the Commercialization of mods
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Kurt Zibling said:
People who're playing M&B probably don't have graphical quality very high on their checklist. Personally, I would not buy it, simply because it's more of the same. When I'm stabbing a bloody Swadian Knight in the face, I'm not looking at how shiny my sword is. Neither do I want more bloody drama in my party because someone pissed in the ale.
Now, if that same $10 was for a mod that introduced gameplay additions e.g. an in-depth diplomacy system, I wouldn't hesitate at all.
tegalad
Banned
I do not agree with charging for mods. The way it works now, seems very user- and modder friendly, so I think it'd be unwise to change thigs too radically. Modders who work now are doing it for fun and for free. Paying modders and charging users would most likely atract scavengers who'd take away fun. This is all just my opinion, so...
If they release major add-ons and new feautures, I wouldn't hesitate to buy them. But I wouldn't buy mods.
Another thing: I've seen a great deal of piracy of M&B, and charging for mods will just trigger piracy on mods too. And I don't want that to happen.
If they release major add-ons and new feautures, I wouldn't hesitate to buy them. But I wouldn't buy mods.
Another thing: I've seen a great deal of piracy of M&B, and charging for mods will just trigger piracy on mods too. And I don't want that to happen.
Archonsod said:Says who? There's nothing "gold" about the gold edition of Company of Heroes, but it doesn't stop it being marketed as such. There's nothing premium about premium dog food as far as I can tell, but it still claims to be so. If you don't think the mods are up to snuff that's your opinion, I'm sure a quick trip to the relevant mod thread would provide ample people with the opposite opinion.
Then they've lied to their customers, have they not? Aside from that, professional developers are the ones who create the added content usually sold, not amateurs. You're probably going to go back to your earlier argument in which there is barely any difference with professional and amateur coders, but the fact of the matter is that there is a big difference. Why would there be a college degree in software engineering if there wasn't? Are you saying all those who decided to take this course have wasted their money, because this does not differentiate them from those who decided to take it up one day? Sure, people who get no formal education can be as good as or even better than anyone in the business (take Flea from the RHCP for example, he's a top-notch bassist with no formal education on it) but it takes considerable time and effort to reach that level. Also, the whole argument is based on your own opinion, and therefore moot. As a final note on the dog food: Unless you can give proof that premium dog food isn't made out of meat made for the consumption of humans, you can't say premium dog food is just like regular dog food.
Given time and effort you can make Mount and Blade without pay. It's a bull**** argument, the point of trade on a basic level is paying people to do stuff so you don't have to. I can manufacture a car, given enough time and effort, I can code my own version of every game I own given enough time and effort there is in fact nothing humanity is capable of producing that you cannot do yourself, given sufficient time and effort. Or, I can pay other people to do that stuff and avoid having to spend the time and effort. Hence I'll happily pay for fruit, which can be found literally growing on trees for free, because I have neither the time nor inclination to manage my own orchard.
You cannot manufacture the car because you do not have the resources, people on the otherhand have been given the resources and tools to make Mount&Blade mods. If I recall correctly, my argument here was that M&B mods that are paid for would be just like most free mods out there, save for their quality. My point in this argument is that everything is doable for free, and you aren't actually paying for new features and such, I'll cede you this point, as it was weak anyway, and as a closing statement, I'd like to say that you've basically gone all reductio ad absurdum on my ass.
I'd assume a basic installer or similar would be added. I also wouldn't discount the fact that it's multiple mods in this pack. Like I said earlier, merely collecting a couple of mods together and giving them a simple installer would be of value to some people, the only question is how much they'd pay for the convenience.
This is true, as is with the case of your OpFlash CD, but then again, you could easily just set up a contest and such like I stated on my last post. Again, this one's a weak argument on my part.
They still could register here, and indeed download the mod without ever registering here. Once the mod is on sale, they still can. And yes, if they are too dumb to do their research then they can't complain about being ripped off; caveat emptor after all. I'm sure everyone has bought at least one game that they hate which had they done their research they wouldn't have bought, and I bet plenty of people paid twenty quid for a game on Steam only to find it on sale at half the price the day after. Every purchase is a gamble and if you don't know what you are buying, you're likely to get burned.
This is kinda the point of a low price. People are more likely to impulsively buy a game at $4.99 than one at $40.99 simply because it's less of a risk. The $4.99 game might be ****e, but at the end of the day it's cost you what, about a pint and a half? Yeah, if I paid $40.99 for a game which was given away free I'd be pissed off, at $4.99 I'd just shrug.
Plus, don't underestimate the value of convenience. I've bought two games this weekend off GoG which I already own on the original disks, both in pristine condition. Why? because for me, the convenience of having them online rather than having to find and lug around the disks is worth the $4.99 they were asking for quite apart from the actual value of the games themselves.
