click craft a few times, then wait while watching youtube, repeat for ten hours. Then ride in circles for a few hours while buying lots of food types.... then play a barter mini game for a few hours.... then play the trade mini game for a few hours...then play the auto resolve mini game for a few hours...

It's just ****ing boring man. It gets worse on replay as well.

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That gameplay that you call boring, for some others might be awesome because they actually want to play a trader. Or a blacksmith. And that is what these professions do. Buy items - craft/sell - repeat. Not everyone plays the game like you.
I accept that it's boring for you, so maybe you should focus on fighting battles. No one is stopping you. And your battle skills will increase.

But Warband's system was unfair to people who liked to roleplay as traders and enterprise owners. Warband forced everyone to grab a sword and fight, because that was the only way to get XP. Now traders have an equal chance of gaining XP, and that for me is good for alternate playthroughs.

And please don't say that the game is called "Mount and Blade", you are meant to hack and slash etc...

1) It's a sandbox
2) The mechanics for alternate playthroughs exist (auto-resolve battles with troops only, making profit from trade, owning enterprises, crime and gangs etc). Evidently it can be more than hack and slash. The devs want it to or they wouldn't put these in.

The system should be rethought and rebalanced, but it's still a step forward as a philosophy. It makes you choose who you want to be. You can't be everything and be successfull. (Well you can, it just takes too much time)

Negative said:

That has nothing to do with balance. The simple truth is that there's no gameloop to master with smithing. Crafting the first blade is literally just like crafting the 10th. So what do you want to be rewarded for? There's no learning curve, no investment other than time - through repetition.

But the whole discussion is deviating from the skill system (with bad caps, overtly complex point systems and it's overal problems) towards smithing speficially. So let me just tell you, that yes, i expect to bypass that system. As it's not rewarding anything. And i only think it's resonable to be able to find and hire actual smiths to forge weapons regarding to the specifications of their liege/employer at some point in the game - even if it would costs thousands of denars.

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I would like a learning curve as well. That's up for discussion and brainstorming.

But, by your logic, there isn't a learning curve in battles either!!

Fighting your first big battle is like fighting your 100th one. The skillset that you have to practice is exactly the same. Block attack run - block attack run.

Maybe you should bypass that system as well...

Negative said:

I definately love killing looters and becoming able to smith instead of having to craft 1000 useless swords with a forced 'sit around' period.

There are two parts here people interlink - unnessecarily so.
1) what gives XP - XP for trading/crafting/whatnot is imo a great idea and should be done.
2) Skills specific XP - in trading skill can only be earned by trading.

Now skill specific XP is a big hinderance often enough. You can't bypass levels where the skill sucks. Devs have to give enough options for each skill to actually level said skill and need to design the whole game around that (which so far Taleworld has failed to do).
Or to put it differently - i much prefer bashing the heads in because of the core game loop and then invest said XP into Smithing, than smithing 10.000 daggers to become able to actually design a weapon i'd like to design. So far i can't even judge the smithing system and if it's worth it, beause i haven't reached even 75 points in it.

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I think you are over reacting. Of course no one likes to craft 10000 daggers. That's why the mechanisms must be rebalanced and optimized.

Would you object to this system, if it worked as follows?

To unlock tier 1 blades, craft or smelt 10 blades
To unlock tier 1 pommels, craft or smelt 10 pommels
etc...

Don't tell me that crafting 10-20 items is tedious to you...

Also, you think you can jump into the game and design a good sword at once? Crafting a good sword for your level should be a reward for sitting and trying to learn the craft, not something you can achieve in the first 20 minutes of the game.

I am confused.

If the current system gets optimized and doesn't feel grindy anymore, will you all like it?

Or do you prefer to have your character become a master trader simply because he killed 100 looters? Because that's what the old system was. Sure, it was WORKING, but it wasn't GOOD in my opinion.

A GOOD system for me is a system that rewards me only if I try. Finding good trade deals and making profit makes me better at trading, and that makes me happy.

I am sorry but I don't want to have a lvl 40 godlike character that is the best fighter, commander, pathfinder, surgeon, engineer and trader in all of Calradia. This kills all the fun. If this happens, I want it to happen because I actually tried to learn all these things.

The new system needs MUCH improvement and optimization to decrease grinding and make skills matter, but its philosophy is better for me.

