[Sub-mod]PoP3.8.4Horse archer AI enhancement for companions and noldors

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Gorvex said:
The player doing huge circles on a fast horse while shooting can f*ck them really bad :???: :
Can this AI tweak make those horse archers aim more accurately on a moving target? :ohdear:

No every player is this hardcore. Using him as an example is like saying dark souls 3 is easy because a guy beat it without getting hit once
 
I used to play on integrated one (Intel HD4000 from i5-3570k) quite successfully. Reduce screen resolution, switch off not essential graphics settings and you should be able to survive.

Edit: This bit worries me as well:
the script optimize lancer's AI by only calculating nearby enemies instead of all enemies
So players lancers behave in advanced way on the whole battlefield, but enemies only "next" to the player? Is that fair?
 
English is not my native language so I may expressed it wrong.

The old script makes a lancer calculate the whole battlefield to decide how to swap weapons, which is not necessary, the new one makes them only calculate the nearby battlefield , that enemy means the enemy to the lancer, not the enemy of player.

About the performance the script may influenced, at least I have no Fps reduce when I testing 50 noldor nobles VS 150 kiergurads.
And for real play, it is rare to see more than 100 troops with that script in a battle.
 
The Noldor units imo need every tweak on the AI possible to make those QG investments more worthwhile and to make the fights with them even harder.

Yeah, currently fights against Noldor are way too easy. Noobs use heavy cavalry or CKO, but I just take my band of pikemen, berserkers, and fierdsvain heavy archers, and knock Noldor Nobles out with just a starter club. I don't even spend QG on Noldor warriors because they die faster than my empire levy recruits, and kill less people.

They are meant to be the most lethal forces in Pendor, right?

Clearly they are. That's why they live in the woods of Laria and Elacrai, instead of dominating Pendor. It's all part of their genius elven plan, as the godly superior wise noble race they are.

And still, look how the Dread Legion can kick their ass if you don't interfere with orders. Or look how easily the player can trample the combined forces of Ithilrandir and Aeldarian with a full-cavalry force

I agree. Dread Legion are nothing but the elite of the Snake Cult, the strongest undead Anaconda Knights, the most devout Serpent Priestesses, and the most fearless and obedient Dread Legion undead infantry. They should not have any chance to ever taked down even a single 100-strong Noldor patrol, let alone a Noldor lord.

And yeah, it's crazy. How can a mere 869 knights take on 1100+ elves and possibly win? That's way too easy. You can get 800+ knights and enough renown to field them all way too fast, all it takes is a mere 1000 days or even less. it's practically cheating, how easy it is.

To be honest, I would even consider to go as far as making all Noldor units unkillable (but could be KO-d ofc). This way the Qualis Gem investments would really be appealing, and Noldor parties would be able to completely regenerate if they aren't fully defeated.

I agree. All Noldors should be unkillable. Full stop.
Then they all automatically become prisoners and we no longer need to worry about blunt weapons when fighting them. It's a wonderful idea.

And I have a question regarding the performance of Noldor horse archers on the battlefield: can this AI tweak in any way make it harder to solo them? The player doing huge circles on a fast horse while shooting can f*ck them really bad

I concur. Noldor bows should be hitscan, or at least have their accuracy, fire rate and projectile speed doubled. Or tripled.
No human should be allowed to abuse their personal skill to defeat our elven overlords.
 
Lazy Buttons said:
The Noldor units imo need every tweak on the AI possible to make those QG investments more worthwhile and to make the fights with them even harder.

Yeah, currently fights against Noldor are way too easy. Noobs use heavy cavalry or CKO, but I just take my band of pikemen, berserkers, and fierdsvain heavy archers, and knock Noldor Nobles out with just a starter club. I don't even spend QG on Noldor warriors because they die faster than my empire levy recruits, and kill less people.

They are meant to be the most lethal forces in Pendor, right?

Clearly they are. That's why they live in the woods of Laria and Elacrai, instead of dominating Pendor. It's all part of their genius elven plan, as the godly superior wise noble race they are.

And still, look how the Dread Legion can kick their ass if you don't interfere with orders. Or look how easily the player can trample the combined forces of Ithilrandir and Aeldarian with a full-cavalry force

I agree. Dread Legion are nothing but the elite of the Snake Cult, the strongest undead Anaconda Knights, the most devout Serpent Priestesses, and the most fearless and obedient Dread Legion undead infantry. They should not have any chance to ever taked down even a single 100-strong Noldor patrol, let alone a Noldor lord.

