The Original L'Aigle Thread, for the sake of history. Be ye warned.

[Agovic]

I don't think Russians used those in the 1809 uniforms ???? Except for Bicornes, they used them for officer bicornes 1804-1811

 

[T&B]

shakos dont actually need the straps to be kept on the head, as french we hardly use them

 

[Gardi]

shakos dont actually need the straps to be kept on the head, as french we hardly use them

but all shakos in all armies have this straps. in Russian army in 1809 it was simple leather strap:

Spoiler

but it's not the main question. where black plume on grenadiers shakos???

 

[Vicccard]

shakos dont actually need the straps to be kept on the head, as french we hardly use them

but all shakos in all armies have this straps. in Russian army in 1809 it was simple leather strap:

Spoiler

but it's not the main question. where black plume on grenadiers shakos???

Plumes were only used for parades, as they are fragile things. If any used them on the field, it were the French. (in my humble opinion)

 

[Gardi]

shakos dont actually need the straps to be kept on the head, as french we hardly use them

but all shakos in all armies have this straps. in Russian army in 1809 it was simple leather strap:

Spoiler

but it's not the main question. where black plume on grenadiers shakos???

Plumes were only used for parades, as they are fragile things. If any used them on the field, it were the French. (in my humble opinion)

No, russian grenadiers used plumes on a field too, especially if it a big main battle. naturally plumes not use in march battle but in this instance other equipment have cover, especially shakos:

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Plume in this instance became attached to the scabbard

 

[Vicccard]

Sources?

And don't give me paintings, cos they almost all show full parade uniform.

 

[Gardi]

Sources?

And don't give me paintings, cos they almost all show full parade uniform.

naturally they almost all show full parade uniform, but it parade uniform intended for general battels. Sources-"Military regulations 1809". another thing parade uniform rarely meets the regulations, especially after months of fighting and then soldiers of all armies look like this:

Spoiler

it illustrated russian jaegers 1814-1815, but this gives an idea as troops looked on long march

 

[Agovic]

Sources?

And don't give me paintings, cos they almost all show full parade uniform.

I find the Russian version of War and Peace ( 1965-8 ) quite historically accurate for Russia, yet a bit not for 1805-6 France.

Russian Grenadiers wore plumed shakoes as they abandoned the mitre hat, already by mid 1805 almost all non-reserve regiments had plumed shakoes, which it stayed ( the design of the shako and the plume changed from 1804 style to 1824 style ) until they adopted the kepi shakoes ( American Civil War-like ones ) that were also with something like plumes x) ( at last by 1809, only was preserved for the Pavlovsky only for parades )

 

[Vicccard]

Sources?

And don't give me paintings, cos they almost all show full parade uniform.

naturally they almost all show full parade uniform, but it parade uniform intended for general battels. Sources-"Military regulations 1809". another thing parade uniform rarely meets the regulations, especially after months of fighting and then soldiers of all armies look like this:

Spoiler

it illustrated russian jaegers 1814-1815, but this gives an idea as troops looked on long march

Indeed, and plumes would really be one of the first things to either be thrown away or be lost. And most important of all: If lost, it had to be paid for by the soldier.
I'm not saying NOBODY wore them. I just think it's very unlikely they were worn on a regimental basis.

Agovich, are you seriously taking a 60ties movie as a historical source?

 

[Agovic]

Sources?

And don't give me paintings, cos they almost all show full parade uniform.

naturally they almost all show full parade uniform, but it parade uniform intended for general battels. Sources-"Military regulations 1809". another thing parade uniform rarely meets the regulations, especially after months of fighting and then soldiers of all armies look like this:

Spoiler

it illustrated russian jaegers 1814-1815, but this gives an idea as troops looked on long march

Indeed, and plumes would really be one of the first things to either be thrown away or be lost. And most important of all: If lost, it had to be paid for by the soldier.

Agovich, are you seriously taking a 60ties movie as a historical source?

That **** is good man Really good and accurate 100%, but not on the French side in Hollabrunn and Austerlitz

 

[Vicccard]

yes, a movie can be 'historical accurate'. But taking a MOVIE as an HISTORICAL source?
Agovich, that's just plain stupid.

Also, when I see war and Peace, all I think is 'Parade uniforms, parade uniforms everywhere'

 

[Bluehawk]

Osprey's Men and Arms 185 says: "Campaign dress was very similar to full dress, plumes and shako cords apparently being worn even in action." I interpret that "apparently" to mean "nothing has been formally written to the contrary."

I went and scoured through Viskovatov's descriptions, just in case, and he goes into great detail about plume widths and the months they were issued and changed etc. etc. but nothing about field regulations... You just have to make a judgement call when there's a lack of evidence like this, and Docm erred on the side of caution.

I'd sort of like to see plumes for the grenadiers, but as a guilty pleasure rather than as a demand for authenticity - I won't mind their absence.

 

[Vicccard]

Beeh...Osprey 

 

[Bluehawk]

That was basically my reaction when I read the passage.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

I bet you this is the only mod thread where you'll get two pages of discussion about a plume.

The reason there's no plume or chinstrap is simply because the shako isn't finished yet. While I have a hard time believing Philip Haythornthwaite's claim that full dress was worn on campaign, I have to stick with what my reference says and most of it shows plumes being worn in battle.

Anyway, does anyone know what the Pavlov grenadier's shoulder straps looked like in 1809? can't seem to find out what division they were in, or if they just continued to wear their inspection era coats (they may as well).

Thanks.

 

[BetaKnight]

Well if you mean this unit (pre 1812)

Spoiler

 

[chargerz43]

The uniforms do change for winter and summer (unless I find out my script is causing horrible, as-of-yet unnoticed problems). I could probably make them change based on the scene or weather, but I'm not sure I want to.

Thanks, all.

Spoiler

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

Well if you mean this unit (pre 1812)

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When I said Pavlov, I meant Pavlov, not Semenovski.

 

[JacketOfGreen]

This is something I found in my Knoetel stuff. It's not quite 1809, and it doesn't have the shoulder straps very visible, but it's better than nothing, I hope.

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I have a various assortment of uniforms by Knoetel, if you need anything I can try to see what I can find. You'd be best asking Captured Joe.

Or some more unrelated 1800-1801 Smolensk, similar pattern but different details.

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EDIT: inb4 Bluehawk

 

[shadowarcher]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're after but i found a few images of pavlov grenadiers:

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I hope one of those helps you, if not i apologise as these were found in a quick 5 minute search on google and are probably not exactly accurate.