You assume that everyone earns at the same rate as you do. 5 quid in the UK might be petty cash for you, but what about the people who live off 5 dollars a day?Not only is that 5 quid not just petty cash, but it's more than they earn in a day (for comparison, 5 quid is around 400 pesos, the average daily salary here is less than 300). Games are a luxury to us less fortunate folk. Aside from that, your five dollar price tag for video games as a sort of "marker" for increased buyer impulse is under the assumption that these are full games and not just modifications to a game you've already paid for. People are a lot more stingy with their money when you say you're gonna fix up their car instead of giving them a new one for the same price. In that line, why would you buy something that slightly enhances a current game instead of buying a new game entirely for the same price?
That's $5 without any expense, and just look at Merc's numbers earlier for an idea of how significant it is. Assuming you sell one thousand copies; which given the low price and wide distribution thanks to the internet isn't that unlikely, that's $5000. I dunno about Paradox, but I certainly wouldn't call it small change. In terms of publicity then it's us rather than Paradox which will benefit; people who would not otherwise have played or downloaded mods who buy it may well be encouraged to come here to see what else may be available. I doubt very much that any of the mods alone would increase sales or publicity of M&B (in fact, unless they're not releasing it until next year I'd think Warband would bury any possible publicity from a mod pack, whether they ran it as a competition or not. Multiplayer is hard to beat).
In terms of the advantage to the dev/publisher it's the same as any DLC; you increase the income from the game for far less work or risk than a full blown expansion or similar. In addition it can be quite useful to see where your audience lies. Something EA and Bethesda have both done is to release add ons taking the original game in several directions, and then used sales figures from those to determine what would be most likely to be successful if expanded into a full blown expansion/sequel. It allows them to "test the water" before committing to something requiring a lot more investment.
In fact, having read Paradox's response I assume this is them finally getting on board the DLC/Micropayment bandwagon. About bloody time imho.
Without any expense except the loss of a portion of your fanbase. Remember. Mount&Blade is still indie, WoM is still one of those most effective methods of sale. Also, Merc's numbers are under the assumption that the same amount of people buy the mod when it's for sale as the amount when it was for free.
Also Llew: My post. :p
afterburner
Squire
adapting a famous saying here:
Modding is like sex, it's only good when it's free.
try put a price tag on your hobby will turn it into some kind of profession, and very likely ruin all the fun you used to have.
and the mod pack seems to be only an one time thing, and the presumed 5-10 dollars profit have to be divided by several modders after Paradox taking away their share. since the mod pack is in a downloadable form instead of a CD-ROM, most people who frequent the internet probably will find the free mods here at the TW forum, so i doubt the market performance will be very successful.
as modders who took this offer imply that they really don't care much about the few dollars, and judging from most people's reaction towards the whole thing, i say for most modders that extra few bucks just are not worth the risk of being alienated here.
Modding is like sex, it's only good when it's free.
try put a price tag on your hobby will turn it into some kind of profession, and very likely ruin all the fun you used to have.
and the mod pack seems to be only an one time thing, and the presumed 5-10 dollars profit have to be divided by several modders after Paradox taking away their share. since the mod pack is in a downloadable form instead of a CD-ROM, most people who frequent the internet probably will find the free mods here at the TW forum, so i doubt the market performance will be very successful.
as modders who took this offer imply that they really don't care much about the few dollars, and judging from most people's reaction towards the whole thing, i say for most modders that extra few bucks just are not worth the risk of being alienated here.
Actually, I'd pay $10 for a "who pissed in the ale" mod...Night Ninja said:
No. If they want to declare it the gold version, director's cut, premium edition or Belated Free Nelson Mandela release that's actually up to them.Tuckles said:
The only difference between a professional developer and an amateur is that one makes a living from it and the other doesn't.
Why is there a degree in English Literature? Does that make one a professional Literature of some description? How about Media, or Geography or darts? Not only do you fail to comprehend the basic purpose of the academic system, but you won't find many software engineering graduates doing games development. Yes, yes you can. See, you look at the ingredients and nutritional info, and you compare it to the same nutritional and ingredient info on another can of non-premium dog food. Interestingly, the only dog food in this particular supermarket's range which differs in actual content is the budget stuff, which switches out a fair proportion of the beef and lamb for chicken.
No, you're being an idiot. I can get those resources, because at root they are all things which one finds freely available in nature. I could go and dig a mine until I find an iron ore seam, smelt the resulting ore down to the steel and aluminium required and so forth. It would then cost me nothing beyond the time I invest. Or I could simply buy the materials from my local merchants which is easier and quicker than harvesting and processing the raw materials myself, but starts to cost money instead. Or I could buy a self assembly kit which costs considerably more than buying at a bare resource level, but is still cheaper than buying the finished product. What is the key difference between each stage of buying this car which increases the price of the resultant purchase?