And yeah, it's crazy. How can a mere 869 knights take on 1100+ elves and possibly win? That's way too easy. You can get 800+ knights and enough renown to field them all way too fast, all it takes is a mere 1000 days or even less. it's practically cheating, how easy it is.

To be honest, I would even consider to go as far as making all Noldor units unkillable (but could be KO-d ofc). This way the Qualis Gem investments would really be appealing, and Noldor parties would be able to completely regenerate if they aren't fully defeated.

I agree. All Noldors should be unkillable. Full stop.
Then they all automatically become prisoners and we no longer need to worry about blunt weapons when fighting them. It's a wonderful idea.

And I have a question regarding the performance of Noldor horse archers on the battlefield: can this AI tweak in any way make it harder to solo them? The player doing huge circles on a fast horse while shooting can f*ck them really bad

I concur. Noldor bows should be hitscan, or at least have their accuracy, fire rate and projectile speed doubled. Or tripled.
No human should be allowed to abuse their personal skill to defeat our elven overlords.

The sarcasm level here is over 9000!!!!  :iamamoron:

No, seriously, Noldors are decadent, skinny tree hughers, not demi-gods....
And having pointy hears doesn't imply that the brain is bigger (or better used)...

Edit : Oh and btw, most lethal force in Pendor => Demonic Magus (and PC  :mrgreen:)
 
About dread legion, I don't think they should be beaten by 100 noldors, don't look down the elite force of SC, the noldor's home and masters were destroyed by SC's creator as well as every magic creatures. (I personally treat Azi dahaka the slaaaash in PoP :fruity:)
Last but not least, in 3.8.4 one single noldor lord can still kick dread legion's ass, just tell their cavalry to hold their fire and everyone  chaaaarge is ok. :wink:
 
@Lazy Buttons: Ok-ok, maybe I exaggerated a little... :roll: And we all have different desires regarding the difficulty after all. Plus I obviously didn't take into account unkillable Noldors making prisoner gathering too easy, so probably not a good idea indeed :oops:. The only thing I think we can agree on is that buying Noldor units for Qualis Gems is really not a worthwhile investment currently (in the long run). Hopefully this will change with those Noldor Trade Goods a little :grin:. Btw, if you would ever want to try something really crazy, try out Doghotel's Brainy Bots submod :iamamoron: That's just insane, kung-fu masters everywhere... :dead:
 
Gorvex said:
@Lazy Buttons: Ok-ok, maybe I exaggerated a little... :roll: And we all have different desires regarding the difficulty after all. Plus I obviously didn't take into account unkillable Noldors making prisoner gathering too easy, so probably not a good idea indeed :oops:. The only thing I think we can agree on is that buying Noldor units for Qualis Gems is really not a worthwhile investment currently (in the long run). Hopefully this will change with those Noldor Trade Goods a little :grin:. Btw, if you would ever want to try something really crazy, try out Doghotel's Brainy Bots submod :iamamoron: That's just insane, kung-fu masters everywhere... :dead:
That submod is amazing, and can work for companions only :fruity: Ya know what I mean.
However the problem seems to be that the author didn't give the source out.
 
Latis the Darkgryphon said:
That submod is amazing, and can work for companions only :fruity: Ya know what I mean.
Yeah, that's true (I tried that), but forget about winning tournaments on an average player's level then... Because all of the NPC-s are affected as well if you choose that option. But the good thing is that the submod can be costumized in-game super easily, and you can turn it off during tournaments if you had enough frustration.
 
made a brief testing, the script botched down my save-game, had to remove it.

It may require a new game to work properly...

I've also noticed it added the Battle Mini-map, glitched, but it's there when you apply this tweak

Gorvex said:
1) Noldor units are very expensive, yet no one buys them for qualis gems after realizing that they can be killed quite fast, especially when those Noldor horse archers charge in enemy lines blindly. And we are talking about investing Qualis Gems into units. Currently we are better off with exchanging QG-s into permanent stuff like elixirs and weapons, since those won't be lost if we play carefully. The Noldor units imo need every tweak on the AI possible to make those QG investments more worthwhile and to make the fights with them even harder. They are meant to be the most lethal forces in Pendor, right? And still, look how the Dread Legion can kick their ass if you don't interfere with orders. Or look how easily the player can trample the combined forces of Ithilrandir and Aeldarian with a full-cavalry force:
To be honest, I would even consider to go as far as making all Noldor units unkillable (but could be KO-d ofc). This way the Qualis Gem investments would really be appealing, and Noldor parties would be able to completely regenerate if they aren't fully defeated.
And I have a question regarding the performance of Noldor horse archers on the battlefield: can this AI tweak in any way make it harder to solo them? The player doing huge circles on a fast horse while shooting can f*ck them really bad :???: :
Can this AI tweak make those horse archers aim more accurately on a moving target? :ohdear:

