Yea i like warbands original sword/spear thrust i don't think that needs any changing.
[Suggestion] Ready and Block Positions - In-game Pictures of Suggested New Poses
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Berserker Pride
Grandmaster Knight
I much prefer your new one-handed sword and spear thrust animation. It seems like it would have a cool snap to it as your arms straighten. The Warband one just hangs out there completely horizontal right now. Also thinking about it the Warband one would feel more awkward to perform.
wolfstriked
Squire
The right to left polearm is excellent as well!
Elric_de_Melnibone
Knight at Arms
Hah, you're my new hero.
I love the new polearm-animations.
Sword-Animations are better than those we have in Warband, but there's still room for improvement.
All of that is just my opinion, of course.
I love the new polearm-animations.
Sword-Animations are better than those we have in Warband, but there's still room for improvement.
All of that is just my opinion, of course.
Thanks, everyone, for the kind words and feedback.
I know the suggested high thrust position looks (and feels) a bit odd at first, but I'm fairly certain that it was a real technique. If you think I'm crazy, assume M&B's two-handed sword thrust position, then take out the left arm. What you're left with is practically the same as the high thrust I posed. Whether this guard was common on the battlefield or not is something I'm less sure of, but I'm certain it would've been used for duelling. Remember as well that the attack from this position wouldn't necessarily be a high thrust - you can easily make any of several different strikes from that position. In fact, I think it's possible that this position might have been used partly because a variety of strikes can come more or less directly from it, unlike with the low thrust position, from which you can basically only thrust. See this video for some techniques (adapted from German fighting manuals) involving this guard. Also note that against unarmoured targets you don't need much power to cause damage, so this thrust technique needn't be the most forceful.
Having said all that, I don't really have a strong preference for which one should be used in Warband. I showed a proper high thrust position first because the game currently uses a high thrust. The low thrust position has the advantage of being more intuitive to block, but it might be too subtle to see coming, since it's not much different from the idle pose. Either would be fine as far as I'm concerned. You could even have both - in my custom animations module, both thrusts are initiated with the same mouse movement (the game randomly selects one or the other).
Thrusts II: Revenge of the High Thrust
Notes:
~ Yes, I did use the same positions for swords and spears again. In fact, all of these positions are modified versions of my original, one-handed, low spear thrust - I just reposed the skeleton by eye, without using visual references. So technically, the positions should probably be a bit different (since the weapons differ in weight, balance and usage), but I was lazy and thought they were basically good enough. They give the right idea anyway.
~ Again, for the two-handed spear positions, the spear is held too close to the point. At the moment, I can't work out how to fix this (the right hand seems locked in position on the haft). Also, the spear should probably be angled slightly less steeply, to account for the extra length provided by a proper grip or longer weapons.
~ In the two-handed polearm/halfsword high thrust, the left hand is reversed. That is, in both poses, the thumbs of the hands are facing each other. For the halfsword, this is correct, but for the polearm it might not be. The hand would be the other way around if I wasn’t so lazy. Luckily, the picture quality is low enough that you can’t really tell!
~ I’m not really suggesting all of these positions be put into Warband, but many of my poses work tolerably for both swords and polearms, so I thought I may as well show them for both. At this stage, I think the spear thrusts at least should all come from a low ready position for blocking purposes. Although, the forumite called inox ionizer suggested, in this thread, that spears could have a high thrust, in addition to the low thrust, that would be triggered and blocked just like an overhead swing. I think that would be reasonable, if we were willing to lose the overhead swing for some polearms. (I think a high thrust may well have been more common than an overhead swing for thrusting polearms.)
~ With the comparison shot below, you'll see that the joints of the arms are in more comfortable positions in the new poses, and that the general body posture now looks more aggressive, as if there is an opponent in front of the character.
Expect new poses for two-handed weapons by this time tomorrow.
I know the suggested high thrust position looks (and feels) a bit odd at first, but I'm fairly certain that it was a real technique. If you think I'm crazy, assume M&B's two-handed sword thrust position, then take out the left arm. What you're left with is practically the same as the high thrust I posed. Whether this guard was common on the battlefield or not is something I'm less sure of, but I'm certain it would've been used for duelling. Remember as well that the attack from this position wouldn't necessarily be a high thrust - you can easily make any of several different strikes from that position. In fact, I think it's possible that this position might have been used partly because a variety of strikes can come more or less directly from it, unlike with the low thrust position, from which you can basically only thrust. See this video for some techniques (adapted from German fighting manuals) involving this guard. Also note that against unarmoured targets you don't need much power to cause damage, so this thrust technique needn't be the most forceful.
