Seljuq Sultanate of Rum

[Korinov]

As far as I'm concerned, rural areas in Anatolia under Byzantine rule suffered depopulation due to significative migration to the cities (for several reasons), which eased the arrival of turkish population later. That said, the mere notion of millions or hundreds of thousands people moving around from one area to another in such a (relatively) short spell of time doesn't sound very convincing to me.

 

[NikeBG]

Tell me you're only changing the unit names 

Depends on how we do the Byzantines - Bulgaria, especially in our period, is much too linked with Byzantium (heck, some historians even call it "the Slavic Byzantium"), so they go hand in hand in many aspects. Though if we do make a change, I guess it could be adjusted to just name-changes etc - f.e. the proniar ("previously" first tiers noble) could replace the oklopnik ("previously" last tier professional cavalry), while the noble tree could either be removed, shortened or I'd have to come up with more generic names for the nobility. Though, of course, I still do think the current version is better, since although there are differences between the pronoiars and the Western knights (most obvious of which is that pronoiars don't inherit their land (yet) and swear allegiance only to the emperor), they are the closest thing we have to them in the Byzantine world and, thus, I think it wouldn't be wrong to have them as first tiers in a noble tree. Otherwise, we'd have to have only two unit trees in this area - levies and professionals.

The point if having a "noble troop tree" and other troop trees is that it's absurd, to me, that you can turn a commoner sergeant or a pikeman burgher into a noble squire or, even worse, an upwright knight.

This is one potential "problem" we're facing now that we enter the Eastern lands - in Byzantium (and even Bulgaria only 7-8 decades from 1200) we have cases of commoners even reaching the imperial throne, not to mention lower positions, especially military ones. The example with the eunuchs you gave is also a good one. To some degree that is one of the reasons I included the proniars in the noble tree - the proniar, while not being a part of the actual nobility yet, is IMO closer to it than to the commoners (incl. the professional warriors) and it's probably not unthinkable that he might rise to the ranks of the lower (or even greater, if he's in good enough relations with the court) nobility itself.

But what of the Roman Empire? There is no boundless aristocracy. Its social structure was pretty permeable, and although there existed the concept of nobilty, in the Roman sense (the Patriciate), it was a backwards concept applied for snobbishness and personal grandeur. The most powerful men in the empire were not patricians, hypathoi or clarissimi. They were just soldiers, generals, many of Armenian descent, reaching great functions and offices because of promotion, patronage, family contacts or just plain merits.

With this, however, I would rather disagree. The most powerful men in the empire were often generals (though not necessarily), yes, but they were mostly such because they belonged to the megadynatoi (I'm referring mostly to the generals who gathered their own armies and at times even tried (and succeeded) in gaining the throne), the great noble families, especially those of Asia Minor (though by 1200 those were obviously not in their glory-days).
So there certainly was an actual nobility, especially the high one, with the difference that high posts weren't limited only to it. In some cases it was even preferred to have "less noble" people for some positions, who would thus be (supposedly) more loyal to the emperor for having raised them to those positions (the example comes to my mind of the Bulgarian akritas Boril and German who were raised by Nikephoros Botaniates to the ranks of protoproedros, etnarch (commander of the foreign forces, incl. the Varangians), primikerios etc. and were his closest and most loyal people).

It seems, by the way, that the Senate in Constantinople was still working as a city hall AND as a consultive assembly for the Emperor as late as in the XIIIth Century. I read a couple of sources speaking of the Senate assembling in the wake of the Third Crusade.

As far as I remember, the Senate of Constantinople lasted until 1453 itself, but (with rare exceptions) had little actual power over anything. Somewhat similar to the dimas (you know, those sports teams (greens, blues, reds and whites) who led the Nika riots in the times of Justinian), who also kept existing for some time after they lost any actual significance, I guess.

 

[Inanch-Bilge]

There was a significiant Christian population in central anatolia too, but immigrant waves mostly piled up in central anatolia, and many of the previous residents also fled to coastal regions, thats why christians of central anatolia were minority.

