Siege Defense

[Kardiophylax]

Should I try and make the Feron and Blighted Plague  charge out and attack when they are being sieged?  The Feron have some limited ranged weaponry, but the Blighted Plague lack anything.  I'm thinking both of these factions might be better off charging out of their castle when they are under siege, rather then sitting their waiting to get picked off up top.  What do you guys think?

 

[Khandrak]

For the BP yeah, definitely. For the Feron, I don't know really since I don't have much experience with fighting them, but it seems like it would be a good idea for them as well. I think the hardest faction to siege is the planelords. They have a buttload of archers ripping apart your army as you try to come up the ladder, and then when you get to the top, there is a line of champions swinging at you insanely fast with their staffs. It's quite the experience. I love that fighting different factions is an incredibly varied experience.

 

[Khandrak]

Can you easily set it up so that they change tactics depending on who they are up against? I mean, if the Feron are up against the BP then they wouldn't want to charge, but if they were up against the planelords, then it would be the best option by far.

 

[Kardiophylax]

Can you easily set it up so that they change tactics depending on who they are up against? I mean, if the Feron are up against the BP then they wouldn't want to charge, but if they were up against the planelords, then it would be the best option by far.

I should be able to.  I'll take a look at it and see what I can do.  I'd like to change it before I release this patch to go along with some of the Necromancy improvements I'm working on.

 

[Glaehron Turaanen]

Feron's are actually pretty well suited behind walls or so I found out. Tried a siege at Ferontar last time since I'm the newly elected Planelord marshal, hurray! But yeah, these throwing axes hurt a load and the kill counters on both sides went up pretty much equally. 

 

[NukularPower]

I think so.  Even if the Ferons do have some ranged ability, they are still far more suited to mass melee.  They might even have an advantage that way with the other army stuck right in front of the castle wall.

Of course they could all get butchered coming down the ladder, too.. hard to say without trying it.

 

[Elenmmare]

Not sure about the Feron. They generally have quite a lot of skirmishers, but since I haven't sieged them yet, I can really just assume that they can hold their own in a ranged shoot-out but don't really take the advantage. Seeing as they're meant to fire on the move, I think having them assault from the walls would be best.

 

[Kardiophylax]

It sounds like the Feron should be left alone and maybe a forced charge only for the Blighted Plague is in order.  I wasn't sure how effective the throwing axes were from behind the walls, but it sounds like they are fairly dangerous.  Please keep in mind I CAN force only the infantry to charge, which I think will leave the throwers/archers up on the walls.  I can have them do that if assaulted by say, the Planelords, if you'd like? 


In general the BP need help, so I have been working on some necromancy changes/improvements for them and also a defense mechanism so they don't get slaughtered sitting up on the walls by the Planelords.  Should I allow the Plague to charge any faction that attacks their castle?  Or should they only charge the Planelords?  Or not at all?  Sounds like there is some room for debate here.  I'm just looking to implement what you guys think is best, so let me know!


EDIT: Another option is to modify the sieges so that the area directly around the ladder opening has more protection from enemy fire.  Basically add some sort of gatehouse type enclosure around it so only the infantry standing in the doorway are vulnerable to fire.


Which option do you think offers both the best play experience for all the factions involved (considering Planelords have heavy archery and Plague have none), the correct amount of challenge, and fits in with the faction themes?  We have a lot of options available to us, but I could use some guidance on the final decision.  I don't think seeing the Plague and possibly the Feron standing on the walls getting annihilated while the Planelords fire at them (and take no casualties) as is currently the case is working out too well.  Let me know!b

 

[Cookie Eating Huskarl]

It sounds like the Feron should be left alone and maybe a forced charge only for the Blighted Plague is in order.  I wasn't sure how effective the throwing axes were from behind the walls, but it sounds like they are fairly dangerous.  Please keep in mind I CAN force only the infantry to charge, which I think will leave the throwers/archers up on the walls.  I can have them do that if assaulted by say, the Planelords, if you'd like? 


