Swadian matters...

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winrehs007

Knight
The Kingdom of Swadia was once my favorite faction but due to some issues, I shifted to the Vaegirs and since then, never looked back. Still, I have some questions about the Swadians:

1.) If you have an army of (Purely)Swadians, how can you stop a Cavalry charge effectively with minor casualties?

2.) How to best utilize the Swadian Highlander?
 
Swadians have plenty of infantry with polearms. Or of course you could meet enemy cavalry with your own, since Swadians have great heavy cavalry units with lances.

As for the Swadian Highlander, I suppose you'll want cavalry to go after enemy archers ASAP to prevent them from getting killed. They're a pretty terrible siege unit though, no shields is pretty weak for a tier 6 infantry unit, and their armor isn't good enough to really mitigate that weakness significantly. Might just be the reason Swadian AI gets stomped immediately almost every game - none of their infantry past tier 4 has a shield.
 
anoddhermit said:
They're a pretty terrible siege unit though, no shields is pretty weak for a tier 6 infantry unit, and their armor isn't good enough to really mitigate that weakness significantly. Might just be the reason Swadian AI gets stomped immediately almost every game - none of their infantry past tier 4 has a shield.

So very true.
 
winrehs007 said:
anoddhermit said:
They're a pretty terrible siege unit though, no shields is pretty weak for a tier 6 infantry unit, and their armor isn't good enough to really mitigate that weakness significantly. Might just be the reason Swadian AI gets stomped immediately almost every game - none of their infantry past tier 4 has a shield.

So very true.

I don't believe unit equipment or even tactical usefulness gets taken into consideration with AI vs. AI battles - the game only looks at either army's average unit tier and size. Could be wrong, but it means a whole stack of Highlanders in an AI's army could beat a whole stack of tier 5 archers commanded by another AI lord, even if it wouldn't actually play out that way, were the player involved.

EDIT: Caba'drin's comment, which confirms the above:

Caba`drin said:
Note that, on a whole, AI battles between one another are determined by the relative size of the parties and the levels of the troops involved. Gear, skills, etc, really aren't taken into account. In addition to these Native bits, we've added some relative advantages and disadvantages for certain troop types on certain terrains--Sarranids get a strength bump in the desert, etc--but the battle simulation is and remains rather abstract and simplistic.
 
Commodore_Axephante said:
winrehs007 said:
anoddhermit said:
They're a pretty terrible siege unit though, no shields is pretty weak for a tier 6 infantry unit, and their armor isn't good enough to really mitigate that weakness significantly. Might just be the reason Swadian AI gets stomped immediately almost every game - none of their infantry past tier 4 has a shield.

So very true.

I don't believe unit equipment or even tactical usefulness gets taken into consideration with AI vs. AI battles - the game only looks at either army's average unit tier and size. Could be wrong, but it means a whole stack of Highlanders in an AI's army could beat a whole stack of tier 5 archers commanded by another AI lord, even if it wouldn't actually play out that way, were the player involved.

EDIT: Caba'drin's comment, which confirms the above:

Caba`drin said:
Note that, on a whole, AI battles between one another are determined by the relative size of the parties and the levels of the troops involved. Gear, skills, etc, really aren't taken into account. In addition to these Native bits, we've added some relative advantages and disadvantages for certain troop types on certain terrains--Sarranids get a strength bump in the desert, etc--but the battle simulation is and remains rather abstract and simplistic.

That is why I told in my post above that "your( the player) army" and not the AI.
 
Swadians are okay if you use their strengths. The way I play Swadia is something loosely based on what I remember medieval English tactics to be like from books and movies. There are two main strategies I use for open field engagements. One is reliant on the longbow, the other is on infantry + cavalry charge. The first is a little more straightforward, replacing regular shielded infantry with cavalry (who all have shields, mind you). The second is way more fun for me, and is very effective and a faster way to end a battle, if you do it right.