About the city names, generally old Byzantines names used with changes in spelling, many names changed but its not clear if they're changed in Seljuk era or later beylik era.(the settlement names I gave in my previous posts are used)

Turkomans started to populate western anatolia in the middle period of 13thy century(they were launching raids before), the Turkomans who fled from the Mongols piled up in the Byzantine borders and rapidly captured the Byzantine lands in western anatolia. for example, by the 16th century population of the province of Mentese(south western anatolia) was around 170-180 000 and around 70-80 000 of it was nomadic.

Edit: Are you guys planning to add Seljuks in next release ? 

 

[Korinov]

Edit: Are you guys planning to add Seljuks in next release ? 

No. Next release will include Arber, Bulgaria and (I hope) Poland. I can't really offer a reliable schedule about when will the Seljuks (or the Byzantines) be included.

 

[Inanch-Bilge]

I see what about a Seljuk companion then ?

 

[Komnenos]

I am not really sure about the sources right now but there were accounts of Anatolian natives being relocated in Balkan lands by the Byzantine rule which also caused the population decrease in Anatolia. This was probably done to prevent the natives to convert to Islam and join the Turkish manpower pool.

That would be interesting indeed. The only cases of people from Asia Minor being relocated to the Balkans, that I can remember, are the Armenian Paulicians being relocated to Thrace (after Basil I conqered Tafriqa in 872) and, eventually, some Turks being relocated to modern Macedonia to form the Vardariotai (though it's debatable if those were only Turks or also Magyars, Pechenegs etc). Of course, on the other hand, Balkaners have also been relocated to Asia Minor several times - first case I can remember is from the end of the 7th century (I think it was Justinian II who captured a large number of free Slavs from Macedonia and settled them in Asia Minor, there's also the somewhat famous episode with the Slavic troops there joining the Arabs etc), after 1018 many Bulgarians were also sent to Armenia etc. etc. So, both regions were somewhat similar melting pots, which is why the situations there are rather messy, as previously said.

I've heard and read about turkic yuruks (shepherd nomads) that had been relocated in Eastern Moesia, which is today the Deli Orman region in Bulgaria, and they are still there. Chronologically this event fits the sources of Mefaba...Similar melting pots, you said...

Still, I doubt the absolute power and authority of the Seljuk Sultan of Rum in that period. How would you explain the diverse clan seniority, called Anatolian beyliks founded after the Battle of Manzikert and the Battle of Köse Dağ? Kilij was just one of them and still needed Danishmend to help him against the First Crusade. Chaka bey - a pirate off smyrniote coast, who was stopped well before making far too easy his Banu Ghaniya there. Just turkic commanders, sons of a Nomad, who spreads them around and lets them rule. Till one of them establishes A Ottoman empire...

 

[Inanch-Bilge]

Some settled peacefully some settled by force in the Balkans by Ottomans, the ones who forced to settle were generally defeated rebels.

in some times Seljuks had limited authority but not in the 1200.

 

[MihailoSRB]

I see what about a Seljuk companion then ?

There is a companion Koroglu currently in the mod.
While not technically Seljuq, he is from around those parts of the world.

 

[Druzhina]

Paintings of Turkmen Nomads by Siyah Qalem

A collection of paintings of Turkmen Nomads from manuscript Hazine 2153 of the Sarai Albums by the Siyah Qalem (Black Pen) school

Larger images:

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f8b Nomad camp
f14a The stubborn donkey
f38a Nomads leading an ox
f38b Group of three figures
f54a Fragment from a Caravan Scene
f55a Wandering Dervishes
f65a Two people by candlelight
f73b Untying a rope
f84a Nomad grazing his horse
f105a A falling Stone
f118b A nomad leading his horse by the reins
f152a Performance
A donkey defecating

A Turkoman Tribesman in Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096-1291 by Ian Heath, based on Siyah Qalem.

MIRROR SITE
A collection of paintings of Turkmen Nomads from manuscript Hazine 2153 of the Sarai Albums by the Siyah Qalem (Black Pen) school and a Turkoman Tribesman in Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096-1291 by Ian Heath, based on Siyah Qalem.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

 

[MihailoSRB]

Just bumping this thread - we'll need it for the future.

