Turkey Right Now

[Wellenbrecher]

Come on, Jhessail even did you the favour of not insulting you like I did.
At least try to refute that lovely little logical conundrum you put yourself in.

 

[AreJohn]

Scenario :

Italy invades Germany. They arm the Turks telling them that they are their Etruscan brothers. Turks start killing German civilians. Germany deports them back to Turkey. On the way they are killed by the Greeks who think that Trojans are invading their country. Is this a genocide?

That depends on what the globally recognised number of deaths needed to consider something a genocide are though.

And it wouldn't be surprising if turkey goes along with something as daft as that if the situation did arise. 

 

[Mage246]

In that case Germany would be committing genocide. Forced marches of an entire population across hostile environment most assuredly qualifies under the definition of genocide.

 

[ancalimon]

In that case Germany would be committing genocide. Forced marches of an entire population across hostile environment most assuredly qualifies under the definition of genocide.

So they have to let the Turks commit a genocide on the Germans in order to not commit a genocide against the Turks?

 

[Mage246]

You seem to have lost track of your own argument. Nice non sequitur, though. You asked whether it would qualify as genocide. It would.

How Germany would deal with *armed* combatants in that scenario is up to them to decide. They would certainly be within their rights to kill anyone taking up arms against them. That doesn't even begin to mean that they could choose to discriminate against an entire population.

 

[ancalimon]

You seem to have lost track of your own argument. Nice non sequitur, though. You asked whether it would qualify as genocide. It would.

How Germany would deal with *armed* combatants in that scenario is up to them to decide. They would certainly be within their rights to kill anyone taking up arms against them. That doesn't even begin to mean that they could choose to discriminate against an entire population.

I'm saying that there are variables. I'm saying that the world is not black and white. It's the intention that counts.

The Turks moved the Armenians from the places where it was already dangerous in the first place. They moved them because they did not want to risk fighting them if they were also armed. What reason do we have to believe that Armenians were sent so that the Kurdish gangs could kill them?  The Kurds would not have sought revenge if the Armenian gangs did not massacre their women and children in the first place.

 

[Mage246]

The intent was to destroy that population. 

Pretty damn well as black as you can get.

 

[AreJohn]

You seem to have lost track of your own argument. Nice non sequitur, though. You asked whether it would qualify as genocide. It would.

How Germany would deal with *armed* combatants in that scenario is up to them to decide. They would certainly be within their rights to kill anyone taking up arms against them. That doesn't even begin to mean that they could choose to discriminate against an entire population.

I'm saying that there are variables. I'm saying that the world is not black and white. It's the intention that counts.

You make more turns in your argument than there are turns on a country road. 

 

[Goker]

I'm saying that there are variables. I'm saying that the world is not black and white. It's the intention that counts.

And the Ottoman Empire intended to discriminate against Armenian people that lived in its borders.

 

[ancalimon]

The intent was to destroy that population. 

Pretty damn well as black as you can get.

What reason do you have to believe that they intended to kill the Armenians? If they had this intention, why not do it the easy way? Why let the soldiers share their food with them? Why leave any survivors that are going to create problems in the future?

 

[Goker]

I like reading old newspapers, do you?

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9802E6D71E3EE033A2575BC1A96E9C946496D6CF
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F06E6D6173BE633A2575BC0A96E9C946796D6CF

That's some compassion they must have shown.

 

[Temuzu]

What reason do you have to believe that they intended to kill the Armenians? If they had this intention, why not do it the easy way? Why let the soldiers share their food with them? Why leave any survivors that are going to create problems in the future?

Because the country was at war, and walking people to death is cheaper than shooting them?

It's so funny, isn't it comrade? Give us a holy resource of yours about genocide my friend.

Jhessail already gave plenty, was there something wrong with those?

Oh wow. I'm just going to quote this so that you cant delete it.