This is not entirely true... I've used in multiple occasions 2 QG to get 2 hosts of Noldor Rangers, by doing so, in the past at least, I've managed to start my own kingdom through 3 consecutive sieges. To make things go smoother in this regard I've also named 2 followers into vassals in those cases rushing straight out from Early game into Own Kingdom (really hard to do) and the only thing that allowed me to do that in these cases were the noldor troops in all honesty (if you host 20 noldor archers + spam raven archers combined with Barclay Sappers, you are ought to win any siege, and if you have the numbers, you'll rofl-stomp the AI by playing it correctly. The main difference between PoP and other mods is that it requires mostly basic vanilla strategies to win, reason why is because the Formations within PoP are bad due to not having attack into formation commands, so they are only really good to hold, bad and useless to attack, hence why so many people think Wedge formation is useless and etc.)

Anyway, the biggest turn-downs for me in Pendor are these little details, lack of formation attack commands, lords amassing new armies after being defeated way too fast, and garrisons not respecting fief income when it becomes negative... Basically the AI in Pendor cheats more than in any other mod, because more often than not, they'll have garrisons that would make them bankrupt, yet they still managed to recover 200+ troops in 3 or 4 days without a single penny with them.

Then there's the inconsistency with the Letter Start (which has also always bothered me) because if you go with that, you'll have to break off from roleplay (go off-character) to circumvent botched early meta, and in the sequence: farm XP, money -> become mercenary -> vassal -> conquer lands in the name of others -> amass relations and troops -> then you can continue the RPing this start suggests. To me that's a massive immersion killer.  :dead:

Well, I've said too much, I'm off again before I'm burned to the stake  :iamamoron:
 
For immersion of letter start(last heir start) I think there could be that setting:
With the letter you do not drop relation with 3 kingdoms by 5, but 50 so that these kingdoms won't let you go with 800 denar, your relationship with these three kingdoms will be locked at -50 as well so you have to fight, even you become a vassal of other kingdoms you are still hostile to these kingdoms.
Or, you won't be hostile to three kingdoms due to the letter, but after you create the chapter of Griffin, you show up your royal blood, you will be the hostile of three kingdoms, if you are the vassal of one of them, that would means you will be a "traitor" to be independent directly, a good independent feature right? :iamamoron:
 
Latis the Darkgryphon said:
For immersion of letter start(last heir start) I think there could be that setting:
With the letter you do not drop relation with 3 kingdoms by 5, but 50 so that these kingdoms won't let you go with 800 denar, your relationship with these three kingdoms will be locked at -50 as well so you have to fight, even you become a vassal of other kingdoms you are still hostile to these kingdoms.
Or, you won't be hostile to three kingdoms due to the letter, but after you create the chapter of Griffin, you show up your royal blood, you will be the hostile of three kingdoms, if you are the vassal of one of them, that would means you will be a "traitor" to be independent directly, a good independent feature right? :iamamoron:

The letter start is by far the worst already, and you want to push it further? That's insane...
All other starts give you extra skill points and attributes, Letter gives you nearly NADA. Which by itself make it foolish to choose from, but here ya go, have this "free" griffon chapter because it's not like QG are unlimited right? Wrong... Although rare, QGs are easy to farm at mid-late game, which makes spamming Griffon Chapters easy but bothersome, or in other words, straight out boring. So what this start gives you really? Harder early game, bad character build for some gimmick that leaves you with less harassing grind at mid-late, summing up, it gives you nothing and punishes you for it...

for that start to work, or at least be attractive, it should give 99 rtr right off the bat, coupled with extra leadership skills and persuasion. I mean, it wouldn't make sense having extra STR / AGI for being an heir, but it should make it so the player is the only legitimate ruler of pendor, giving a boost to convert lords and undeniable credibility if the player founds a kingdom. So, these would be the only sensible fixes to give that start right on.

In the past, and as of now, I had a bunch of ideas to tie-up this start with epic questing so that you found your kingdom without the grinding, but rather by completing needed tasks to prove that you are the true heir. In other words, allow the player to start the game and without any sort of grinding but instead with fun but extensive questing to found his kingdom jumping straight into mid game. In this case the adjustment on stats wouldn't be needed. Instead, we get punished straight out, and we have the immersion shattered by the forceful grinding you're put into (joining a kingdom as the true heir doesn't make any sense, even more so farming rtr with conventional means, companions lie and make cases, a true heir doesn't need that, even less so to get married).