 

[Druzhina]

The main primary documentary source for Seljuk dress and armour of the 13th century is the Romance of Varqa and Gulshah

Plus large pictures of:

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19: Gulshâh fleeing the palace of Rabî; a rabbit among the feet of the horse; to the right the door and the walls of a palace
20: The contemplation of Gulshâh, the fight between Warqah  and Rabî, a rabbit between the feet of Rabî s horse; behind him, a bird; behind Gulshâh three birds at various positions
22: Gulshâh uncovers her face; facing Rabî  on the horse, behind him Warqah, half naked and bound.
23: Gulshâh kills Rabî  by driving the lance in his chest; four horsemen and Warqah bound; inscription: 'Gulshâh kills Ibn Adnân, saves Warqah'
37: The exit of the armed Warqah from the walls of Yemen, flanked by two riders.
38: Warqah to battle; with him, a standard-bearer, behind him, two figures on camels beating large drums; in front of him, two riders and foot-soldier; inscription: 'The army of Warqah scatters that of Bahrain and of Adan.'
39: Struggle of Warqah with a warrior of Adan.

A page of small coloured Varka ve Gulsah images from the Turkish Cultural Foundation

MIRROR SITE
The Romance of Varqa and Gulshah

Druzhina
Seljuk Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

 

[Druzhina]

Other Information about Seljuks:

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Saljuq Clothing by Elsie H. Peck
Seljuk Soldiers on a Bas Relief
Seljuk Cavalry on a Bas Relief
Horseman of Raqqa (Faris al-Raqqa)
Seljuk horsemen on a Minai Ware Bowl, 13th century
Seljuk Bowl with Astronomical and Royal Figures, C12-13
Bowl with Paired Riders, C12-13
Seljuq Horseman on a Bowl, 12-13C
Elephant on a Seljuq Bowl, Kashan, 1218
Saljuq Bowl, Kashan, C12-13
Seljuk Horsemen on a Minai Ware Jug, 12-13C
Horseman & Castle on a Kashan Minai Bowl, 12-13C
Seljuk Lampas Robe
Another Seljuk Lampas Robe
Seljuk Horsemen on a Minai Bowl, Kashan, c1200
Saljuq Turkish Elite Cavalry on a Glazed Tile
Two Seljuk Painted Bowls, 13-14C
Seljuk Horsemen on a Wall Painting
Seljuk Stucco Figures
Minai bowl showing Bahram Gur and Azade on a camel
The Seljuqs of Rum by Steven Lowe and Martin Baker
Seljuk Bowl with Rider, 13th century
Seljuk Footed Bowl, c1200
12th Century Glass Medallion
Kitab al-Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by Pseudo-Gallen, 1198CE
Kitab al-Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by Pseudo-Gallen, mid 13th century
Book of Fixed Stars by al Sufi, Ms Marsh 14, 1009-10, Ms Sotheby's - Lot 34, 1125, Ms Fatih 3422, 1125, Ms Ahmet III 3493, 1130-31, Ms Ross.1033, 1224, Ms Ayasofya 2595, 1249-50, Ms Or.5323, c1270 & Ms Dar al-Kutub miqat 390, 1224.
Kitab al-Aghani (Book of Songs)
Battle plate, early 13th century
Saljuq Dish with horseman, late 12th to early 13th century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with a ruler and attendants, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with a ruler and attendants, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with mounted archer, 12th-13 century
Seljuk beaker, Kashan, Iran, late 12th century
Seljuk beaker, late 12th century
Seljuk Candlestick, Anatolia, mid 13th century
Seljuk bowl fragment, late 12th-early 13th century
Saljuq star with Rustam and the Dragon, late 12th century
Ceramics showing Saljuq Costume
A 13th century Kelile ve Dimne
Seljuk Bowl with Rider, 12th to 13th century
Seljuk horseman wearing fur lined hat
Automaton in Saljuq Costume, 1206
Minai plate by Abu Zaid al-Kashani, 1187AD
Horseman on Seljuk Bowl from Rayy, 12th to 13th centuries
Seljuq Steel Mirror with Mounted Hunter
Plaster Relief of Seljuq Cavalry Fighting a Dragon
Seljuq Bowl with Horseman, 12th to 13th centuries
Seljuq Bowl with Turkish horseman, 12th-13th centuries
An Arabic Translation of the Materia Medica of Dioscorides by 'Abdullah ibn al-Fadl
Machine Pouring Wine, after al-Jazari, c. 1315AD
Seljuk Bowl with Turkish Couple, c. 1200AD
Scylitzes Chronicle, f234v  A Battle Between Byzantines and Seljuks.