Having said all that, I don't really have a strong preference for which one should be used in Warband. I showed a proper high thrust position first because the game currently uses a high thrust. The low thrust position has the advantage of being more intuitive to block, but it might be too subtle to see coming, since it's not much different from the idle pose. Either would be fine as far as I'm concerned. You could even have both - in my custom animations module, both thrusts are initiated with the same mouse movement (the game randomly selects one or the other).
Thrusts II: Revenge of the High Thrust
Notes:
~ Yes, I did use the same positions for swords and spears again. In fact, all of these positions are modified versions of my original, one-handed, low spear thrust - I just reposed the skeleton by eye, without using visual references. So technically, the positions should probably be a bit different (since the weapons differ in weight, balance and usage), but I was lazy and thought they were basically good enough. They give the right idea anyway.
~ Again, for the two-handed spear positions, the spear is held too close to the point. At the moment, I can't work out how to fix this (the right hand seems locked in position on the haft). Also, the spear should probably be angled slightly less steeply, to account for the extra length provided by a proper grip or longer weapons.
~ In the two-handed polearm/halfsword high thrust, the left hand is reversed. That is, in both poses, the thumbs of the hands are facing each other. For the halfsword, this is correct, but for the polearm it might not be. The hand would be the other way around if I wasn’t so lazy. Luckily, the picture quality is low enough that you can’t really tell!
~ I’m not really suggesting all of these positions be put into Warband, but many of my poses work tolerably for both swords and polearms, so I thought I may as well show them for both. At this stage, I think the spear thrusts at least should all come from a low ready position for blocking purposes. Although, the forumite called inox ionizer suggested, in this thread, that spears could have a high thrust, in addition to the low thrust, that would be triggered and blocked just like an overhead swing. I think that would be reasonable, if we were willing to lose the overhead swing for some polearms. (I think a high thrust may well have been more common than an overhead swing for thrusting polearms.)
~ With the comparison shot below, you'll see that the joints of the arms are in more comfortable positions in the new poses, and that the general body posture now looks more aggressive, as if there is an opponent in front of the character.
Expect new poses for two-handed weapons by this time tomorrow.
Certainly. It's the same thrust on foot and on horseback. I think a high thrust on horseback should really be done with a reverse grip, but I'm not certain. Here's the high thrust with the normal grip anyway.
New ready positions for two-handed swords:
Two-handed ready positions from Warband:
Things to look for in Warband’s positions:
Overhead. The left elbow is too far back (uncomfortable), and the hands are too close together. The hands being too close together is an issue with many of Warband’s two-handed animations, especially for axes (which should really have their own animations, or use polearm animations). Other than that, I think this is one of the better ready positions in-game at the moment, simply because you could actually stand like this for a reasonable length of time. The same goes for Warband's high thrust.
Right-to-left strike. The right arm looks a bit uncomfortable (elbow pointing downwards rather than backwards), and the left arm is stretched to be completely straight. Also, the posture is leant over backwards and to the side a bit when it should probably be leaning forwards (if it’s a guard/threat rather than a chamber). As with many Warband’s positions, this seems to be a freeze-frame of a movement (which may have been motion captured), rather than a position intended to be held fairly static.
Left-to-right strike. Again, looks like a freeze-frame of a movement. This position would be fairly uncomfortable to hold (stretched right arm, bent left wrist), but looks reasonable for a position that you’d pass through while doing a cut.
I think now the only positions I haven't done are the left-to-right strike for one-handers, and the high thrust for two-handed swords. I consider both of these pretty reasonable already (although the left-to-right could use some polishing), so I'll leave them for now. I might do the left-to-right anyway, especially if anyone requests it.
So, let me know if you can think of any specific improvements (or replacements) for any of the poses so far. Also, if you'd like to see any other specific poses, I'd be delighted to make them.
New ready positions for two-handed swords:
Two-handed ready positions from Warband:
Things to look for in Warband’s positions:
Overhead. The left elbow is too far back (uncomfortable), and the hands are too close together. The hands being too close together is an issue with many of Warband’s two-handed animations, especially for axes (which should really have their own animations, or use polearm animations). Other than that, I think this is one of the better ready positions in-game at the moment, simply because you could actually stand like this for a reasonable length of time. The same goes for Warband's high thrust.