In general the BP need help, so I have been working on some necromancy changes/improvements for them and also a defense mechanism so they don't get slaughtered sitting up on the walls by the Planelords.  Should I allow the Plague to charge any faction that attacks their castle?  Or should they only charge the Planelords?  Or not at all?  Sounds like there is some room for debate here.  I'm just looking to implement what you guys think is best, so let me know!

My word, is all, not only planelords have good archers. Asaleth archers can kill a lot too. Plus, with a barrage of shields coming down the stairs, i doubt they would be easily wiped out by range attacks when coming down the stairs, but now only one thing remains, what about siege tower situations. They are still sitting ducks in that situation

 

[Kardiophylax]

My word, is all, not only planelords have good archers. Asaleth archers can kill a lot too. Plus, with a barrage of shields coming down the stairs, i doubt they would be easily wiped out by range attacks when coming down the stairs, but now only one thing remains, what about siege tower situations. They are still sitting ducks in that situation

Well, there are a couple ways around that issue.  See my notes above about a more enclosed area around the ladder opening.  Another is to move them completely away from the walls on siege tower maps, so they don't stand where they can get hit.

A third option that I've been toying with is in those type of situations, opening the gates on the castle so that they defenders can flood out from the gates and attack the attackers.  I've already gotten the gates to be able to disappear, it's a matter now of getting them to go through the door.  In my testing they ran by the open door and used the ladder.    I think it might be an AI mesh issue in the scene though.  If I can get it working, it would resolve your situation above.


The question still remains though.  In what faction vs faction matchups should the default behavior be changed?  The Plague I am in favor of having always charge since otherwise they have no defense (other then shields).  If I can open the gates for them to flood out, all the better.  The Feron are a trickier situation.  They have some ranged but rely heavily on infantry too.  As stated above, it is possible to charge only the infantry, but perhaps it would make it too difficult to siege them? 

 

[NukularPower]

honestly I'm fine with any advantage the 2 factions that are at war with everyone can get.

 

[Khandrak]

honestly I'm fine with any advantage the 2 factions that are at war with everyone can get.

Agreed. They both have it hard enough as is

 

[Troll]

honestly I'm fine with any advantage the 2 factions that are at war with everyone can get.

Agreed. They both have it hard enough as is

Yep, in my game, Illoriaon has soon driven Blighted Plague from its lands nearly without my help.

 

[Kardiophylax]

Eh, this is not going well so far....  Some of the scenes have ladders up to walls and the inside defenders can't use these ladders to go down and attack (since they can't jump up onto the ledge to use them). 

I'm going to look into possibly modifying some of the castles to provide more cover from enemy fire.  None of the other solutions are going to be quick to implement and I don't want to spend a ton of time on this.  Down the road I would like to implement more with the castle gates, but that will require a significant time investment including mission editing, entry point editing, and other changes. 

I am currently reviewing options and thinking which can be effective, fun, and implemented fairly quickly.

 

[MarcusValerius]

For the BP is there a way to force spawn/add an extra 100 or so of the revived corpses to just absorb arrows against arrow heavy factions?

RP aspect, the necromancer guarding the castle/town sees the immediate need, and rounds up beggars/peasants to be converted into expendable troops to sit on the wall absorbing damage holding back his real troops for when they charge the wall.

This might not help however, as I seem to remember there being unlimited ammo for the npcs in sieges. (at least from the defenders standpoint, never actually checked with the attackers)

 

[Kardiophylax]

For the BP is there a way to force spawn/add an extra 100 or so of the revived corpses to just absorb arrows against arrow heavy factions?

RP aspect, the necromancer guarding the castle/town sees the immediate need, and rounds up beggars/peasants to be converted into expendable troops to sit on the wall absorbing damage holding back his real troops for when they charge the wall.

