Shield Skill??

[DerHerbst]

Hey sorry if this question has been asked 1,000 times.  The last time I played this mod shield skill was purposefully set at zero.  Now it seems that shield skill can be upgraded.  So I was wondering if shield skill has been restored to native settings or if I should continue to ignore this skill when upgrading?

Thanks!

 

[Warchild]

It has been restored.

In fact that was a bug in skills.txt but it is no more.

 

[bowman90]

It has been restored.

In fact that was a bug in skills.txt but it is no more.

Really? I thought it was intentional, because the shield skill just sucks.

Yeah it sucks and should be removed. It just doesn't work as its supposed to. Shield skill shoudn't determine wheter your shield is made of cardboard or hard wood. It should only act as your ability to block ranged attacks(and melee of course) and how fast you raise you shield.

Since there isn't a way to remove damage resistance from skill, or is there? I think this mod should just add more hp to shields and remove the shield skill altogether.

I know this can be accoplished by Tweak MB and Morghs Tools, but I'd wish this feature would be added to next version.

 

[DerHerbst]

Yeah In thought that it was intentional too.  I thought that shield skill was set to zero to make archers more powerful and realistic.  Because when shield skill is enabled, it basically prevents any arrows or javelins from passing by the shield via the "invisible force field".  When shield skill is set to zero then arrows aimed at the head or feet are much more likely to strike home, thus making the game more realistic.

That's the way I remember it but I could def. be wrong since I haven't been playing this mod until recently.

 

[Warchild]

Since there isn't a way to remove damage resistance from skill, or is there?

I don't know how to alter a skill effect but it should be possible since it was done in Brytenwalda. Maybe a bit tricky thing though.

Now that you say that, I know either if it was intentionnal or not at the beginning, but if this is done :

I think this mod should just add more hp to shields and remove the shield skill altogether.

you can say goodbye to this :

It should only act as your ability to block ranged attacks(and melee of course) and how fast you raise you shield.

since it actually does too. And I'd rather keep the ability to improve my shield raising's speed. Otherwise an experienced warrior would have the same parrying speed as a peasant with the same shield.

 

[bowman90]

Yeah In thought that it was intentional too.  I thought that shield skill was set to zero to make archers more powerful and realistic.  Because when shield skill is enabled, it basically prevents any arrows or javelins from passing by the shield via the "invisible force field".  When shield skill is set to zero then arrows aimed at the head or feet are much more likely to strike home, thus making the game more realistic.

That's the way I remember it but I could def. be wrong since I haven't been playing this mod until recently.

Yeah it's bull**** that your block skill automaticly is blocking arrows and whatever flyes your way, because you can block without the skill too, by using your own ability to move your shield.

 

[bowman90]

I don't know how to alter a skill effect but it should be possible since it was done in Brytenwalda. Maybe a bit tricky thing though.

What? I thought it wasn't only the skill level cap was placed at 4 and skill difficulty was added on shields.

since it actually does too. And I'd rather keep the ability to improve my shield raising's speed. Otherwise an experienced warrior would have the same parrying speed as a peasant with the same shield.

Yeah but now the skill basicly determines your shields durability (which is stupid) and their amazing ability to block ranged attacks to their ankles and head. And since this mod already has such high armor rating on helmets, making head shots easier shouldn't matter.

Trust me it's worth modifying, it's the only way I have managed to play this module for maybe hundreds of hours. 

 

[Warchild]

What? I thought it wasn't only the skill level cap was placed at 4 and skill difficulty was added on shields.

They also replaced Horse archery with something else and did the same to two other skills if I remember correctly. Now you have the ability to be a good minstrel or not and to feed more or less your army from the ressources around you while sieging a settlement (Foraging skill).


And I agree with you, bots are amazing blockers. Sometimes I have a guy eating the ground in front of me and he block my blow in the back. But that won't save him.
With a bow I nearly always break a shield in 1 shot and since as you said headshots are often useless...
I don't think it's that much annoying.

 

[Baguette Eater]

The ''force field'' is a way to represent how you character does the finer movement of his shield to block arrows, said movements just can't be seen.

 

[Warchild]

Yes that's how I get it, but sometimes they block shots from the side in such positions they wouldn't have seen you shooting. And prescience is supernatural.

 

[bowman90]

With a bow I nearly always break a shield in 1 shot

Yep.. Ain't that ridiculous. Arrows don't destroy shields. Multiple arrows can maybe crack a shield but to destroy like that,now that's just silly.

The ''force field'' is a way to represent how you character does the finer movement of his shield to block arrows, said movements just can't be seen.

Yes yes the player can block just by moving shield up and down, but the AI can't analyze incoming projectiles so the automatic force field is supposed to represent that blocking ability.

They also replaced Horse archery with something else and did the same to two other skills if I remember correctly. Now you have the ability to be a good minstrel or not and to feed more or less your army from the ressources around you while sieging a settlement (Foraging skill).