Right-to-left strike. The right arm looks a bit uncomfortable (elbow pointing downwards rather than backwards), and the left arm is stretched to be completely straight. Also, the posture is leant over backwards and to the side a bit when it should probably be leaning forwards (if it’s a guard/threat rather than a chamber). As with many Warband’s positions, this seems to be a freeze-frame of a movement (which may have been motion captured), rather than a position intended to be held fairly static.
Left-to-right strike. Again, looks like a freeze-frame of a movement. This position would be fairly uncomfortable to hold (stretched right arm, bent left wrist), but looks reasonable for a position that you’d pass through while doing a cut.
I think now the only positions I haven't done are the left-to-right strike for one-handers, and the high thrust for two-handed swords. I consider both of these pretty reasonable already (although the left-to-right could use some polishing), so I'll leave them for now. I might do the left-to-right anyway, especially if anyone requests it.
So, let me know if you can think of any specific improvements (or replacements) for any of the poses so far. Also, if you'd like to see any other specific poses, I'd be delighted to make them.
Attacksmurfen
Sergeant
Hey, good stuff there 
I think you got it all mostly right, some suggestions though:
The low thrusting guard. The point should be pointing at the opponents face/throat, to present a real threat, this goes for the high thrusting guard too (and it already does, looks like).
The left/right guards. When you hold your hands to your right, you will need to cross your hands - you don't swap their positions like in your model, that's unheard of in longsword fencing - you can do it with poleweapons though.
The problem is that the right/left swings in Warband doesn't make any (martial) sence, you wouldn't throw a swing that doesn't protect your head, if you get countered with a diagonal swing the other guy will hit your head and your sword will hit his sword from a weaker position for you - you lose. So what is needed is to change the swing, to make it from another angle, i.e. 75 degrees up to down (if 0 is horizontal and 90 is vertical).
If that's done, you would want to stand with your hips turned against your opponent (more or less, not pointing to the side though). Your sword is aligned close to your shoulder, with the edge facing the opponent (to make the swing faster).
Of course, when holding a shield you would always hold it so that it blocks incomming attacks that is, you hold it like you block in-game, but practically all the time and just turn it slightly to face and deflect incoming attacks, but large shields would be to heavy for that so you would just hold them in the general dierection of the enemy.
I think you got it all mostly right, some suggestions though:
The low thrusting guard. The point should be pointing at the opponents face/throat, to present a real threat, this goes for the high thrusting guard too (and it already does, looks like).
The left/right guards. When you hold your hands to your right, you will need to cross your hands - you don't swap their positions like in your model, that's unheard of in longsword fencing - you can do it with poleweapons though.
The problem is that the right/left swings in Warband doesn't make any (martial) sence, you wouldn't throw a swing that doesn't protect your head, if you get countered with a diagonal swing the other guy will hit your head and your sword will hit his sword from a weaker position for you - you lose. So what is needed is to change the swing, to make it from another angle, i.e. 75 degrees up to down (if 0 is horizontal and 90 is vertical).
If that's done, you would want to stand with your hips turned against your opponent (more or less, not pointing to the side though). Your sword is aligned close to your shoulder, with the edge facing the opponent (to make the swing faster).
Of course, when holding a shield you would always hold it so that it blocks incomming attacks that is, you hold it like you block in-game, but practically all the time and just turn it slightly to face and deflect incoming attacks, but large shields would be to heavy for that so you would just hold them in the general dierection of the enemy.
Something I forgot to mention before: I'm planning now to replace some of the blocking poses from the game. I have things in mind, but I'm open for suggestions for which poses to do and how to do them.
I might tweak it or remake it to fix that.
Thanks!Attacksmurfen said:Hey, good stuff there
Yes. I intended to have it this way, but it looked like I was deforming the model too much in the animation editor. Seeing the screenshot, it looks like I could've done it right after all. I've been impatient to get them in-game, so some corners were cut. For example, most of the later poses in this thread were done by editing earlier poses, so some sometimes the posture wasn't quite like the photo references. That's basically why the point is too high in the low thrust position.
I might tweak it or remake it to fix that.
The right hand is just below the crossguard for all my longsword pictures. I think you got left and right mixed up for a moment.
