The Marinian's deserve a makeover!

[Anaxeo]

So I just started playing with the Republic of Marina homeland the other day, and I fell in love with them immediately. It's so much fun to have a wall of Khergits smash into their wall of polearms. But I think they would do better with Pikes and then swords for close range. It would be easier to fight Cavalry if they had big long pikes and could hit the cavalry troops the moment they got within range and un-horse them.

Plus, if the Republic of Marina was so rich, then I think they deserve better heraldic armor too. 

 

[apiks]

= OP (overpowered) . I think they are good as they currently are but  i wouldn't mind - you equipping your own troops with bought goods .

 

[King Loras]

Problem with giving units both polearms and swords, in my experience, is that the AI never uses the polearms.

And personally, I prefer halberds for variety's sake. It looks a lot less boring to me to see a bunch of halberds than a bunch of pikes. Plus, the advantage of the halberd is that it is good against everyone (both mounted and foot units). Pikes are only nice against mounted units.

In real life you could use the pointy end of the halberd to stop a horse, use a hook of sorts to unhorse the mounted soldier, and then use the edge to finish him off. Three weapons in one.

 

[Daedelus_McGee]

And personally, I prefer halberds for variety's sake. It looks a lot less boring to me to see a bunch of halberds than a bunch of pikes. Plus, the advantage of the halberd is that it is good against everyone (both mounted and foot units). Pikes are only nice against mounted units.

In the real world, a block of disciplined pike could chew through anything on the battlefield until the advent of massed artillery.  The strength of a pike block of 600+ was their coordinated, overlapping attacks and defense.  M&B would probably need 8+ processors and 4GB video cards to be able to render a pike block and a reasonable opposition. 

It is worth noting that halberds were used as flank protection for pike formations, but the real meat grinders were the pikes from Alexander until the flintlock.

 

[Computica]

And personally, I prefer halberds for variety's sake. It looks a lot less boring to me to see a bunch of halberds than a bunch of pikes. Plus, the advantage of the halberd is that it is good against everyone (both mounted and foot units). Pikes are only nice against mounted units.

In the real world, a block of disciplined pike could chew through anything on the battlefield until the advent of massed artillery.  The strength of a pike block of 600+ was their coordinated, overlapping attacks and defense.  M&B would probably need 8+ processors and 4GB video cards to be able to render a pike block and a reasonable opposition. 

It is worth noting that halberds were used as flank protection for pike formations, but the real meat grinders were the pikes from Alexander until the flintlock.

Nice! Do you all have any sources where I can read up on more information like this?

 

[Eligar]

And personally, I prefer halberds for variety's sake. It looks a lot less boring to me to see a bunch of halberds than a bunch of pikes. Plus, the advantage of the halberd is that it is good against everyone (both mounted and foot units). Pikes are only nice against mounted units.

In the real world, a block of disciplined pike could chew through anything on the battlefield until the advent of massed artillery.  The strength of a pike block of 600+ was their coordinated, overlapping attacks and defense.  M&B would probably need 8+ processors and 4GB video cards to be able to render a pike block and a reasonable opposition. 

It is worth noting that halberds were used as flank protection for pike formations, but the real meat grinders were the pikes from Alexander until the flintlock.

I thought Alexander used his hoplites as a distraction for the enemy while his horsemen did the real damage?

 

[damnimbored25]

He used both of them, one of them to engage and the other to finish them.

 

[King Loras]

I still don't think M&B pikes can stop M&B infantry units (assuming the pikemen have no sidearms and only use pikes, like in M&B). I've had an easier time killing a pikeman than I have had killing a two-handed sword/axeman. And in large numbers for both sides, the odds even out slightly, but not enough. Pikes are good against horsemen because of the length and the ability to bring the horse to a dead stop.

 

[damnimbored25]

You have to admit that the Conquistador pike man's are deadly.
They are good against cavalry and! infantry.

 

[Computica]

You have to admit that the Conquistador pike man's are deadly.
They are good against cavalry and! infantry.

The Conquistador Pikeman are very unrealistic. The swing of the pikes are way to fast, I'll end up slowing them down greatly in the port. I'll also be giving them a small but short weapon.

