Armagan, we really needs for a little tactics!
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svaucher
Veteran
Some comments about the behaviour algorithm:
1/ Discipline should be a factor to take into consideration (maybe combined with the leadership and tactics skill of the leader). Farmers will have problems with simple tactics while knight a lot less.
2/ Naturally, people will tend to form groups. In a large chaotic battle to stay together. When separated, groups will form smaller groups (mounted troops will probably tend to stick together as they will quickly be separated from the others). Realisticly, the leader would probably have to go near smaller groups and shout commands.
Maybe flocking algorithms might be applicable here. In these algorithms, there is a direction vector that is calculated using a balance between the center of the group and the direction. It leads to a semi-chaotic (yet cohesive) movements. There were used in batman returns for the penguin and bat animation.
Some explanations:
http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/
sv
1/ Discipline should be a factor to take into consideration (maybe combined with the leadership and tactics skill of the leader). Farmers will have problems with simple tactics while knight a lot less.
2/ Naturally, people will tend to form groups. In a large chaotic battle to stay together. When separated, groups will form smaller groups (mounted troops will probably tend to stick together as they will quickly be separated from the others). Realisticly, the leader would probably have to go near smaller groups and shout commands.
Maybe flocking algorithms might be applicable here. In these algorithms, there is a direction vector that is calculated using a balance between the center of the group and the direction. It leads to a semi-chaotic (yet cohesive) movements. There were used in batman returns for the penguin and bat animation.
Some explanations:
http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/
sv
Just bear in mind that you'd have to tell your men these things at some point and that they'd have to understand.
I'm against the top down view, I'd rather only have the characters sight and have to give orders based on that and guess work or knowledge of the field.
A very simple option I mentioned once in an earlier thread, would be to have something like the CTL and ALT keys effect the command.
For example, CTRL could apply to all current Foot troops (CTLR+1 == foot troops HOLD POSITION) and ALT could apply to all current mounted troops (ALT+3 == all horse troops charge).
Just that would be quite useful.... IMHO
DE
For example, CTRL could apply to all current Foot troops (CTLR+1 == foot troops HOLD POSITION) and ALT could apply to all current mounted troops (ALT+3 == all horse troops charge).
Just that would be quite useful.... IMHO
DE
Lu Bu
Banned
I know that this have not a real chance of happening, but i would really like to see that your "heroes" (marnid+borcha) could be given control of part of your soldiers, which would act on their own then. (maybe could give simple commands to them before battle)
So i give for example Borcha Archers and Marnid Infantery. i would take control of cavalery.
Each of these three example army party could then be given different commands.
So i give for example Borcha Archers and Marnid Infantery. i would take control of cavalery.
Each of these three example army party could then be given different commands.
SinisterMorality
Regular
Tactics!! Tactics!! Wheeee!
The_Underliner_
Sergeant at Arms
Personaly would love this feature but am looking forward at some other features such as:
1. naval combat
2. seiges
3. hunting (please please PLEASE implement this minigames are fun
)
4. animation support from lurb
1. naval combat
2. seiges
3. hunting (please please PLEASE implement this minigames are fun
) 4. animation support from lurb
kroc
Recruit
I like the Unreal Tournament idea
every character has a Name.
you get a little menu when pressing X(Orders)
in M&B it would divide into
FORMATION
select names (with checkmark) from a tabel that has information about them (else youd have to remember who is who... think of 20 ppl in your army!)
then select formation (square, lines, diamond, hollow square...)
MOVEMENT/ORDERs
select names Or a Formation, and order them to move to nearest hill, river, attack, defend, follow me, retire(goes back to start location), regroup(also needs MORALE implemented into the game.. tries to regroup all formations at the start location), hide (would require SOLID OBSTACLES, eg in City Siege..), assault....
OTHER
mount of horse(select who, and on what horse, if none selected hops on his own horse), dismount, and some others...
