The Ancient Debate: Flat Versus Edge

[Bromden]

Weapon preserving in peacetime (or between battles) should be natural for everybody who wields one.

But I think there's some misunderstanding. What you are saying is not "weapon preserving style",
But playing on the strengths of ones weapon while avoiding it's weaknesses.
Reading "weapon preserving style" I thought about some dumb sword-hugger who values
his weapon more than his life.

Some other things on steel toughness: If you hit two steel objects together, the harder will leave a mark
on the softer, whereas there won't be a scratch on the harder. It is similar with swords.
If sword A is made of better steel than sword B, and the two blades clash by the edge,
sword B will be chipped, while sword A will survive without any significant damage.
So if you had a Masamune, you didn't have to worry too much about braking it in battle.

Too hard steel will be rigid and break easily. That's why mixing various steel types
is key to quality swords. That method was not solely used in Japan, it was used in Europe too.
I know that quality viking swords were made like that, however with substantially different process.

 

[Blackthorn]

Some other things on steel toughness: If you hit two steel objects together, the harder will leave a mark
on the softer, whereas there won't be a scratch on the harder. It is similar with swords.
If sword A is made of better steel than sword B, and the two blades clash by the edge,
sword B will be chipped, while sword A will survive without any significant damage.
So if you had a Masamune, you didn't have to worry too much about braking it in battle.

Not quite. Steel isn't that simple- and even hard steel will suffer from striking softer steel (hence why chisels blunt against wood with age and use), it just suffers -less- damage than the other blade. Either way, mid-battle, you are effectively taking the edge of your sword, your primary means of offence, with each successive block and parry- especially if a blow shears down the edge of your blade.
I'd also suggest testing striking two sharpened edges together- both swords tend to suffer quite noticeably exaggerated 'notching', even to the extent that they sometimes stick together as they dovetail.

 

[Bromden]

Not quite. Steel isn't that simple- and even hard steel will suffer from striking softer steel (hence why chisels blunt against wood with age and use), it just suffers -less- damage than the other blade. Either way, mid-battle, you are effectively taking the edge of your sword, your primary means of offence, with each successive block and parry- especially if a blow shears down the edge of your blade.
I'd also suggest testing striking two sharpened edges together- both swords tend to suffer quite noticeably exaggerated 'notching', even to the extent that they sometimes stick together as they dovetail.

I'm no smith, only have a good amount of knifes and daggers, and got my experience about steel from them. I never clashed swords,
but I've seen some of that. The most amazing thing I saw after such an event was when a katana was damaged in a way that on a small part, about the size of a nail the outermost layer of the blade was "chipped". It was amazing; you could see that the refraction was different than at other parts but you couldn't feel any difference by touch. The other blade was chipped about 5mm deep. It was an accident during practice.

You still can cut off heads with a chipped blade. But as I stated first, I won't block with my sword until I have no other choice.
A good parry doesn't stress my sword and takes me in a better position.

 

[Blackthorn]

You still can cut off heads with a chipped blade.

Doubtful, seeing as it's virtually impossible to take off heads with a razor-sharp blade. But that's for the gore and dismemberment thread.
The point is though, with each successive chip or damage, you severely curtail the usefulness, and the life-span, of the sword. A flat deflection allows you to present the edge to your enemy throughout combat, whilst keeping the blade from being excessively damaged.

 

[Bromden]

Doubtful, seeing as it's virtually impossible to take off heads with a razor-sharp blade. But that's for the gore and dismemberment thread.

I'll answer this after I tried it first. By cutting experience I'd say it's possible with a good / heavy blade.

The point is though, with each successive chip or damage, you severely curtail the usefulness, and the life-span, of the sword.

You're right. But in battle sometimes you have no choice but to damage your weapon to win a fight. That warrior was lucky (or very good) who fought all the skirmishes of his life with the same sword without damaging or breaking it.

A flat deflection allows you to present the edge to your enemy throughout combat, whilst keeping the blade from being excessively damaged.

That's what I called parrying in my posts.