No not replaced they just put zero points to horse archery (With TweakMB you can remove and add caps to skills) and added a new skills with effects. In fact foragin should be in this mod. 

 

[DrTomas]

Do this - do that.

While from the player side of things, lower shield skill is more fun to play with shield skill set at 0 overpowers the range troops. Even knights get massacred in sieges. It might be possible to do a compromise by nerfing the range troops and removing the skill, but I don't have the time nor willpower to go trough that trial and error.

 

[bowman90]

Do this - do that.

While from the player side of things, lower shield skill is more fun to play with shield skill set at 0 overpowers the range troops. Even knights get massacred in sieges. It might be possible to do a compromise by nerfing the range troops and removing the skill, but I don't have the time nor willpower to go trough that trial and error.

Understandable.. It's a pain in the ass to modify all 150 of them shield hp and damage resistances. But overpowering ranged troops maybe yes/no.

Even a knight dies if you shoot them with a crossbow it only goes to show why crossbows were called knight killers. The pope actually outlawed them for their overpowering stoppping power in 1097 ad and some next pope allowed them to be used against infidels (imagine that).

I think even adding more hp like x5 to the shields helps a lot. It's a 15 or 25 min job so its fairly easy... 

 

[Warchild]

Yep.. Ain't that ridiculous. Arrows don't destroy shields. Multiple arrows can maybe crack a shield but to destroy like that,now that's just silly.

I shoot anvils bound to arrows.

No not replaced they just put zero points to horse archery (With TweakMB you can remove and add caps to skills) and added a new skills with effects. In fact foragin should be in this mod. 

Then I guess you should be able to put the shield skill to 0 and to make your own one. Once done it should be quickly thrown in each new revision.

 

[oroboros]

With a bow I nearly always break a shield in 1 shot

Yep.. Ain't that ridiculous. Arrows don't destroy shields. Multiple arrows can maybe crack a shield but to destroy like that,now that's just silly.

The ''force field'' is a way to represent how you character does the finer movement of his shield to block arrows, said movements just can't be seen.

Yes yes the player can block just by moving shield up and down, but the AI can't analyze incoming projectiles so the automatic force field is supposed to represent that blocking ability.

They also replaced Horse archery with something else and did the same to two other skills if I remember correctly. Now you have the ability to be a good minstrel or not and to feed more or less your army from the ressources around you while sieging a settlement (Foraging skill).

No not replaced they just put zero points to horse archery (With TweakMB you can remove and add caps to skills) and added a new skills with effects. In fact foragin should be in this mod. 

Oh well, foraging is in the mod - at this time foraging for armies was called looting 

And to reduce any skill to 0 you just have to change 1 number in the skills.txt, where it says 'skill{bla_bla_bla} 0 10...' just change it to 'skill{bla_bla_bla} 0 0...' and you have no shield skill for instance.

 

[bowman90]

Oh well, foraging is in the mod - at this time foraging for armies was called looting 

Looting and foraging are two different things. I find the ability to find and conserve food is a lot different than burning and looting down villages. But I suppose you could look it that way if they are infidel villages. 

And to reduce any skill to 0 you just have to change 1 number in the skills.txt, where it says 'skill{bla_bla_bla} 0 10...' just change it to 'skill{bla_bla_bla} 0 0...' and you have no shield skill for instance.

Easier done with TweakMB that tool has explanations on average players on how it works too without looking at all the 0 0 0 0's.

Then I guess you should be able to put the shield skill to 0 and to make your own one. Once done it should be quickly thrown in each new revision

Yes of course and I have. Each time a new version comes up (or I muck something up) I'll do it and modify shields ,dam resistances, item values, weapon damages, weapon speeds, fief incomes etc.. So it ain't a problem to fix for me. I just put up a request by replying here and to see if there are others who find shield skill to be odd and stupid. It should't be about just sbout your shields durability and ability block a barrage of arrows at once from 180 degree angle.

What I'm saying here is Removing shield skill and putting more hp on them puts everyone on same level. It doesn't overpower archers because they usually hit shields anyway unless firing from elevated position (or being Welsh). Without automatic blocking archers can shoot you to your side and angles.

AI with shields can take a lot of arrows (if modified shield hp) blocking nearly every arrow even without skill just because their shield covers most of their body not because of invisble force fields.

 

[oroboros]

Looting and foraging are two different things. I find the ability to find and conserve food is a lot different than burning and looting down villages. But I suppose you could look it that way if they are infidel villages. 

Yes I know, just wanted to be funny. But in terms of historical accuracy, think about it twice - which army would live off the land, i.e. hunting, conserving food, etc.? Or was it more the case that they went pillaging and plundering around and called that 'living off the land' during the Middle Ages and during almost every war before that and since then. And they did not only pillage, steal and plunder enemy settlements, this is a wrong conception of the term 'living off the land'. You cannot provide enough food by hunting etc. in the short amount of time for a whole army which is constantly on the move. But I have to aqree that it would be a very nice pastime for the player... oh how I loved to hunt in Brytenwalda...