 

[King Loras]

Question: When given both polearms and shorter non-polearm weapons in Warband, does the AI use the polearms sometimes and the non-polearms at other times? Because the AI in M&B never uses the polearms in my experience (unless the polearm is their only melee weapon).

 

[damnimbored25]

Or if they are mounted.

 

[Computica]

Question: When given both polearms and shorter non-polearm weapons in Warband, does the AI use the polearms sometimes and the non-polearms at other times? Because the AI in M&B never uses the polearms in my experience (unless the polearm is their only melee weapon).

The AI will use the longest Range weapon by default unless the target is in close range. I find them using there fist if they have a slow long ranged weapon they can't block with.

 

[Alavaria]

Oh, its such a pity. The Marinian Weapon Specialist isn't very good with his, er, firearm thing. It looks cool, but >.>

Just felt a bit disappointed when I got my first SCIENCE warrior. Won't be worrying about cozying up to the clergy "scientists" if that's the best they can make. Pfft, guns that can't be fired, what can you do with them.

(My was aiming his gun while his friends fired several bolts and then the melee started already.

 

[Sindagorn]

Oh, its such a pity. The Marinian Weapon Specialist isn't very good with his, er, firearm thing. It looks cool, but >.>

Just felt a bit disappointed when I got my first SCIENCE warrior. Won't be worrying about cozying up to the clergy "scientists" if that's the best they can make. Pfft, guns that can't be fired, what can you do with them.

(My was aiming his gun while his friends fired several bolts and then the melee started already.

I used them alongside Marinian Elite Troops and alongside Mercenaries from the Black Army, the Conquistadors and the Jotnar Clan during sieges and I never lost a more of the Weapon Specialists than of the other troops. This surely is no randomized controlled trial, but I get the impression that they can't be too bad even if the Condottieri seem to be more effective.

 

[Alavaria]

They have better armor, of course. More importantly, you won't have as many of them as your other troops, of course you'd lose less.

As far as I see with my small number, they don't fire their gun. It occurs to a much smaller extent with (cross)bow men, usually they may hesitate, but not like these guys, who will aim, stop, aim etc for 30+mins, and then its melee time. Sure, they might be better in a melee, but I want ranged troops to stand on the towers and massacre Invaders. Having gunners take up the tower place but not killing isn't gonna work. So top-nobles+sharpshooters on tower/wall + Elite/Veteran infantry to clog up the ladder.

I'm gonna feel free to tell the scientists to go away until they develop machine muskets. THEN I'll devote more people to science >.> Wait, chicken and egg...

 

[Sindagorn]

... More importantly, you won't have as many of them as your other troops, of course you'd lose less.

Thanks, but I'm not that stupid 
Of course I went to the siege with ~50% Weapon Specialists and ~50% other troops.

 

[Alavaria]

Thanks, but I'm not that stupid 
Of course I went to the siege with ~50% Weapon Specialists and ~50% other troops.

You're pretty good. Actually I've just reached the ability to have 50% of the top noble. But I never tried to max out on Holy Warriors (cause the guns aren't great). Still massing that many must be hard. Did they shoot a lot of enemies dead, or just *survive*?

Though I do wonder about the stats of their armor. It definitely looks a look better than the heraldic mail, which is rather odd.

 

[Bismarck]

In my oppinion, the Marinian crossbowmen should be improved by fixing the unrealistic behaviour and damage of the crossbows. That crossbow problem has always annoyed me.
Then I would love to see more polearms. The elite troops with their swords look so stupid. More halberds are needed!

 

[Sindagorn]

... Still massing that many must be hard. Did they shoot a lot of enemies dead, or just *survive*?

Actually it's not much effort, just patience.

After defeating the Legion, there was still a lot to conquer (the whole Khergit and Rhodok Territory and two Swadian cities). So while I waited for Version 5.0 to come out, I began collecting all kinds of troops and with 800 days gone there's quite a big pool to experiment with (I leave them at the castles of my lords, so I don't have to pay their wages).

... and YES, they just survive and they seem to be much more helpful at melee than as "artillery".