 

[Night Ninja]

A flat parry has less strength to it than an edge parry though.

Try opposing your opponent's flat with your edge. Keep applying pressure until he releases his grip on the weapon. Now, do the reverse (your flat against his edge). I think you'll find that you can exert much more force when you're using your edge. The edge is a plane of strength, whereas the flat is one of relative weakness. It's simple body mechanics.

Edge-on-edge is sometimes unavoidable, but you should generally attempt to pit your edge against his flat unless the specific technique you're doing states otherwise.

 

[Merlkir]

A flat parry has less strength to it than an edge parry though.

Try opposing your opponent's flat with your edge. Keep applying pressure until he releases his grip on the weapon. Now, do the reverse (your flat against his edge). I think you'll find that you can exert much more force when you're using your edge. The edge is a plane of strength, whereas the flat is one of relative weakness. It's simple body mechanics.

Edge-on-edge is sometimes unavoidable, but you should generally attempt to pit your edge against his flat unless the specific technique you're doing states otherwise.

Sorry, I don't think that's quite true. Can you explain why you think so?

(You may be right, but I think the "strength" is enough if you're parrying a sword.)

 

[Night Ninja]

You can easily exert more force when you're using the edge since it's aligned with your skeletal structure. I'm not sure how else to explain it unless you attempt the example that I posted.

In my experience, I find it far easier to impulse or displace swords by using the edge. Attempting a beat with the flat rarely works as well. In addition, the guard (posta frontale or kron) is structured in a way such that your edge will usually meet the opponent's sword.

 

[Merlkir]

You can easily exert more force when you're using the edge since it's aligned with your skeletal structure. I'm not sure how else to explain it unless you attempt the example that I posted.

In my experience, I find it far easier to impulse or displace swords by using the edge. Attempting a beat with the flat rarely works as well. In addition, the guard (posta frontale or kron) is structured in a way such that your edge will usually meet the opponent's sword.

húm. We must be holding the sword differently then, if I'm using the flat, it's aligned with the bones - even better than the edge. Since the wrist is turned when you parry, the hilt is pushed into your palm and not alongside/out of it.

 

[Blackthorn]

You can easily exert more force when you're using the edge since it's aligned with your skeletal structure. I'm not sure how else to explain it unless you attempt the example that I posted.

In my experience, I find it far easier to impulse or displace swords by using the edge. Attempting a beat with the flat rarely works as well. In addition, the guard (posta frontale or kron) is structured in a way such that your edge will usually meet the opponent's sword.

The wrist pivots in both directions almost equally- it is only the formation of the bones that stop it being forced backwards much further than 45 degrees- the lateral slightly more so (about 50 degrees)- but if your wrist is angled towards the strike and the blow is high-momentum, there's no real continuous stressful force acting against the wrist to force it back- (I've parried both ways, before you ask)- and the muscles quickly develop to make it more physically viable- which if we assume the method was trained-in, would be there from childhood. I could even see the argument for your method developing more post-shield as the parrying suddenly takes on more of an onus.

In my experience- I've always used the flat striking out and against my opponent's flat, even when fighting oppponents who use their edge continously the method still works, and allows you to 'scoop up' or 'scoop across' from the parry. A quick demo you can do without sword is to ask a person to bring their arm down at your head. Force it out quickly with the 'flat' of your arm out over to your left- a lot of force exerted really rapidly. Now you should have your arm over the top of theirs, and the 'edge' of your arm is presented up to their face/neck. A quick scoop up of the arm lands a blow to the face. Step to your right as you do this, thus avoiding any last-minute response from their sword. A lot of Mi.33 stances dictate that it is how your blades will likely meet- and allow you to rapidly force their weapon aside and lunge or cut home. Again- mostly in the case of 12th to 13th century combat you only use the sword to mis-direct particularly vicious blows that you then catch on your shield. In the case of knightly combat, you just have to reduce the power of their strike not neccersarily even stop it dead- it is unlikely a half-baffled sword will suddenly shear through rivetted maille.