This might not help however, as I seem to remember there being unlimited ammo for the npcs in sieges. (at least from the defenders standpoint, never actually checked with the attackers)

Checked the code, only the defender gets ammo refills.  I am considering having the Plague move back away from the walls further into the castles.  This way the attacker has to climb the ladder to fight them.

The Feron, since they have some ranged weapons, I may try to just move the infantry only troops away from the wall. 

 

[MarcusValerius]

For the BP is there a way to force spawn/add an extra 100 or so of the revived corpses to just absorb arrows against arrow heavy factions?

RP aspect, the necromancer guarding the castle/town sees the immediate need, and rounds up beggars/peasants to be converted into expendable troops to sit on the wall absorbing damage holding back his real troops for when they charge the wall.

This might not help however, as I seem to remember there being unlimited ammo for the npcs in sieges. (at least from the defenders standpoint, never actually checked with the attackers)

Checked the code, only the defender gets ammo refills.  I am considering having the Plague move back away from the walls further into the castles.  This way the attacker has to climb the ladder to fight them.

The Feron, since they have some ranged weapons, I may try to just move the infantry only troops away from the wall. 

Will that work with the majority of the scenes? There are some I sieged recently that don't have much in the way of area beyond the ladder wall.

Edit: The reasons I'm suggesting other options than charging/hiding is I can't see the BP being able to pull off a charge/hide tactic against the kind of numbers that usually occur with the large war parties. Planelords could hold a castle against 600 with 100 archers and 10 infantry Edit 2: (to be more clear) stationed at the ladder (end edit), BP need equal numbers in most cases (for a stand up fight.)

 

[Kardiophylax]

I can consider adding more troops to The Blighted Plague when they are defending against a siege.  That would probably be one of the easiest solutions as long as they were removed after the siege.  The only issue is some of the "temporary" troops killed would probably then be converted to undead again during the necromancy phase of the battle, if the Plague won. 

What does everyone else think of adding some weak revived corpses to defending Blighted Plague armies?  Is that a viable solution for you guys?  Is 50 enough?  100?  Should they only get extra troops vs. Planelords or versus other factions as well? 



I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how to best help them in this siege situation.  Meanwhile, I've been finishing up the necromancy scripts.  If you think of any further changes or have recommendations for how many and against who, I'm all ears... err... eyes .

 

[Khandrak]

I'm not all the way back yet, so it's taking me a while to think and try to type this out. I'll just draw a picture for you.

Arrows are attacking. This way the melee is out of harms way from enemy archers but they still maintain the choke point somewhat, while they force the enemy to storm the castle if they want to win. Also they are still between the enemy and their own ranged units.

I don't know how it would work with all castles.

Edit: Sorry if I'm not entirely coherent.

 

[Kardiophylax]

I'm not all the way back yet, so it's taking me a while to think and try to type this out. I'll just draw a picture for you.

Arrows are attacking. This way the melee is out of harms way from enemy archers but they still maintain the choke point somewhat, while they force the enemy to storm the castle if they want to win. Also they are still between the enemy and their own ranged units.

I don't know how it would work with all castles.

Edit: Sorry if I'm not entirely coherent.

Hehe, love the artwork. 


Seriously, that's a good idea.  The only issue is getting it setup like that and that the layout of all castles is unique and many would not fit that arrangement without some hefty scene modifications.  I could probably figure it out and do it, but I kind of wanted to get this patch out to people in short order since the Feron quests are so broken right now, amongst the other issues.

It seems like I may need to put off the siege changes until post patch.  Ideally, Khandrak is right, the infantry shouldn't be dumb enough to stand where they can get hit by arrows, not unless they were arc'd in from above (which I don't think the AI does).  This should be true of all factions infantry really.  I know it hurts the arrow factions to do this, but really they shouldn't be as effective attacking in a siege when the enemy has cover. 

Plus I still need to finish testing these necromancy changes to make sure they work as intended.