Nukes nukes nukes nukes nukes!

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Quite possible but I can't remember if there is exact proof that Hitler was against the stuff. Whether he was or not, it was researched and manufactured quite openly, so he must have been aware of it.
 
Why didn't he use chems in 1945?
The logic of Israeli nukes is to have a deterrent against conventional conquest, as the country is small.
Why wouldn't Hitler of all people think of chemical superweapons used as a deterrent not to conquer Germany?
 
The concentrations certainly are. And gas masks are probably pretty close at hand.

Also, if memory serves, chemical wasn't exactly regarded as the high point of reliability at the time.
Not sure if it ever was, after 'field trials.'
 
Still doesn't strike me as much of a deterrent. Poison gas was out of the question, literally every man and his dog had a gas mask since the shock of world war 1. So poison liquid in bombs? Or poison pizzas to tempt hungry soldiers? I'm no poison expert but I don't think there's much in it, at least defensively.

Ninja.
 
It is pretty surprising. There were already in WW1 persistent chemical agents that could prevent attackers from utilizing a piece of land, though I don't know whether Germans had those types in sufficient numbers for it to have any real impact. But for certain, they could have done it like in Ypres 1915 when it came to the defense of Berlin: wait for wind to blow in the right direction and open big vats of toxic gas, watch the fun.

Or how come they didn't put nerve gas warheads in V-2 instead of conventional explosives?

And sure, while everybody and their dog had gas masks, I doubt many frontline units bothered to carry theirs with them at all times, since nobody had used gas in the war. The first time certainly would have been a nasty surprise.
 
jacobhinds said:
Still doesn't strike me as much of a deterrent. Poison gas was out of the question, literally every man and his dog had a gas mask since the shock of world war 1. So poison liquid in bombs? Or poison pizzas to tempt hungry soldiers? I'm no poison expert but I don't think there's much in it, at least defensively.

Ninja.

I was just reading an article earlier about how in the very final days of the war some of Germany's spies and agents attempted a rampage of poisoning all the provisions of Europe, and how Allied troops were severely punished for eating captured food due to the fear that it had been tampered with.

I'm also pretty sure I read somewhere that Hitler personally blocked any suggestions for the use of chemical warfare. Something along the lines of him being an awful person, but liking puppies kind of thing, I think it was; some sort of personal moral principle.
 
Göring suggested in his interrogations that Germany didn't want to start a tit-for-tat gas war because the army was so reliant on horse transport for the bulk of their logistics and they never perfected a horse-mask that the animals could wear for extended lengths of time. If they dropped Sarin over Britain and a (presumed existent) British arsenal of nerve agents were fired back, it would devastate the army even if human casualties were minimal.

But then he was being starved and weaned off morphine at the time, and probably eager to have the answers to whatever questions he was asked (I can sympathize with that), so it might not be the only or primary reason.
 
Jhessail said:
Though there is one historical example of escalation not happening - Nazi-Germany had poison gas but never used it.
Czechoslovakia was manufacturing poison gases before the war; and even hastily increasing their production in late 30s when the ministry of defense funded construction of new chemical works for this purpose. Heck, part of the contract was awarded to American United States Ordnance Engineers, Inc Cleveland, Ohio. Given the widespread interwar anti gas hysteria, I think it is pretty safe to assume almost everyone had a sizeable supply of poison gases somewhere in their supply depots.
 
Jhessail said:
And sure, while everybody and their dog had gas masks, I doubt many frontline units bothered to carry theirs with them at all times, since nobody had used gas in the war. The first time certainly would have been a nasty surprise.

I've read that British commanders were extremely paranoid about gas attacks and regularly drilled the public and the army in their use. Thus German spies reported that a gas attack would be fruitless and only strengthen british resolve if there were few casualties.
 
Untitled. said:
Hell, Russia probably still has endless supplies of mustard gas from a hundred years back.

They didn't start producing mustard gas until the 1924, and couldn't store it for more than 10 years (un-distilled Lowenstein Yperite). With a lot of chemical weapons, production is a matter of maintenance. None of their "vintage" gas, if it even still exists, would be deployable by the originally intended delivery methods (but still dangerous if improperly disposed). Most of the present Russian chemical arsenal are nerve agents, which also have short shelf-lives.
 
jacobhinds said:
I've read that British commanders were extremely paranoid about gas attacks and regularly drilled the public and the army in their use. Thus German spies reported that a gas attack would be fruitless and only strengthen british resolve if there were few casualties.

As Ben said, the interwar gas hysteria was both massive and widespread. Not just among the British mind you. Gas masks were created for horses, for children, even for baby trolleys and dogs. Many doomsayers predicted massive fleets of airplanes dropping firebombs and gas cylinders in all cities.
 