 

[azzarol]

Been training Kenjutsu for 5 years or so... Edge with active dodging...And btw,Katana is sharper and more durable than European longswords/claymores, and it's flexibility makes it even more dangerous,if you know how to use it...

try to handle some european swords pal!

 

[Merlkir]

I'm slightly drunk, but I still smell bull. Katanas are anything BUT flexible. Unlike most european swords, you can actually bend them and they'll stay bent.

 

[Night Ninja]

Ignore the bugger, he's just some weeaboo katana plonker.

 

[Bromden]

I'm slightly drunk, but I still smell bull. Katanas are anything BUT flexible. Unlike most european swords, you can actually bend them and they'll stay bent.

I have to disagree. I've seen a iaito which has been bent 90 degrees and it got back to it's original shape flawlessly. It was a light blade.

 

[Merlkir]

I'm slightly drunk, but I still smell bull. Katanas are anything BUT flexible. Unlike most european swords, you can actually bend them and they'll stay bent.

I have to disagree. I've seen a iaito which has been bent 90 degrees and it got back to it's original shape flawlessly. It was a light blade.

that's because they were iaito - made from spring steel, not katanas made with the soft iron back (heh, just yesterday Patrick Bárta was describing how rigid katanas are on his seminar here. If that name rings a bell) . Iaito are lighter practice swords, for iaido, drawing and such.

 

[Volkodav]

I'm slightly drunk, but I still smell bull. Katanas are anything BUT flexible. Unlike most european swords, you can actually bend them and they'll stay bent.

I have to disagree. I've seen a iaito which has been bent 90 degrees and it got back to it's original shape flawlessly. It was a light blade.

that's because they were iaito - made from spring steel, not katanas made with the soft iron back (heh, just yesterday Patrick Bárta was describing how rigid katanas are on his seminar here. If that name rings a bell) . Iaito are lighter practice swords, for iaido, drawing and such.

Woah woah woah...
Man,what the HELL... Are you high?
Katana is forged from two types of steel,one to give the sword it's strength (it's very brittle),the other one to give it FLEXIBILITY and prevent the blade from cracking...

 

[Night Ninja]

That makes no sense. It'd just mean that the brittle edge would give long before the softer iron back.

 

[Volkodav]

WHAT.THE.HELL??? IRON??? WHAT IRON...Katana is made of Tamahagane... Two types of STEEL,one hard but brittle,the
other one flexible but gets blunt fast...The construction of the sword differed from smith to smith ... Jesus 'H' Christ!!! 

 

[Merlkir]

I'm slightly drunk, but I still smell bull. Katanas are anything BUT flexible. Unlike most european swords, you can actually bend them and they'll stay bent.

I have to disagree. I've seen a iaito which has been bent 90 degrees and it got back to it's original shape flawlessly. It was a light blade.

that's because they were iaito - made from spring steel, not katanas made with the soft iron back (heh, just yesterday Patrick Bárta was describing how rigid katanas are on his seminar here. If that name rings a bell) . Iaito are lighter practice swords, for iaido, drawing and such.

Woah woah woah...
Man,what the HELL... Are you high?
Katana is forged from two types of steel,one to give the sword it's strength (it's very brittle),the other one to give it FLEXIBILITY and prevent the blade from cracking...

That's not entirely true. 1) it's not two types of steel - the back of the sword is not tempered (that's why you cover it in clay before tempering the blade). So it's much closer to iron.
2) it doesn't give flexibility, at least not that kind you imagine. It is more flexible than the edge, sure, it soaks impact. But a katana WILL bend. It's not springy, you can't bend it to the hilt and expect it to return to its original shape. (as you can with some western swords)

it's actually the back which gives the blade strength - the edge gives something else and that's hardness.

WHAT.THE.HELL??? IRON??? WHAT IRON...Katana is made of Tamahagane... Two types of STEEL,one hard but brittle,the
other one flexible but gets blunt fast...The construction of the sword differed from smith to smith ... Jesus 'H' Christ!!! 

ech. I don't feel like explaining this to you.

 

[Volkodav]

OK!OK! I'm the stupid one here...Jesus...