Archonsod said:

Which is where the realism argument comes in - if you want even a basic understanding of medicine, you spend a few years reading books. I doubt there's many people who'd consider that fun gameplay

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You are thinking of the university and modern way of life. In older times (medieval and ancient) learning a profession came with practice and with apprenticeship. The village or town physician would take in an apprentice and would "school" him by examining patients everyday. Especially before books were widely available, coming across notes or parchments of other physicians was extremely rare (apprenticeship would be a fun gameplay in my opinion)

Archonsod said:

It's also still suffering the same problem; all they've changed is that you now have to kill 100 enemies to have the potential to practice engineering and improve at it, and once you've hit the limits of your potential in engineering the best way to raise that potential is ... killing 100 enemies.

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I am sorry, I don't understand what you are saying (english is not my native language). If you want to be good at engineering you build siege engines, you don't kill 100 men... (?)

Archonsod said:

You don't though, that's the problem. If you just have your character do it themselves they'll become skilled soon enough, and the incentive is to do it that way since the skill gains are necessary to level up so you can increase the cap on the skills you're interested in. That extends to companions too, particularly since they're usually of a higher level. It kind of speaks to the issues with the system in that if you hire a doctor companion, the most efficient way of improving their medical skills tends to be to have them do everything but medicine.

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I still don't understand. If I hire a doctor companion, how will he get better if he kills enemies in battle? His weapon stats will increase, not his medicine. I might have missed something from what you say... (?)

The new leveling system is fine.
It's the epitome of realism: If you want to be good at something, you practice it. (And "realism" is an argument, because maybe some people have more fun with realism)
It makes absolutely no sense that I can be a good engineer or a surgeon by killing 100 enemies. If I want to get good in medicine, I practice medicine.
I am sorry but with Warband's skill system after 50-60 hours your character became a godlike being that somehow was amazing in combat, commanding and training troops, medicine, pathfinding, engineering and trading. This made the game very easy and boring. Now your character will have to specialize in some sectors, and in others you will have to assign companions. This makes the game more challenging.

Also, the new system forces you to make decisions: Should I sell the weapons I looted on the last battle to gain money, or should I smelt them to get better at smithing but earn no money at all?
With the old system I would just sell the weapons without a second thought and at the same time I would get good at smithing by investing skill points. Very OP.

I agree though that it needs major rebalancing (it needs to be a bit faster and leveling companions needs to be fixed).

Another amazing blog.

This time they made a blog in order to inform us that the game remains EXACTLY the same as Warband...

Nothing new implemented...

I came back to read the 100th blog. It didn't disappoint!!

Next week please show us the specs of your computers and what type of air conditioning you have in your offices.

Seriously now:

I hope Taleworlds is watching these forums. The number of people in discontent here is growing. More and more comments are starting to make fun of TW, or express their frustration for the slow development of this game.

TW, you are gonna lose much of your client base if you don't do something fast.

Well done, another truly inspiring blog.


Ideas for next week:


A new, refined "Options" screen that will take the game to another level.

A great and inspired "Load Game" screen, for loading our saved progress faster than ever.

A quick blog which will inform us that the game has Swords and Shields (oh my God i am so anxious if this is true).

Maybe a blog about what type of wood blacksmiths use for crafting spears in Calradia.

A blog about how you are not still bankrupt from developing a game for the past 6 years and not being anywhere near it's release.


If I think of other great ideas like the ones I am seeing in this blog for the past 3-4 months, I will comment again!!

"In our previous games battle tactics were quite basic in that AI armies would either launch themselves into full-out assaults or sit back and wait for the player to attack. "

(..)

"Some lords might be more cautious and prefer to seize the high ground before setting up in a defensive formation, whereas other lords might be a little more rash, putting pressure onto their opponents by committing to an early assault."

So essentially, in Warband the AI chose to attack or wait out, but in Bannerlord the improved AI will choose to attack or wait out.

This is a huge improvemhahahahahhaha!

Duh said:

Lamias said:

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1) How should hunting work? Just a worldmap dice roll? Or a deep simulation that ends up being a game of its own right? The latter would be a significant amount of work - if it's meant to be done well rather than Dynasty Warrior style. What sets the bounty system apart from hunting down bandit parties? (Fight->Money->Rinse&Repeat) What do you mean by "working in enterprises"? Simulating full production procedures and synching scene time with worldmap time (i.e. entirely redesigning the game) and letting the player "craft" goods step by step? How would that ever be anything but a gimmick in SP?

2) What should it do beyond impacting the funds of the AI? And where are you getting 5000 denar cheats for the AI from?