Yeah. I've thought for a while that diagonal cuts should be used instead. I hadn't thought of it like this though!
So do you mean that the hip is off a bit in my poses?
Attacksmurfen
Sergeant
Hehe I guess the coffee hadn't kicked in yet, left to right is correct
What I mean with the hips is that turning them away is not needed to do if you hold your sword on your shoulder, it slows you down. If you hold your sword like this:
It makes sence to turn your hips to the side.
Imagine now that from the position above, you transit to your position for the right swing. The sword would move forward and so would your body, and your hips would turn.
What I mean with the hips is that turning them away is not needed to do if you hold your sword on your shoulder, it slows you down. If you hold your sword like this:
It makes sence to turn your hips to the side.
Imagine now that from the position above, you transit to your position for the right swing. The sword would move forward and so would your body, and your hips would turn.
That's awesome. Clear difference between high and low. Hope you sort out the positioning of the grip.Papa Lazarou said:
FrisianDude
Archduke
Holy carp. Papa Lazarou, you're an artist. I would love to play with those animations.
As a matter of fact, have you considered modding?
Papa Lazarou, you're an artist. I would love to play with those animations. As a matter of fact, have you considered modding?
Haha, thanks. I'm happy with most of the poses, but nothing I've done took a particularly high level of skill. To make these poses, I just got some visual references (pictures of myself taken squarely from the front and side), then imported them into the editing program, scaled and positioned them, and then matched the skeleton to the pictures by rotating the bones so that they covered the corresponding body parts when viewed exactly from the front and side. You can tell I haven't done a particularly expert job with the skeleton, since I didn't quite get some positions right (weapon angle the longsword thrust), and the mesh is a bit broken in some poses (upper arm/shoulder in the longsword swings).
Also, these are only single frames. Ready positions in 1.011 practically have only one frame of animation, so even with one frame, my positions still blend fine with the movement and idle poses from the game. Some of the attacks don't blend quite so well, but that's because my ready positions weren't designed for the game's attack animations.
So I was lucky really. I only had to do a single frame for each, and the positions are things for which I could get basically ideal visual references (to the extent that I could stand properly).
In theory, I could do animations with movement (like for attacks), but it would take at least a bit longer if I wanted to use visual references (and I would), since I'd have to take screencaptures from footage at set intervals and all that. I've had reasonably good animated movements in-editor using this technique with another skeleton, and I'd like to try doing some for M&B, but don't expect them straight away.
It's a useful point though, and I'll keep it in mind when I make more. I expect more frontal hips would also make the pose blend better with the game's forward movement.
Like I said, most of them blend well with the attacks in 1.011, so I'd just need to pick a selection of them that worked properly.
Also, these are only single frames. Ready positions in 1.011 practically have only one frame of animation, so even with one frame, my positions still blend fine with the movement and idle poses from the game. Some of the attacks don't blend quite so well, but that's because my ready positions weren't designed for the game's attack animations.
So I was lucky really. I only had to do a single frame for each, and the positions are things for which I could get basically ideal visual references (to the extent that I could stand properly).
In theory, I could do animations with movement (like for attacks), but it would take at least a bit longer if I wanted to use visual references (and I would), since I'd have to take screencaptures from footage at set intervals and all that. I've had reasonably good animated movements in-editor using this technique with another skeleton, and I'd like to try doing some for M&B, but don't expect them straight away.
Okay. So you're saying the hips in my pose are turned to the side too much? Although it felt comfortable when I was standing that way, I see what you mean when you say the hips should be more frontal. However, I'm also feeling a bit too lazy to fix it right now, unless you think it's a serious problem.Attacksmurfen said:
It's a useful point though, and I'll keep it in mind when I make more. I expect more frontal hips would also make the pose blend better with the game's forward movement.
I'll probably fiddle with the weapon positioning in the next polearm animation I do. Assuming I can change the position of the right hand on the weapon, I should be able to make some poses with reverse weapon grips as well. (I can already reverse or shift the grip of the left hand, there's nothing to that.)inox_ionizer said:That's awesome. Clear difference between high and low. Hope you sort out the positioning of the grip.Papa Lazarou said:
At this point I'd say I plan to release these positions, if I can work out how to. I assume I'd need to release my new "skeletons.brf" file - to replace the one in commonres - in addition to the module that tells the game which positions to reference.FrisianDude said:As a matter of fact, have you considered modding?