Strategy A: "Longbow Abuse"
The longbow archer line is one of the fastest and most effective in the game. Use them like the English used them IRL: set them up where they can reach the enemy line and let them darken the sky with arrows. You need to position them well, and hide them behind shielded units. Swadian cavalry all have shields. Even the light ones. You may want to use them as a shield wall, positioning them in front of your longbowmen. Their horses can also absorb some enemy arrows, so your own archers can survive longer. Note that when fighting Swadian armies they might also use this tactic. I noticed this a lot when I was helping Lady Isolla reclaim the Swadian throne.

If you're really going to use this strategy, you're going to need your army to be comprised of at least 40% archers. I actually went 50-60%, with the rest being mostly cavalry for shields and for finishing off the remainder of their line.


Strategy B: "'Light' Heavy Infantry"
The Highlander is a good offensive unit, with very fast and high-damage two-handed weapons and Power Strike 10. This pretty much means they can kill absolutely anything in one or two hits (usually just one hit). They can also kill horseman + horse in one swipe, but you won't need them for that.

They should be used the same way most offensive infantry units should be used: charging in behind cavalry (if you like cavalry charges) or sent on a flanking run. This is the same way I play when I'm using Sarranid (Yeniceri + Tabardariyya) or Rhodok (Guardia Ducalie) units, and it's very effective even if it takes a bit of patience and understanding of the flow of the battlefield.

The main thing you want is to make sure you dictate where their archers are firing. You want to avoid charging with your infantry when their archers are firing on you. You're going to want to create a diversion using your cavalry. Your archers will set up a base of fire just to keep their attention on you, but you don't need a lot of archers for this. During all this, your infantry (hopefully mostly Highlanders and some Skirmishers for support) would be moving to the side or even behind their line. I like to divide the infantry into at least 2 divisions for this, so you can complete a "pincer" move by attacking from two sides simultaneously.

When you do this, they might break formation and fight you with melee weapons, which is ideal because the Highlanders are very good at killing in close combat. If you have cavalry, now would be the time to make them charge. At this point their morale will be broken and you'll just be chasing down runners. If you expect them to have reinforcements, spawn camp them (lol) by leaving your infantry at the point where they spawn. Dozens will die before they even get a chance to draw their weapon. Rinse, repeat.

The Swadians are rather tricky to use because they're not your typical shields + archer + cavalry equation, but I think they're very effective and scary when used right. If you're going to use these tactics, especially the second one, I recommend not participating too much in the combat and focusing instead on being a battlefield commander. I sometimes get carried away with trying to kill as many of them as possible that I haven't noticed that I already lost an entire unit, or that we're already getting overwhelmed or outflanked by enemy cavalry.
 
Hanakoganei said:
If you expect them to have reinforcements, spawn camp them (lol) by leaving your infantry at the point where they spawn. Dozens will die before they even get a chance to draw their weapon. Rinse, repeat.

Lol indeed. Sounds like fun.

The alternative metagamy thing I do that involves spawn points is moving the location of battle as close to my own spawn point and as far from the opponent's spawn point as possible. This means that my own reinforcements are ready for battle the moment they spawn in, but the opponent's reinforcements have to run all the way to me, giving me more time to finish off the last of the previous batch and also stringing them out so that they arrive in dribs and drabs. Maybe everyone does this and it isn't anything special, but thought I'd put it out there anyway.
 
eastpaw said:
Maybe everyone does this and it isn't anything special, but thought I'd put it out there anyway.
If it helps, I don't do it except when I'm probably going to lose otherwise. :grin: I try my best to avoid battles I don't think I can win by being offensive, but sometimes it's inevitable. I tend to play a very fast and offensive game while still doing my best to minimize losses. That's why my army has a lot of two-hander infantry.

I think your strategy is a sound defensive strategy and can really kill many of their overzealous soldiers, and sometimes even pull them back to regroup, giving you an advantage if you hold still and whittle them away with archers or cut them off with cavalry. Both of which Swadian troops are very good at doing.
 