3) Hard to judge what is and isn't there atm. I do think early and mid game could benefit from some Quests in this regard, though we cant be sure whether or not it could be fitted in the larger simulation in any notable way. Late game, it needs to be abstracted away from direct player action (sneak into/shadow/steal) to avoid tedious micro management as you manage your kingdom.

4)Could you elaborate on this? Do you just mean that Quests in general should have a variety of meaningful outcomes? Or do you want pop-up events that force the player to make decisions? (Could become quite annoying/repetitive even with a hundred events.) What should NPCs decide and based on what logic?

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1) These features don't need to be a game of their own, for God's sake. There is the concept of mini-games as well. They could implement them as follows:

Hunting could work as Brytenwalda did it: On the world map there were packs of boars, wolves and deer, that were represented like parties that wander around in the woods or on mountains. The player could attack them and go on the battlefield, where he could kill some of them and take their food and furs etc. Then he could sell them for profit, or keep the food to feed his party with 0 expenses. It's not a game-breaking change, it just adds variety and a role-playing aspect.

Bounty system could work if there were bounty hunters everywhere and there were ranks that you earn as you complete missions. Higher ranks = chase more difficult enemies that are harder to find than the nervous man behind the barn. Also enemy NPCs could offer a bounty on your head and you would encounter bounty hunters from time to time.

Working on jobs = Right now, the only jobs you can do (aside from quests) is Goods Transporter and Caravan Bodyguard. Imagine if you could hunt in the wilds on behalf of your lord, or if you could be a guard in a city and deal with criminal scum, or be a part of a Lord's party, like in the Freelancer Mod. You won't do these for a long time ofc, but they would add some immersion.

Enterprises = Right now, enterprises are VERY faceless and null. You open an enterprise and disappear in the other end of the world, and the enterprise makes you money. Zero interaction, Zero gameplay on this. They could offer much more to players who want to be traders and not warlords, like daily routines, production problems, problems with the workers, robberies that lower production etc. Of course it could all be set to automatic, and just make money every week for the guys that want to go to war. But if someone wants to be a trader, he pretty much has to wander around and trade and make enterprises that work forever alone.

Automatic trade routes (like in Blood and Gold: Caribbean): Not all towns can produce everything. If the economic aspect of the game was overhauled, you could set up automatic trade routes and earn much money as a trader. Let's face it, a trader gameplay will earn you 10% money of what a Warlord gameplay will. Looting a single village is like having 15 enterprises. So it's kind of a single path for everyone: Be a warlord. No other gameplay choice is encouraged. So this is not really a sandbox, because I feel silly earning 200 gold in every trade trip, where I could just loot a village and earn 10.000.

2) For the economy, I mean that protecting the caravans should have an impact in the city's prosperity. Destroying caravans too. Right now you can't target all the caravans that go to a city because you will be at war with every faction of the game. You need to be able to do this stealthily, so the caravans won't know who attacked them. Robbers always covered their characteristics in order not to be recognized. Also, I didn't like that the lord was replenishing his armies so easily even though I looted all his villages and left him with a castle. It meant that the AI was cheating.

3) Espionage would work in early and mid game. Later you could hire some assassins-spies to do the work for you. If they have good stats, they will do the job correctly, if not they would die or get captured and reveal who paid them. Imagine killing a gifted lord with your blade in his room because his party has 800 soldiers and you can't hope to defeat them in battle. His soldiers would be captained by another man, less able.
Also, the option to steal from NPCs would be good, it's another way to make money that would add to the immersion and variety.

4) I mean everything.

Random events like pop-ups where you have to choose what to do.
Hearing a rumor and going to investigate (interesting rumors, not this garbage we had at Warband: "I heard that two lords are enemies now" SO WHAT? I can't do anything about it.
A conspiracy system: Assassination attempts, attempts to dethrone, to take fiefs, to accuse lords of false things, intrigues in general (it's a medieval world dammit)
Quests that have many outcomes. That may be happening in Bannerlord, we will wait and see. But the results need to be more than -2 relation with one party or +2 relation with other party. They need to have bigger impact on the world so you cannot take these decisions lightly.

Things that happen in life around you:
You encounter a woman that is about to be raped, do you save her, ignore her or join the rapers?
You encounter slaves that escaped, do you return them, sell them or free them?
You hear about a princess that is being held hostage, what do you do?
You hear about a shop that was robbed, do you offer to find the robbers?
You hear about a caravan that transports very valuable objects, what do you do?

These are just things that I thought about 10 minutes ago. Imagine what TW could do if they allowed people here to send them ideas for quests and events.