Like I said, most of them blend well with the attacks in 1.011, so I'd just need to pick a selection of them that worked properly.
It slightly annoys me.
It's a mirrored right-to-left, just on the other side.
No bother though, they're great sir.
what the piss, i could've sworn. . . . drugs. . .
He does? I'm not seeing it.
So I've had a couple of suggestions about how to do the attacks (when I try them). For the longsword, I'll probably try it with a less extreme movement, a diagonal cut, and a step forwards with the back leg. That's enough for me to go on, but a video reference of the sort of thing people want would be good, just so that they don't have to correct me after I'm finished as much. (To be clear, I won't animate directly from the reference, so it doesn't need to be from particular angles - just something so that I know what the movement should look like.)
In the mean time I'll probably do a few blocks. I have ideas for these, but specific suggestions and visual references would be appreciated for those as well.
I want to make poses and movements that everyone likes (as long as they don't offend me too much aesthetically). Especially considering that I'm not a fencer or historian or anything, I'll take all the opinions I can get for what the animations should look like.
Edit: Yes, the hands are the right way round for the longsword (I must've made an optical illusion or something). In fact it'd be great if I could figure out how to switch them, because that would mean I knew how to shift the grip of the right hand!
In the mean time I'll probably do a few blocks. I have ideas for these, but specific suggestions and visual references would be appreciated for those as well.
I want to make poses and movements that everyone likes (as long as they don't offend me too much aesthetically
). Especially considering that I'm not a fencer or historian or anything, I'll take all the opinions I can get for what the animations should look like.Edit: Yes, the hands are the right way round for the longsword (I must've made an optical illusion or something). In fact it'd be great if I could figure out how to switch them, because that would mean I knew how to shift the grip of the right hand!
3:10
1:40
I figure that that guard is closest to your current chamber positions.
EDIT: This video is pretty good for a general idea of a compound attack too.
1:40
I figure that that guard is closest to your current chamber positions.
EDIT: This video is pretty good for a general idea of a compound attack too.
Don't tell me I have to learn a real technique!
I think I can handle something resembling that. One question with all of the combat animations is how formal or "correct" we want them to look. I guess techniques would look a bit rougher in a duel than in training, and rougher still on a battlefield. That's partly why some of my ready positions aren't quite perfect fencing guards, they just have the essential, practically important features in common (I hope).
Also, something to consider about the actual cuts is the armour of the opponent. If I'm understanding it right, the technique in those videos seems designed for unarmoured duelling (push the blade to the enemy, then drag it across him), and I guess it wouldn't work so well against even cloth or leather armour. And I guess the extra defensiveness of that technique would be less necessary if you were armoured yourself as well.
Also also, two-handed animations have to work for axes and hammers as well as swords (eek). I'll probably just do it as if with a sword anyway, but that's an issue to keep in mind. Giving axes/hammers polearm animations would be an easy way to solve that problem I think. Arguably, swords should have two distinct categories already, setting them apart from the other one- and two-handed weapons. Axe or mace or hammer fighting is not really like sword fighting.
Anyway, I'll probably do a block position or two first, then move on to a diagonal longsword cut with a step. I guess all of this is now technically outside the topic of the thread... maybe I'll re-title it.
I think I can handle something resembling that. One question with all of the combat animations is how formal or "correct" we want them to look. I guess techniques would look a bit rougher in a duel than in training, and rougher still on a battlefield. That's partly why some of my ready positions aren't quite perfect fencing guards, they just have the essential, practically important features in common (I hope).
Also, something to consider about the actual cuts is the armour of the opponent. If I'm understanding it right, the technique in those videos seems designed for unarmoured duelling (push the blade to the enemy, then drag it across him), and I guess it wouldn't work so well against even cloth or leather armour. And I guess the extra defensiveness of that technique would be less necessary if you were armoured yourself as well.
Also also, two-handed animations have to work for axes and hammers as well as swords (eek). I'll probably just do it as if with a sword anyway, but that's an issue to keep in mind. Giving axes/hammers polearm animations would be an easy way to solve that problem I think. Arguably, swords should have two distinct categories already, setting them apart from the other one- and two-handed weapons. Axe or mace or hammer fighting is not really like sword fighting.
Anyway, I'll probably do a block position or two first, then move on to a diagonal longsword cut with a step. I guess all of this is now technically outside the topic of the thread... maybe I'll re-title it.
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