So there's that, it's a flawed design feature that serves no purpose but to pretend it's there, in other words, the meta makes it suck. Not even starting as a noble is needed in this mod because you are going to be forced into insane grinding anyway, so to become one is a walk-in-the-park, for the advantage of starting as one is none (can't even join tournaments without grinding at least some renown).

So, if by any means, if the player wants to make an Roleplaying adherent to the lore given (by the story told on character creation), they'll be blocked of doing it in favor of arbitrary meta demanded by both some of the players and some of the devs "I don't use dis! Dis too easy, make it harder! Still don't use dat!". The starts should provide different experiences, instead they're made so meta talks louder. There are obvious starting options for any play-through, and what defines those are combat due to the unbalanced AI units and the OPed (present in vanilla too) horse-archery. WB's cheap, when it comes to that regard. Crossbows are useless compared to bows, for they do the same thing but much worse. Thrown weapons are only good when they can shatter shields for infantry attacks, yet in PoP shattering a shield is nearly impossible, so it's only useful to kill a few horses on a cavalry charge, which doesn't help, specially when the AI aims exclusively at humanoids.

Couple those details with the starting options, and you'll 99% of the time have people picking Nomad Leader -> Hunting -> Hunter -> Unfortunate events / Too many enemies. Or, if they so chose to go more melee, it's the classic M&B start picking with the last option always being better with those 2 already mentioned.

Then we have many other factors, like how OPed Heavy Cavalry is, and the massive advantage they give to both players and AI when amassed in big numbers. You only have access to 2 QGs too, which makes going for the hidden mines a wasted effort until you reach at least 3 QGs (Strange Runed Weapons are not much better than merchant-sold counter-parts). Given there's only the access of 2, and one of them being under pure RNG, makes it so you'll be either storing it for an undetermined amount of time so you can get the weapon, or you are saving it for late game, or using it to give a small boost at early-mid game (stats, or getting a KO if you are a vassal, it won't help you found a new kingdom at all). Sure, I've managed to use these 2 to get Noldor to start my kingdom, but never the less, it was much harder than the cheesy ways of joining as a vassal and eventually going independent after building relations within an extensive waiting game while you grind.

So there's where I perceive most of the flaws in this mod: combat's bad because it's too similar to vanilla, same goes for battle control (troops are much less responsive than in other mods that use superior OSPs), then you have an diplomacy not properly adjusted to the mod, as well as more fief features that are only good late game. This makes the game way too grind centered, and much less fun than it could be, for almost everything only becomes useful at late game, but at late game everything's too easy and meaningless so it's usefulness becomes negligible by the time it should pay-off, making it frustrating. On one PM I've sent do Michi about a year ago I was talking about how Late game was meh, and made some proposals as to how to improve it, needless to say that I was mostly ignored. I've even offered the sword model I had made for ACoK that I've mentioned recently, but he straight-out dismissed it with what sounded like excuses. That's why I am a bit mad at the moment, I mean, even when you offer help they refuse, this mod, much like persino, imho are both works of pure vanity, not works of people wanting to improve upon M&B. If they can't see these flaws, also, means that they know little about game design, and most likely carry bad tastes when it comes to what's good and what isn't good. Even VC (which is flawed as hell) provides for a better experience. Unfortunately, the best part of this mod, the lore and creativity behind it, are botched by the meta...  :facepalm:

Well, but that's my opinion, regardless of it being an educated opinion, it's sort of personal, so I can't really demand anything much less discredit their work. The mod is good, but could be so much better that it makes me feel as if it's bad at it's current state. Unfortunately for me, I am an potato when it comes to moding M&B, so what I should do is to either accept it as it is and try to enjoy it, or leave it. And in the end, I've left it last year because of those exact same things, but much more so, because of the "anti-cheat" system they've added... Whenever I feel like a mod's bad at some stage of the game, I tend to skip that stage by cheating, if I am punished for cheating, I lose the will to play it because to "cheat without cheating" within the possible alternatives, I'd need to make countless calculations on how much XP, rtr, relations with lords, items, money, etc would be possible to gather over X period of time. That's why it becomes undesirable, I mean, skipping's about saving time and energy rather than going for OPed stuff. Sometimes I would skip massive battles I would win with cheats because I wasn't feeling like doing the same roflstomp over and over again, in PoP, you can't do that haha

EDIT PS: Btw, sometimes you take too much dmg in battle because of OPed AI units, making any movement mistakes very punishing, in these cases, specially when I'm not in combat myself, but rather micro-managing troops, I tend to use the heal. In PoP, that's also not an option.  :iamamoron:

This brings me back to my criticism regarding how vanilla battles feel here, I mean, here it's about baiting the AI and using archers in a cheap meta-centered way because combat and unit control are just as flawed...