Selecting has possibilty to select all with same horse speed/same weapon/ or horsed/unhorsed/ranged/melee... and of course ALL
every character has a Name.
you get a little menu when pressing X(Orders)
in M&B it would divide into
FORMATION
select names (with checkmark) from a tabel that has information about them (else youd have to remember who is who... think of 20 ppl in your army!)
then select formation (square, lines, diamond, hollow square...)
MOVEMENT/ORDERs
select names Or a Formation, and order them to move to nearest hill, river, attack, defend, follow me, retire(goes back to start location), regroup(also needs MORALE implemented into the game.. tries to regroup all formations at the start location), hide (would require SOLID OBSTACLES, eg in City Siege..), assault....
OTHER
mount of horse(select who, and on what horse, if none selected hops on his own horse), dismount, and some others...
Selecting has possibilty to select all with same horse speed/same weapon/ or horsed/unhorsed/ranged/melee... and of course ALL
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
Guys, this game seems to be circa 10th to 13th century. There are NO TRAINED SOLDIERS The only realistic tactics or formations would be some variation on the following:
tactics: each 'hero' (Marnid, Ymira, Borcha) is given a group of soldiers and a general command, ie Ymira gets the cavalry and command 'charge'.
the general command can only be changed in a face-to-face (perhaps a similar interface to the access inventory?)
formations:
close up and spread out added to existing commands. Order 'hold' and 'close up' to create a tight defensive hedgehog. 'hold' and 'spread out' gives a long defensive line, good for archers.
REMEMBER:
you went into the pub and threw some money around. People grabbed their pitchforks and followed you. This is how war worked in the dark & middle ages...
tactics: each 'hero' (Marnid, Ymira, Borcha) is given a group of soldiers and a general command, ie Ymira gets the cavalry and command 'charge'.
the general command can only be changed in a face-to-face (perhaps a similar interface to the access inventory?)
formations:
close up and spread out added to existing commands. Order 'hold' and 'close up' to create a tight defensive hedgehog. 'hold' and 'spread out' gives a long defensive line, good for archers.
REMEMBER:
you went into the pub and threw some money around. People grabbed their pitchforks and followed you. This is how war worked in the dark & middle ages...
NikkTheTrick
Sergeant at Arms
First: even "close" and "spread out" would be VERY helpful against cavalry.Amman d' Stazia said:
Second: even then, archers would stand in line instead of standing right behind each other. An archer might not understand what a formation is, but he will understand that a) he cannot shoot standing behind another archer b) he will get hurt if he stands in front of an archer. Therefore, archer will form a line out of common sence.
Third: when cavalry charged often spearmen would move forward since they were the only ones who had a chance.
Fourth, army would not stand in a column during the battle. They will form some kind of line to meet the enemy. Not a perfect box like Swiss used, but not a crowd either.
Fifth: a soldier should not understand ANYTHING. Just follow the f-ing orders and die!
Koufodin@s
Recruit
It would be great if the troops in a formation had better stats depending on which kind of formation they belong(column,flank,square)
Amman d' Stazia said:
Actually, the plate armor contains features not normally seen until the 15th century, and the heavy barded armor on the charges was also not common on the battlefield in the time you mentioned. Also, the armies of Harold Godwinson were disciplined enough to stand against the medium cavalry of William the Conqueror, AND disciplined enough to not break ranks to attack the 'routing' troops of William. (Well, until the last false rout ordered by the Conqueror.) So, we see both disciplined cavalry and disciplined infantry in this example, which happens to be well within your timeframe. Orders and formations are not without reason, though either grouping under heroes or the easier (in my opinion) grouping under unit type is fine.
Personally, I think implementation of differing who receives orders would be a most acceptible surrogate. Formations could follow later (or never at all). And if this order differential is placed, then it would be very nice if 'hold position' made them hold the line much more effectively, rather than breaking up to chase down enemies. Or, add a 'stand ground' command, which causes the men to return to the position they were ordered to hold.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
Merentha, good of you to point that out with the armour, and I have to add that the 'war bow' and kettle hats seem more suited to the hundred years war than the first crusade...