A contest is no easier to set up (someone has to enforce the rules on entries and judge the results, for example). Besides which it would assume a level of insanity on Paradox's part which I don't think exists.
a) There's no requirement for the game to be available to everyone. The object of the exercise is to make money, not help the homeless.
b) If they're living on 5 dollars a day, what the **** are they doing buying computer games in the first place?
Games are a luxury to everyone. Like all other luxuries, you pay through the nose for it because of this.
Like I said earlier, unless you happen to be a business adviser for Paradox software, I fail to see how your opinion of whether the pack will sell or not has any validity or interest to anyone.
Though aside from that, why would developers keep creating DLC, expansions and similar if they didn't make money?
If said portion refuses to pay you any further money, why would you want to keep them around in the first place?
Congratulations on having one of the few valid arguments in the thread.afterburner said:
Dain Ironfoot
Count
Miclee said:
You truly are a fickle fellow..
Redfyre
Banned
O.O
*Watches avy sneeze*
O.O
Oh right... ON TOPIC! I would pay a small amount too. Example of this type of "DLC"(Downloadable Content), could be games like Empire: Total War where they released a new units pack. Or maybe a game like Killing Floor where they released a $2.00 DLC that added 4 or 5 new outfits into the game to make you look more unique than other normal players.
*Watches avy sneeze*
O.O
Oh right... ON TOPIC! I would pay a small amount too. Example of this type of "DLC"(Downloadable Content), could be games like Empire: Total War where they released a new units pack. Or maybe a game like Killing Floor where they released a $2.00 DLC that added 4 or 5 new outfits into the game to make you look more unique than other normal players.
osdeath
Sergeant at Arms
Redfyre said:
*also watches the avy*
hmm? what? there was a topic? oh, right, topic. I can't say i'd personally buy a Mod player made, unless it got "finished up" by taleworlds as said earlier so it's properly polished 'n all, not that i overly like the idea in the first place.
Placing restrictions on a hobby can take the fun out of it for some, for others it can be an improvement. For most people it differs depending on the activity; some people can be fine with it in one hobby and absolutely hate it in another, it really depends on the person and where/why they derive satisfaction from the activity. Most people on this site presumably like playing games, but considerably fewer would be happy if they were restricted in what, when and how they could play as a games tester is.James said:
I don't like the idea of commercial modding, simply because it creates what's very much a two-tier system. In teams as loosely organised as many on TW, I can see MAJOR issues coming up with rights to profit and percentage splits. Also, what about OSP packs? What about people using each other's work? The sharing of code and files among the community is now very widespread. For example if I were to become a paid modder with SR, are James, Mirathei, Nema, et cetera, entiled to part of my profits for my use of their models and code? What about people who are "on the team" but have only really made a couple of scenes?
What if, for example, a modder got a model from SR and used it as part of a sold mod? Since that model is from my mod, can I request that he pays me for it, or can I tell him to remove it?
If modders worked totally on their lonesome, or in a completely insular team (and that said, a few do) this would work fine. However, in the file-sharing, open-source nature of the modding community we could see REAL issues coming up due to this.
Also, I'd really like to see a TaleWorlds stance on this whole thing. Above all it's our duty to support them as the creators of everything we have here.
What if, for example, a modder got a model from SR and used it as part of a sold mod? Since that model is from my mod, can I request that he pays me for it, or can I tell him to remove it?
If modders worked totally on their lonesome, or in a completely insular team (and that said, a few do) this would work fine. However, in the file-sharing, open-source nature of the modding community we could see REAL issues coming up due to this.
Also, I'd really like to see a TaleWorlds stance on this whole thing. Above all it's our duty to support them as the creators of everything we have here.
Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar
Master Knight
I agree with Archonsod about hobbies versus jobs. When testing repeated betas, as a hobby, I find the enjoyment of the game is greatly diminished by having to constantly keep an eye out for typos, misspelled words, misplaced commas and gameplay bugs.
Even with breaks from the testing "job" it gets to seem a lot like a full time job, not counting the hours actually spent working on the modi tself, independent of the hours spent test-playing. You could not pay me enough to do that kind of work professionally!