PS 2.0: In 1257ad I manage, with the worst starting stats for combat, to beat enemy lords in tournaments with crappy equipment, because there the combat is more challenging without buffing the AI with nonsensical cheating. Game is harder than PoP, but you can overcome it with pure skill, it's not about gear, yet gear helps. In PoP it's all about power-gaming and grinding, not a fun experience, and skill is meaningless.
 
xdj1nn said:
snip
PS: So far my attempts to join with PoP's team have failed, so I might give up soon and move on to make my own mod.  :???:
May I ask you how your own Warband mod is going? Or actually any game/mod? I would really like to play them, because it is obvious to me that we could learn a lot from your work.

P.S. You keep mentioning this sword all the time. POP has about 370 melee weapons, which share common textures. What, in your opinion, should we do with a single sword?
 
Thank you for your insightful opinion on what you think of PoP.

We're sorry its not up to your standards of how gameplay should be.

We're sorry that you have a hard time playing it compared to other modules.

PoP is almost a decade year old creation with lots of people, time, and hours spent crafting it to what it is today. I think what we have is a great module that people have come from all corners to love and appreciate. Even enjoy over the base game.

We are a team of worldly individuals who aren't doing this for money. So your criticism is appreciated, but that doesn't change our outlook or how we plan to proceed with the mod. But this is a hobby and we do it for the fun and experience it gives other players. We don't owe you or anyone anything.


We hope you can give PoP another chance or hope you enjoy your transition onto other modules. Because we got your point countless times. I don't think we really need any more of your personal feelings on how the mod should be.

As for rejecting your offer of assets, I have every right to do so. We have already got a team of individuals who were devoting their time to making new assets. So actually act like an adult and take it as it is. Your offer was not needed, get over it.

You have some sort of ego problem, considering that you think we don't know what we're doing. Last I checked, we are making one of the most popular modules for Warband.

You are not.
 
Hmm this thread is about an AI script I guess :ohdear:
So I would prefer the discussion keep on the script itself that it may help script and PoP :sad:
I would like players to say their feelings after they use the script or the issues they may find. :dead:
 
Latis the Darkgryphon said:
Hmm this thread is about an AI script I guess :ohdear:
So I would prefer the discussion keep on the script itself that it may help script and PoP :sad:
I would like players to say their feelings after they use the script or the issues they may find. :dead:

You're correct mate, back to topic, I've tried it but somehow my game got glitched. Any commands I would give the AI would run backwards to the edge of the map and stay there, the only working command in the testing was charge. Idk why it happened, it may be, as I've stated before, because of the need of starting a new game.

On a side note, no, I don't want to join any modding team... And, as a matter of analyzes, both answers I've got are characterized as narcissistic in a psychological stand-point. Yet, you are right, I should make my own mods, but I won't  :roll:

PS: I am arrogant, but that's because I can. And like it or not I've given you the insights needed to improve your mod Further, instead of locking information out, or directly trying to debunk you guys by making my own thing to compete with you. That's because I don't believe in competition, but rather hive work to achieve better results. To understand me you'd have to study years too many different areas. Philosophy primarily. Anyway, this is a waste of time, to argue about such things. You're either in favor of it or against it by either doing it at some point or not. Doesn't make any difference to me, and that's just how I am, like it or not... But don't expect me to see flaws and not be vocal about it, I'm an "utopist" if we could call it that. I just want to see everything becoming as close to perfection as it possibly can, that's all...  :lol: BTW, I will always find flaws, no matter how good you do something, and by doing so I can point out how to improve things, I'm the dream of any producer when it comes to that regard, even in my profession it's one of my best qualities, and a characteristic that requires people around me to be more mature so they don't get offended, because OBVIOUSLY, I am not aiming to offend anyone, I am practical...
 
This script sounds intriguing, but when I run it I get a bunch of errors when in battle. I stop getting messages on the bottom left (assuming due to message buffer overloaded)
 
MendedSlinky said:
This script sounds intriguing, but when I run it I get a bunch of errors when in battle. I stop getting messages on the bottom left (assuming due to message buffer overloaded)
Too bad for that :???:
Perhaps I should handle the original code to dev so that dev can decide how to add it themselves.
 
Love the mod, but makes my text crash and it's really annoying because I have to restart the game.

What are those coloured dots that appear on the right?
 
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