Hanakoganei said:
Strategy A: "Longbow Abuse"
The longbow archer line is one of the fastest and most effective in the game. Use them like the English used them IRL: set them up where they can reach the enemy line and let them darken the sky with arrows. You need to position them well, and hide them behind shielded units. Swadian cavalry all have shields. Even the light ones. You may want to use them as a shield wall, positioning them in front of your longbowmen. Their horses can also absorb some enemy arrows, so your own archers can survive longer. Note that when fighting Swadian armies they might also use this tactic. I noticed this a lot when I was helping Lady Isolla reclaim the Swadian throne.

If you're really going to use this strategy, you're going to need your army to be comprised of at least 40% archers. I actually went 50-60%, with the rest being mostly cavalry for shields and for finishing off the remainder of their line.

I never thought of my Cavalry as shields because I'm used to the Vaegir's Infantry as a very effective shock-absorber Infantry unit. Really never thought of this. Thanks for the idea dude, I will try this on my next play-trough.
 
They used this strategy IRL too. Medieval English military doctrine seems to use heavy cavalry as the front liners with the longbows just behind them. They soften the enemy up with arrows first then while the enemy is hiding behind/under their shields, the cavalry charges, followed immediately by the infantry. I think the strategy works well with Swadia too. If you have enough heavy cavalry you don't need that many archers if you're going to use this straightforward approach.
 
Very interesting! That translates perfectly into Floris with regard to troops since the Swadians' three best unit types are their heavy cavalry, archers, and offensive infantry. I'm used to using these same units somewhat differently - I'd send my cavalry on flanking runs very early on and push out the infantry later - but it sounds like this would work even better especially if one has high Surgery skill as you do. But a lot would depend on terrain and enemy, I suppose.

Question: did the English face many pike-heavy formations? If so, how did this plan work out for them?
 
I'm not going to claim to know a lot about English military history or tactics, but there are a few things I've noticed. They were reliant and very proud of their heavy cavalry (and massive numbers of rapid-firing longbows of course) for head-on charges instead of flanking runs. I think they used this as a dual purpose thing, both for direct damage and for the demoralization effect that it had when they trample the front line with horses (causing the weaker-willed soldiers to flee in terror). There's lots of evidence both in writing and artistic depictions (particularly tapestries and stuff) that show their horsemen trampling the enemy with the infantry and archers behind them, which to me suggests that they were used a lot for head-on attacks. The archers were more likely to go on flanking runs, as there is existing writing of longbow military doctrine for acquiring an enfilading fire angle to inflict maximum casualties on the enemy line even with the inaccurate longbow.

If you remember the movie Braveheart, they were so arrogant that their heavy cavalry could simply overrun William Wallace's light infantry units. I know there's some historical accuracy to the use of makeshift pikes to counter the heavy cavalry, or at least as internet resources claim. Apparently the pike was one of the keys to the Scottish resistance being successful against the seemingly invincible heavy cavalry of the English at the time (in the movie I remember them saying that no army has ever won against their heavy cavalry without having cavalry of their own, probably for couched lance confrontations in the open field), as it was cheap to make and easy to train in (easier than a sword anyway), which was perfect for the peasant armies.

I would have to say though, based on the other opponents that the medieval English armies were used to facing, they didn't deal with pikes a lot, and didn't really fear pikemen so much. I remember reading that the French used pikes a bit, but not as a primary infantry doctrine. The English themselves didn't really use pikes as an infantry weapon or have a pikeman division until much later than the medieval era, which Warband is loosely based on. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

I'll have to research a bit more because your question got me curious. But for the most part, there's no reason you shouldn't use your heavy cavalry for flanking or frontline charging. In Floris we have quite a few pike-heavy infantry formations. Even the Sarranids are a little scary if you're fighting a bigger army. I looked at their front line and was like, "Oh it's just Al Haqanni. They're only tier 4 units and their shields are the size of dinner plates." I charged my horses in then blam, stopped by desert pikes. I got knocked out in that battle, and I learned from then on to get rid of the pikemen first before charging the horses in.

As you said the terrain will play an important role in your decision-making for this. I only send infantry-only or light cavalry flankers if I know they'll have some kind of cover like a hill or something, or if I can keep their archers firing on my front line instead of them. For all the variables of combat, this is why I have to stay out of the battle myself and stay on a horse and even ride up to a high point of the battlefield, just to make sure I can direct the tactics better.