And something more: I don't understand why all this would make MB a different game. You are completely free to ignore everything I said and just play your regular hack and slash. But if someone wants something deeper and with roleplaying elements, why can't this stuff be present? Like in Skyrim there was a college of Wizards. You could be a master wizard, or you could ignore the college completely. It didn't break the game. That's the spirit TW should follow in my opinion. Offer much content, so it will be truly a sandbox game.

Right now it's not sandbox. It has a pre-determined path: Become mercenary - become vassal - become king, everything through wars. No separate path for Master Traders, Master Assassins, Religious Berserkers, Mayors-Guildsmen etc.

The game world needs to evolve and shape itself regardless of what you do. That's the feature of an open world gameplay. The world doesn't wait for you to shape it. If it stays like Warband, I am afraid that, besides castles changing hands nothing else will happen. It's like Calradia is standing still. 

Duh said:

You would have a better chance of getting what you want, if you were to specify what you would like to see in Bannerlord rather than describe what was in Warband.

I.e. what alternative ways/options of play would you like to see to reduce repetition/linearity? What do you think would increase your immersion?

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I have said many times in many blogs what I think increases immersion and reduces linearity. Actually, I think I posted here 10-20 posts ago.

The game needs to be much more than hack and slash:

1) It needs to find much more ways to earn money in early levels, and not just kill bandits - trade loot - do quests - use the arena. (hunting, bounty system, jobs, working in enterprises etc). Variety is GREAT.

2) It needs to let us use economy as a BIG weapon (and not just reduce the income of an NPC lord that gets 5000 denars anyway from cheats to make up for the dumb AI)

3) Espionage, spy missions, discover information, sabotage stuff etc

4) Events that make you choose, and your decisions impact the game world. NPCs need to decide things too, to make each playthrough unique.

Just some thoughts that came to me in 3 minutes and would make the game feel more alive.

I think hes saying that people think Warband is dying because it does not have a story and is linear in gameplay, but the real reason is the passing of time.

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Not really, I don't care about a story. I like sandbox games, but I like them deep and with variety. In MB no matter what role you want to play, you end up doing the same things.

I tried to start PoP again last week, which was an awesome mod, much more interesting than Native Warband for sure.

I didn't even last for 2 hours. I kept thinking that I will do the following:

Early game: Kill bandits and trade - do repetitive quests - join repetitive tournaments.

Mid game: Be a repetitive mercenary - be a repetitive vassal - build repetitive businesses, the profits of which make absolutely no sense - Acquire fiefs and build repetitively.

Late game: Create my own kingdom, with the same (repetitive) ways to achieve total dominance.

The game is VERY linear. VERY. No matter what play style you choose, you end up doing 95% the same things. Nothing happens that will excite me and immerse me. It's almost like playing TETRIS, just throwing the pieces together to fit.

It was very cool 5-6 years ago, but having played games like Skyrim or the Witcher, I believe we deserve something more from our beloved Warband.

You entirely forgot about Clans, Minor Factions, expanded world map, new factions, and biggest of all, playing as your children! These, I would say, are extreme improvements over warband that increase replayability and the roleplaying aspect.

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With all due respect, these are not gameplay features nor mechanics. These are just expanded content, which frankly, it's easily added. The mod 1257 AD had over 20 factions.

Clans, minor factions and expanded world map are a joke. Is this all you want from a game with the potential of Bannerlord? Playing Warband on a bigger map with 10 enemies instead of 6?

And playing as your children... Please... That may be cool, but it's irrelevant to what I am saying. Yes I will play as my kid only to get bored in the same dull world as his father got bored and probably killed himself...

You wanna know what are GOOD and DEEP mechanics that keep the game interesting? The following features from known Warband mods:

A concept of love - hate - fear, which influences how people treat you
Religion
Ships, naval combat
Hunting system
Bounty system
Diplomacy Mod
Freelancer Mod

And some personal suggestions, that feature A LOT in other (decent) games:

Random events, choices, decisions. This is the flavor that keeps an RPG game interesting, role playing, you know?
Dealing with issues of your kingdom (judging and passing sentences, solving problems etc)
Being able to work on jobs (brytenwalda had this, it's boring to always trade and kill bandits to earn money, very linear
Weather that influences the world (rain fertilizes crops, snow = penalty on morale etc)
Economic - espionage wars possible, not just destroying kingdoms because you are a Godlike swordsman with 500 HP and you don't die.

But noo.. We get more factions and playing as our children. In the same hollow world....

Warband was amazing because it was released on 2010. We had other expectations and standards back then. Today if a game wants to be competitive it has to offer much more than this...