1) Armenians civilians were not killed by Turkish soldiers. They were protected and soldiers shared their food.
2) Armenians civilians were not systematically killed by Turkish civilians.
3) Armenians civilians were killed by Armenian and Kurdish gangs. There were no Turkish gang since all of the Turkish men were busy dying here and there trying to fight the invading powers.
4) 1.5 million Armenians did not exist in the first place. They were moved to a different area of Ottoman Empire. Only those Armenians that were living in places that were under attack were moved. The rest continued living their lives normally.
5) Armenian gangs were killed by Turkish soldiers and Kurdish bandits. And this is the genocide everybody is talking about. Armenian gangs are formed by the French and Russians openly. They are armed. They start killing every person that is not a Christian. Then they are killed by Turkish soldiers.

EDIT. BTW, if you want to talk about this Turkish genocide, why dont you give us some sources we can study it from? Preferably not in Turkish, since most of us dont speak it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_McCarthy_%28American_historian%29

http://tech.mit.edu/V119/N23/col23guest2.23c.html

http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/professor-dr-justin-mccarthy-interview

See, now we're getting somewhere. That wasn't so hard, was it?

From what I gathered from the links (btw, the Youtube videos in the third link are broken) seems pretty well established. Well, mostly the stuff from McCarthy, I kinda blazed through the second link after I got to the part about the Allied conspiracy plan to colonize all of Anatolia etc. 600 000 Armenians, and about 3 million Ottomans, not including soldiers, but including Turks, Kurds and other Muslims, died during WW1 according to Ottoman sources. He also claims that a million Armenians died during 1915-1923. His main point of defense is the claim that the Ottoman government never planned for a genocide or even order one. That's a pretty weak defense though, since it doesn't require a governments consent for a genocide to happen.

So, if what those links provide is what you believe in, sure, a million Armenians were killed. I'm fine with that outcome.

 

[Mage246]

You know what guys, he's right. How could the Ottomans have possibly known that millions of refugees would need food, water, and shelter in the desert? Be reasonable, they're not omniscient!

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Ah, Mage, considering how they organised their military campaigns it could very well be argued that they did not know that.

 

[Temuzu]

Oh snap.

 

[Ashtakarna]

Selamın Aleyküm.

We are Turks. We are Strong. We Are Clever. We Are Courageous. We are Nimble.

We are Middle Asia Huns. We Are Europe Huns.  We Are Turkic Khaganate. We are Seljuq dynasty. We Are Ottomans. We Are TURK...

We Are Mete. We Are Attila. We Are Kürşad. We Are Alparslan. We Are Hülagû. We Are Fatih Sultan Mehmed ( The Conqueror). We Are Suleyman The Magnificent. We Are Kemal Atatürk.

We Are Turk. We Are Avengers!!!

 

[rebelknight]

 

[K-64]

I'm saying that there are variables. I'm saying that the world is not black and white. It's the intention that counts.

So forcing women, children and the infirm across an arid waste with no provisions is something done with good intentions?

 

[Mage246]

Selamın Aleyküm.

We are Turks. We are Strong. We Are Clever. We Are Courageous. We are Nimble.

We are Middle Asia Huns. We Are Europe Huns.  We Are Turkic Khaganate. We are Seljuq dynasty. We Are Ottomans. We Are TURK...

We Are Mete. We Are Attila. We Are Kürşad. We Are Alparslan. We Are Hülagû. We Are Fatih Sultan Mehmed ( The Conqueror). We Are Suleyman The Magnificent. We Are Kemal Atatürk.

We Are Turk. We Are Avengers!!!

Someone call Tony Stark, sounds like the Avengers are expanding!

 

[Wellenbrecher]

Selamın Aleyküm.

We are Turks. We are Strong. We Are Clever. We Are Courageous. We are Nimble.

We are Middle Asia Huns. We Are Europe Huns.  We Are Turkic Khaganate. We are Seljuq dynasty. We Are Ottomans. We Are TURK...

We Are Mete. We Are Attila. We Are Kürşad. We Are Alparslan. We Are Hülagû. We Are Fatih Sultan Mehmed ( The Conqueror). We Are Suleyman The Magnificent. We Are Kemal Atatürk.

We Are Turk. We Are Avengers!!!