I'm resurrecting this thread since North-Korea seems hellbent on causing the first nuclear war.

To freshen up the common knowledge base, North-Korea has both missiles and nukes. What is currently unknown is whether they have successfully miniaturised nuclear warheads sufficiently so that they can be fitted into a ballistic missile.

First, the nukes. Demoractic People's Republic of Korea - which is neither democratic nor a republic - has done several nuclear tests. Back in 2006 they tested a decide with a yield of 0.2 - 1 kilotons. In 2009 they did the second test, with a yield of 2 - 7 kilotons. Third test was done in 2013 and its yield was 7 - 8 kilotons. In 2006, DPRK had two nuclear tests and claimed that they had tested a hydrogen bomb - a far more destructive device than an atomic bomb - but experts were suspicious of this claim. The second test allegedly proved that DPRK had mated a nuclear device with a ballistic missile but again, evidence is lacking.

The sixth test took place yesterday (3rd September 2017) and the yield was vastly higher, around 100 kilotons, though other estimates have placed it as low as 50 kilotons and as high as 200 kilotons. DPRK again claimed that it was a hydrogen bomb mated with a ballistic missile. The destructive power suggests that this time they might not be lying.

DPRK has multiple facilities for producing nuclear material and if left in peace, can start stockpiling bombs now that they have "proper" working nukes. Estimates on their current warhead stockpile range from 20 to 60.

Now, while even 1 kiloton bomb is quite devastating, it's not that much worse than conventional weaponry. But a 100 kiloton bomb is certainly a "real" nuke and can cause tremendous damage. I've used Alex Wellerstein's nukemap to give you some examples, using an air-bust model for a 100 kT blast:

Tokyo

Los Angeles

Seoul

USN base at Guam

USAF base at Guam

So you can see that a 100 kiloton air-burst, while terribly devastating, is not quite the individual world destroyer that the megaton class bombs are. Nevertheless, DPRK has several.

Then, the missiles. DPRK has hundreds and hundreds of missiles but the vast majority of them are short-ranged, either artillery missiles, cruise missiles or theatre ballistic missiles. Dangerous mostly to South-Korea and somewhat to Japan. For the rest of the world, the most dangerous missiles are Hwasong-12 and Hwasong-14. The former has a range of up to 6000 kilometres and the latter up to 10,000 kilometres. However, test results have been mixed. Many missiles have broken up on re-entry and there is no hard information on their accuracy. Remember that it took the United States and Soviet Union decades of work to get ICBM CEP under 10 kilometres, not to mention under 1 klick. Hwasong-14 is basically just Hwasong-12 with an added second stage and thus reduced payload capability.

So DRPK can probably only nuke South-Korea and Japan - possibly Taiwan/Okinawa/Guam (if they can hit it). Reaching Alaska or Hawaii is questionable, not to mention Thailand, Australia or US western seaboard.

What can be done?

United States is perfectly capable of destroying DPRK even without using their own nuclear arsenal. Unfortunately any military action against the North risks massive retaliation against the South, and the ROK capital of Seoul is reachable for even the shortest range DPRK missiles. DPRK also have chemical weapons that they can put on their short range missiles. Evacuating a city of nearly 10 million people is of course impossible.

Covert action is less profitable. DPRK is extremely secretive and successful penetration of their nuclear program is even more difficult than with Iran. The success of eliminating leading Iranian scientists has largely been thanks to Mossad. Whether the South-Korean intelligence agencies can copy that success is questionable and CIA certainly cannot. And without up-to-date, accurate intelligence, hitting the useful and important targets becomes impossible.

So, diplomatic action seems the only sane option available. But it seems that DPRK is willing to lose their only remaining friend, China, in order to become a fully fledged member of the nuclear club. China can do more, like expelling the North-Korean workers from the special economic zone on the border. But if freezing coal purchases from DPRK did not deter them, other soft-power actions are likely to be just as ineffectual.
 
I think you are taking a too narrow, military view of the situation. The truth is NK's nukes are not meant to be used, only to play diplomatic games. Their non-use is the only leverage NK has, apart from the guns that point at Seoul. If they use one, everyone will join in the overthrow of the regime.
 
Rodrigo Ribaldo said:
The truth is NK's nukes are not meant to be used
Please tell me how you're reading the mind of Kim Jong-un.

Yes, of course the nukes are for deterrent.  But the regime is highly unstable and led by a madman. Certainly a madman with a high degree of self-preservation. Yet there are no checks and balances in the DPRK system. Kim has systematically destroyed any opposition he might have had. Claiming that there is no risk or danger is like living next door to an arsonist and not taking out fire insurance.
 
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