Serious Occult Meddling Discussion (formerly Yard1's Serious Occult Meddling)

[zeppelin]

1.When lancers are too close to the enemy to hit them with lance, they switch to other weapon. Dehorsed lancers should use other weapon.
2. AFAIK there are no lance infantry, but the script affects only calvary.
3. Only calvary with lances is affected.
4. That was my job when I did the tweak, don't worry
5. It might not work perfectly, but gets the job done. Here is the page of the script - http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,128605.msg3197289.html#msg3197289

Thank you so much for the answers, another question, please, that if I tweak some units that not have lances to have a lance using Morgh's tools, so those units will be affected by the Lancers fix or not ?

 

[Yard1]

They won't, but they will spawn with all melee weapons.

It shouldn't be a problem, though.

 

[noosers]

It just means your typical horsearcher unit won´t be an horse archer unit anymore because the Hero Adventurer will now spawn with a lance, shield, bow and sword. Unless the script checks wether or not a bow is available and keeps the arrows stuffed. In that case your HA will spawn with melee weapons only and become totally useless against cavalry with long, pointy sticks.

 

[Yard1]

That's strange, for me HA still fire their bows.

 

[noosers]

Depends how your tweak/lancer script affects those troopers. It´s mainly horsearchers who have the chance to get a lance. Recalling from memory a few come to my mind:

Hero Adventurers, Adventurers and their female counterparts, D´Shar Windriders, Dervishes, Jatu Raiders and the D´Shar bandits.

In order to comment on that script you´d have to know how it affects the inventory of the various lancers.

 

[zeppelin]

  Oh, so the script also affects HAs who have a lance in inventory !! So maybe we have big problem here coz we dont have enough people to check the effect on each unit type, and many effects that still unknown, and this thread as I see that the devs are not so happy with.
 
  But I remember that some versions of M&B (or PoP??)  have their cavalry with lances switch to swords reasonably, is it PoP3.5 ?

  Please dont be so serious, my honorary noosers, let them play the way they want, you have contributed so much for PoP, and you have played M&B for a long time (I saw your ID first when they have the M&B 0.808 when we even not have that Rhodoks, right?), so please dont be so strict with the youngers, I think if they cannot have any submod so nothing will happen with PoP forum. Sorry for my bad English, this prevent me from doing anything for a long time.

 

[Yard1]

Well, there are two scripts - one that makes the lancers switch, and the one that guarantees that lancers have a weapon to switch to. Also, HA can spawn with lance, bow, arrows and one/two hander, not only with lance, shield, bow and sword. And they won't always spawn with lance, on top of that.

 

[zeppelin]

So my friend, the problem is, IMO, the HAs who spawn with a lance and a bow won't switch because as you said the cavalry will choose to use a lance when they cannot reach the sword range, and they dont have a sword, just a bow and arrows. So HA won't use the bow when mounting horse, just when they are dehorsed or at close quarter that the lance becomes useless and also the bow?

 

[Yard1]

I'm sorry, I should have be more specific, they will switch to any weapon that is not a polearm. Quote from http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,128605.msg3197289.html#msg3197289

[...] the code approximates this by doing two things: 1) it gets the average distance of the 3 closest enemies to the agent (using a native script) and 2) checks the agent's combat state. "Close combat" is here defined as an average distance to three enemies of less than 5 meters and a combat state of hitting, following through, being hit or blocking. If both are met, the agents switch to a non-lance, non-polearm weapon; if not, they switch to/maintain their lance or spear. Hopefully this means that the switch would only occur AFTER the contact of an initial charge, and then will continue to be dynamic throughout the battle.

 

[noosers]

I think you misunderstood my concern.
It´s not about the toggling and switching weapons but how the backup weapons (=melee) are handed out.

There are several troops out there who have a chance or are equipped only with a lance/shield/bow/arrows and no melee weapons. What I was asking is how your "granted melee weapon" affects those. Are they starting fisticuffs? Do they get a random melee weapon? Will they still use their lance? If they get another melee weapon, which item is replaced? The ranged one? The ammo? The lance?

Damn.
0.808? I thought it was 0.89 I joined.

 

[Yard1]

The script uses the unit's item list from troops file. It adds the one hand and two hand weapons if there is one present in the list and if there is room for it in the unit's inventory after it spawned. I believe one hand as higher priority than two hand.

I've added this script because sometimes lancers do spawn with a sword, but sometimes they don't, and that's normal native behaviour. I believed that when unit is mounted and it has a lance in it's item list, it always get it, while other weapons are not guaranteed.

 

[noosers]

Nope. Wether or not a unit gets a sidearm depends on the granted melee weapon entry in the troops.py. Some troops may not have it ticked for various reasons (like HA spawning with lances, shields, bows&arrows or melee weapon, shields, bows&arrows; for versatility) which results in your problem description.

 

[Nikomakkos]

Yard, did you say that the script only adds a sidearm if there is an empty weapon slot? So it doesn't replace any item in an occupied slot ever? That would mean no problems with HAs.

 

[Yard1]

Nope. Wether or not a unit gets a sidearm depends on the granted melee weapon entry in the troops.py. Some troops may not have it ticked for various reasons (like HA spawning with lances, shields, bows&arrows or melee weapon, shields, bows&arrows; for versatility) which results in your problem description.

I'm 100% sure that there is no guarantee weapon type flag in troops.py You can guarantee parts of armor, horse or a ranged weapon, but you can't guarantee that unit will always spawn with a desired type of weapon.

That's why SonnKid wrote that script, after all.

Yard, did you say that the script only adds a sidearm if there is an empty weapon slot? So it doesn't replace any item in an occupied slot ever? That would mean no problems with HAs.

Yes. First the spawning system chooses it's weapons, and then, if there are any empty slots, script adds it's ones.

 

[Nikomakkos]

Seems like that is it then. No problems with HAs and this script until experience shows different.

 

[Yard1]

I recommend to try it out yourself. You can always resolve to a backup, if it doesn't suit your expectations.

 

[Nikomakkos]

I will try it definitely. And I can see how one might misinterpret my last post. What I meant is everything points towards that there won't be any problems with HAs but experience is what provides certainty.

 

[sakpank]

IMO, CKHO is not too hard or too long to wait, It's just boring to wait without something to do except pay and wait patiently. and see if they improve.

It's like a-day-long-per-turn-slot-machine.

May be Yard1 can improve this by adding something like quest that you had to do while they're in training or equipment upgrade.

ex.
- Trainer will ask for money or supply like practice weapon or food every weeks.
- Protect their training camp from enemy lords.
- Searching for example equipment for CKHO to research and copy them.
- Capture enemy soldiers/lords and forced them to train your CKHO.
- Capture enemy soldiers for real human practice object 
- Help training them yourself.
- Ask for friendly Knight Orders to help in training (pay with prices or do some quests).

This way it'll even more harder and longer to own CKHO and don't ruin former mods intention/hard work while we can have even more fun.

Pardon my English, That's the best I can do.

 

[Mad Vader]

Yeah, he should write quests, good idea. 

 

[Yard1]

Me, writing something? LOL. All I did is copy paste few OSP scripts and used Morgs editor. Don't even think I'm capable of something like this.

Very funny, MV. Very funny.