But as a matter of personal preference, there's a certain manly feel to it when you line your heavy cavalry and infantry up as a frontline charge, especially if you're right there with them lol. That's why for Swadia I typically play in this doctrine, much like how I play with fast light infantry and cavalry with Sarranids: not the smartest way to build an army, but it sure feels good when it works. I sometimes get an adrenaline rush when their archers are taking a few of us down or arrows zip by my head, but I slowly push my line forward until the opponent has no choice but to retreat. Because once that front line gets in there, the battle is definitely over, even if they call in reinforcements. Did you notice that reinforcements are generally lower tier troops that look like sad, sad peasants? By the time they've called in some reinforcements, my front line is already upon them and it's just so sad to see how many of the enemy is dying just like that lol. I feel bad sometimes and want to grant them safe passage if they drop their arms and go back to farming or something. But they keep fighting, so we have no choice but to slaughter them. Even after they flee they sometimes reform their ranks and try to throw stones at us... :sad:
 
Hanakoganei said:
The archers were more likely to go on flanking runs, as there is existing writing of longbow military doctrine for acquiring an enfilading fire angle to inflict maximum casualties on the enemy line even with the inaccurate longbow.

I wonder why I had not thought of flanking with my bowmen rather than with cav. :razz: That's a right good idea since Swadian archers are very quick on their feet!

Hanakoganei said:
If you remember the movie Braveheart...

And that makes me want to watch it now. lol

Hanakoganei said:
Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

I wouldn't know. :smile:

Hanakoganei said:
But as a matter of personal preference, there's a certain manly feel to it when you line your heavy cavalry and infantry up as a frontline charge, especially if you're right there with them lol.

I hear ya. lol

Hanakoganei said:
Because once that front line gets in there, the battle is definitely over, even if they call in reinforcements. Did you notice that reinforcements are generally lower tier troops that look like sad, sad peasants? By the time they've called in some reinforcements, my front line is already upon them and it's just so sad to see how many of the enemy is dying just like that lol.

I sometimes like to fight very bad odds for the heck of it (and sometimes have no choice). If the enemy outnumbers you significantly (say, 5 to 1 or 10 to 1), you'd likely get a few waves of relatively strong units. In this situation, pushing into the enemy spawn area can be quite... uncomfortable.

Hanakoganei said:
I feel bad sometimes and want to grant them safe passage if they drop their arms and go back to farming or something. But they keep fighting, so we have no choice but to slaughter them. Even after they flee they sometimes reform their ranks and try to throw stones at us... :sad:

Stalwart loyalty or simple-minded maliciousness? You decide. :razz:
 
I imagine professional soldiers, even poorly-trained ones will probably feel a sense of duty even if it means their demise. Part of them wants to flee for their lives, the other wants them to try to kill just one more guy before they go. It's sometimes successful though. I watched one of my precious Landsknechts get stabbed by an I1 unit with a knife, just before he left the battlefield to accept being routed. I guess it's my Landsknecht's fault for being too arrogant. D:
 
I didnt read through this thread very carefully so if it was brought up I apologize, but how do you stop a swadian heavy cav charge as a nord? Does it still work to clump your infantry up, making the cavalry stuck when charging?
 
Yeah but you may want to group your nords that have spears as a separate division. Clumping soldiers up is an effective way to stop cavalry. You can do this even with soldiers that don't have shields, but there's a chance that whoever is in front will die. Actually there's still a chance that he'll die even if he had a shield, depending on if he chooses to raise the shield or try to attack as the rider's lance pierces his chest, but obviously the odds of getting killed are higher without a shield.

The swordsmen and axemen can still stop a Swadian charge but the spears are typically more effective. You don't even need to tell them to brace their spears. The range of the spears is usually enough to kill the riders and even the horses sometimes.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the Swadians are more formidable in the "Reworked Tree" due to the fact that their tier-4 and 5 infantry have strong shields.
 
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