If you do so many changes for every revision, that's some hours of work, why don't you just copy the essential parts of the diverse txt-files from the older revision into the newer ones? For instance copy everything concerning shield from the old itemkinds1 and paste it into the new itemkind1, that's about 2 minutes and there you have your 150 shields. The same for helmets, horses, companions or whatever. You just have to be careful as to not add/delete some spaces or something or if there's new items which might conflict with the old ones, etc. As a backup I just copy the original to some other folder, in case something goes wrong I will simply swap the changed file with the original.

May I ask, how did you tweak the shields, for instance the original heavy heater has something ~60 hit points, and a resistance of 67, what's the values of your new heavy heater? Another thing which might help with shields if the shield skill is abolished, could be to increase the radius of the shield's defense. So, in the above example the shield has something like 75x59 shield radius, maybe this could be increased to 90x70 or something, in order to compensate for the missing 'invisible force field' which comes together with the shield skill.

 

[bowman90]

If you do so many changes for every revision, that's some hours of work, why don't you just copy the essential parts of the diverse txt-files from the older revision into the newer ones? For instance copy everything concerning shield from the old itemkinds1 and paste it into the new itemkind1, that's about 2 minutes and there you have your 150 shields. The same for helmets, horses, companions or whatever. You just have to be careful as to not add/delete some spaces or something or if there's new items which might conflict with the old ones, etc. As a backup I just copy the original to some other folder, in case something goes wrong I will simply swap the changed file with the original.

I do that too, but like you said too many changes new items and meshes things get complicated. And I get pissed and delete back ups and promise myself I never play this module again, but since it's the best around I tweak it again (this is like the third time).

Imagine editing almost every troop and item in the game have all gone, because my last version got corrupted somehow... 

May I ask, how did you tweak the shields, for instance the original heavy heater has something ~60 hit points, and a resistance of 67, what's the values of your new heavy heater? Another thing which might help with shields if the shield skill is abolished, could be to increase the radius of the shield's defense. So, in the above example the shield has something like 75x59 shield radius, maybe this could be increased to 90x70 or something, in order to compensate for the missing 'invisible force field' which comes together with the shield skill.

Five times hp and slight decrease in resistance. You know that's not a bad idea the blocking radius would increase just so you can imagine them over the shield edge shots as valid blocking. 

Yes I know, just wanted to be funny. But in terms of historical accuracy, think about it twice - which army would live off the land, i.e. hunting, conserving food, etc.? Or was it more the case that they went pillaging and plundering around and called that 'living off the land' during the Middle Ages and during almost every war before that and since then. And they did not only pillage, steal and plunder enemy settlements, this is a wrong conception of the term 'living off the land'. You cannot provide enough food by hunting etc. in the short amount of time for a whole army which is constantly on the move. But I have to agree that it would be a very nice pastime for the player... oh how I loved to hunt in Brytenwalda...

Yeah I know man and you're right it seems too unbelievable feed the entire army instead of a warband. Burning and pillaging is more historically accurate and more rewarding.

 

[oroboros]

May I ask, how did you tweak the shields, for instance the original heavy heater has something ~60 hit points, and a resistance of 67, what's the values of your new heavy heater? Another thing which might help with shields if the shield skill is abolished, could be to increase the radius of the shield's defense. So, in the above example the shield has something like 75x59 shield radius, maybe this could be increased to 90x70 or something, in order to compensate for the missing 'invisible force field' which comes together with the shield skill.

Five times hp and slight decrease in resistance. You know that's not a bad idea the blocking radius would increase just so you can imagine them over the shield edge shots as valid blocking. 

That sounds interesting, I think I gonna try this one out with increased radius and I thought about that maybe the speed of the shield would also have to be increased somewhat as the shield skill not only determines the dmg that is substracted from and shield radius of the shield but also how quick it can be raised in order to block. Maybe something like 5times hp, shield radius increased by 20% and a speed bonus of +5, if reasonable, would work.

 

[bowman90]

May I ask, how did you tweak the shields, for instance the original heavy heater has something ~60 hit points, and a resistance of 67, what's the values of your new heavy heater? Another thing which might help with shields if the shield skill is abolished, could be to increase the radius of the shield's defense. So, in the above example the shield has something like 75x59 shield radius, maybe this could be increased to 90x70 or something, in order to compensate for the missing 'invisible force field' which comes together with the shield skill.

Five times hp and slight decrease in resistance. You know that's not a bad idea the blocking radius would increase just so you can imagine them over the shield edge shots as valid blocking. 

That sounds interesting, I think I gonna try this one out with increased radius and I thought about that maybe the speed of the shield would also have to be increased somewhat as the shield skill not only determines the dmg that is substracted from and shield radius of the shield but also how quick it can be raised in order to block. Maybe something like 5times hp, shield radius increased by 20% and a speed bonus of +5, if reasonable, would work.

Those changes sound like they might work and they can be made pretty easily. Thanks for giving more ideas on the matter.