But I'm sure that you'll agree, Harold's housecarls only made up the front few ranks. behind them were the levy, who were the numerical majority of the English army. I'm justy trying to make the point here that soldiers trained well enough to follow remote commands really did not exist at this time in history. There were warriors - Royal Guards, huiskerls, bands of mercenary knights - who would follow a leader's orders to the letter, but as far as I'm aware, they all depended very much on a leader/commander to control them in close proximity. hence my idea of delegating Marnid or Borcha with a handful of people and a task on the battlefield.
Also, I like the element of chaos in the fights, it makes for challenging, interesting situations. If M&B was reduced to a dropdown menu of formations, weapons and movement options, it wouldn't be the game I like! The AI is pretty good, especially when you give the enemy good tactics AI, and I wouldn't want to see this wasted ....
There have been some good suggestions so far, but I can't bring myself to agree with micromanagement: how loud can one guy (or gal) shout?
But I'm sure that you'll agree, Harold's housecarls only made up the front few ranks. behind them were the levy, who were the numerical majority of the English army. I'm justy trying to make the point here that soldiers trained well enough to follow remote commands really did not exist at this time in history. There were warriors - Royal Guards, huiskerls, bands of mercenary knights - who would follow a leader's orders to the letter, but as far as I'm aware, they all depended very much on a leader/commander to control them in close proximity. hence my idea of delegating Marnid or Borcha with a handful of people and a task on the battlefield.
Also, I like the element of chaos in the fights, it makes for challenging, interesting situations. If M&B was reduced to a dropdown menu of formations, weapons and movement options, it wouldn't be the game I like! The AI is pretty good, especially when you give the enemy good tactics AI, and I wouldn't want to see this wasted ....
There have been some good suggestions so far, but I can't bring myself to agree with micromanagement: how loud can one guy (or gal) shout?
killer rat
Regular
What abot a command that gets you into an RTS veiw or a map veiw
you select a few troops, say archers, the click where ya want em then horsers and make em go round that hill then charge from behind and then when yer done you go back to 3rd person veiw and you do what you want with the rest or charge yerself or join the cavelry or somthing like that anyway.
__________
Killer Rat
you select a few troops, say archers, the click where ya want em then horsers and make em go round that hill then charge from behind and then when yer done you go back to 3rd person veiw and you do what you want with the rest or charge yerself or join the cavelry or somthing like that anyway.
__________
Killer Rat
LCJr
Knight
I'd be happy with some simple formations like line and square. A few extra commands for the remaining 6-0 number keys like ceasefire or a "down bows and draw blades" type command. Nothing complicated in fact the simplier the better.
As for that comment do a little research. Tactics didn't suddenly spring into existence with Alexander or the Romans or cease to exist when they were gone. Do a websearch for the Strategikon for starters.
Barded horses came and went out of favor quite a few times. The Romans encountered them, and then copied them, among the Sarmations, Sassinids, Persions, Armenians, etc... The term the Roman's generally used is Cataphract roughly translates to "covered all over" or the semi-slang term Clibinari which is a type of oven. The biggest problem with armoring a horse was heatstroke which thankfully isn't simulated in M&B.
As for that comment do a little research. Tactics didn't suddenly spring into existence with Alexander or the Romans or cease to exist when they were gone. Do a websearch for the Strategikon for starters.
Barded horses came and went out of favor quite a few times. The Romans encountered them, and then copied them, among the Sarmations, Sassinids, Persions, Armenians, etc... The term the Roman's generally used is Cataphract roughly translates to "covered all over" or the semi-slang term Clibinari which is a type of oven. The biggest problem with armoring a horse was heatstroke which thankfully isn't simulated in M&B.