I still think that Paradox has opened a gigantic can of worms and have already heard of several potential problems that have been caused by their plan. From now on, everyone will have to copyright their work, iif they don't want to give permission for another to use it and sell the end product, and there cannot be the swapping back and forth of code, armor, etc. which has always been a given amongst many of the modders. That is rather sad. It also spells the end of the OSP, as there are horses in there that belong to Medieval Total War, apparently, and now everybody will have to basically work from scratch and/or check every single item they want to use from the OSP and make sure that all permissions are given, rather than just pulling something that works out of the OSP and putting a credit to the person who made it in the mod credits. This adds a lot more time to the job/pleasure of making a free mod.
I would also very much like to know what Armagan and Co. think about all this, and hope he will publish an official Taleworlds statement on the subject. I certainly don't begrudge him a dime of anything he can make and hope he makes a bomb off Warbands.
@Ilex - as Archonsod said in the thread back awhile, copyright laws differ from country to country, and also a modder has to have the resources to pursue a copyright infringement in another country, which most modders do not. Going after someone for unauthorized use of original art is very, very difficult, expensive and time-consuming, even in the US, which is a bastion of ambulance-chasing lawsuit filers. Sure, if
Paradox buys and sells a mod which uses unauthorized work, in theory the artist could pursue Paradox, but probably won't. What will happen is that there will simply be massive hard feelings, justifiably indignant postings on the Forum when the inevitable occurs and ugly situations constantly arising. Then, of course, there is the piracy problem . . .
Even with breaks from the testing "job" it gets to seem a lot like a full time job, not counting the hours actually spent working on the modi tself, independent of the hours spent test-playing. You could not pay me enough to do that kind of work professionally!
I still think that Paradox has opened a gigantic can of worms and have already heard of several potential problems that have been caused by their plan. From now on, everyone will have to copyright their work, iif they don't want to give permission for another to use it and sell the end product, and there cannot be the swapping back and forth of code, armor, etc. which has always been a given amongst many of the modders. That is rather sad. It also spells the end of the OSP, as there are horses in there that belong to Medieval Total War, apparently, and now everybody will have to basically work from scratch and/or check every single item they want to use from the OSP and make sure that all permissions are given, rather than just pulling something that works out of the OSP and putting a credit to the person who made it in the mod credits. This adds a lot more time to the job/pleasure of making a free mod.
I would also very much like to know what Armagan and Co. think about all this, and hope he will publish an official Taleworlds statement on the subject. I certainly don't begrudge him a dime of anything he can make and hope he makes a bomb off Warbands.
@Ilex - as Archonsod said in the thread back awhile, copyright laws differ from country to country, and also a modder has to have the resources to pursue a copyright infringement in another country, which most modders do not. Going after someone for unauthorized use of original art is very, very difficult, expensive and time-consuming, even in the US, which is a bastion of ambulance-chasing lawsuit filers. Sure, if
Paradox buys and sells a mod which uses unauthorized work, in theory the artist could pursue Paradox, but probably won't. What will happen is that there will simply be massive hard feelings, justifiably indignant postings on the Forum when the inevitable occurs and ugly situations constantly arising. Then, of course, there is the piracy problem . . .
Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar
Master Knight
@ Ilex: That would be the wisest course, but it would still cost lawyer's fees. They would settle out of court for a small fee, probably on orders from their insurance company. The lawyer would get most of the money. And what if the modder did not want his/her work used in a for pay mod in the first place? No money makes up for having your work used against your wishes.
Anyhow, what I am getting at is that I detest any situation which requires lawyers and nasty letters to Paradox about original art infringement at all. That's what I meant, about it being inevitable that a lot of hard feelings would be spawned by their actions, whether the mods are free and sold, whether the modders are paid or not, it is just going to cause arguments and trouble.
Anyhow, what I am getting at is that I detest any situation which requires lawyers and nasty letters to Paradox about original art infringement at all. That's what I meant, about it being inevitable that a lot of hard feelings would be spawned by their actions, whether the mods are free and sold, whether the modders are paid or not, it is just going to cause arguments and trouble.
Hate to shoot you down, but commissioning a work from someone is not equal to an employment contract. Try harder.
EDIT - And Turkey is not in the EU
EDIT - And Turkey is not in the EU
Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar
Master Knight
Under US law an independent contractor - which is what the modders would be if Paradox commissioned them to make an entirely new mod - is not subject to the same laws as an employee, both of which are clearly defined by the Feds with lists of what does and does not constitute an employee or an independent contractor. Neither status would apply to a modder selling his/her/their own finished work as a product to another entity. Even if Paradox commissioned a mod to be made, rather than paying the modder for an existing work, the modder would still be an independent contractor, not an employee. Mod teams don't all live in the same countries,either and would probably only be subject to the laws of the countries in which they are doing the work, though I suppose a guardhouse lawyer might argue that the nationality of the company commissioning the work might make it subject to the laws of the country in which the company is located.
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