Drawings of & notes by Ian Heath - based on the above:
Turkish cavalry
Seljuk Heavy Cavalryman
Seljuk Infantrymen
Rumi Firenk Heavy Cavalryman
Saracen Standards

Druzhina
Illustrations of Soldiers

 

[corwin_of_amber]

Here’s some information on the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum I compiled from Wikipedia and various other internet sources:

Seljuk Sultanate of Rum
Religion: Sunni Muslim
Capital: Konya (Though Konya was indeed the capital of the Seljuk Sultanate for the most part during 1097 to 1243, it was actually under crusader control for fifteen years from 1190-1205 after being captured by Fredrick Barbarossa. Ergo, in 1200 Konya was Not under Seljuk control. If total historical accuracy is required then Konya must be represented under Frankish crusader control, though its city garrison would be very small.) (Issue resolved, see three posts below) (Konya, formerly known as Iconium, is surrounded by a fertile plains and is very rich in agricultural resources.)
Important works: 1- Caravanserai (facilitated flow of goods from Iran to ports in Central Asia) 2- Medrasas (schools and theological seminaries) 3- Mosques 4- Medical centers.
Trade Agreement: with Genoa

Sultan: Suleiman II (1196-1204) (aka Rukn ad-Din Suleiman Shah) (Historical notes: Successful in battles against the Byzantines but routed by Georgians in 1203)

Claimant: Kaykhusraw I (aka, Ghiyath ad-Din Kaykhusraw) (Place of exile: Constantinople) (Backstory: Kaykhusraw I is the younger brother of Suleiman II. Upon the death of their father Kilij Arslan II, Kaykhusraw I, who was promised the sultanate by his father, fought with his brothers for control of the Sultanate and succeeded in ruling as Sultan from 1192-1196 until he was overthrown and banished by his brother Suleiman II. He later succeeds in retaking the sultanate after returning from exile in Constantinople and becomes Sultan again from 1205-1211) (Other note about Kaykhusraw: During his exile, he met and married the daughter of Manuel Maurozomes who is the son of an illegitimate daughter of Byzantine Emperor Manuel I Komnenos. Kaykhusraw’s son from that marriage, Kayqubad I, becomes Seljuk Sultan in 1220. Kaykhusraw I died in single combat against the Emperor of Nicaea.)

Lords: (Backstory: In 1186 the aging Seljuk Sultan Kilij Arslan II divided the realm among his ten sons, brother, and nephew.) (malik means king in Arabic and is the title the Seljuk rulers had rather than lord.)
Rukn ad-Din Suleiman Shah who later become Sultan Suleiman II (malik of Tokat)
Kutb ad-Din  Malik-Shah (malik of Sivas and Aksaray)
Kaiser Shah (malik of Malatya)
Muhyi ad-Din Mas’ud (malik of Ankara)
Mughith Ad-Din Toghril (malik of Elbistan and later malik of Erzurum)
Nasir Ad-Din Berkyaruqshah (malik of Niksar)
Sancarshah (malik of Eregli)
Arslan Shah (malik of Nigde)
Nizam ad-Din Argunshah (malik of Amasya)
Nur ad-Din Sultanshah (malik of Kayseri)

Description of Seljuk Rule: “Seljuk rule was tolerant of race, religion and gender. Churches and synagogues flourished, and some of the finest examples of Seljuk architecture, including huge mosques, theological seminaries, hospitals and caravanserais, were built on the orders of empresses and princesses.”

Economy of Seljuk Turkey:
“The economic system of the Seljuk Turks was very advanced and essentially based on farming and metal. Coinage jump started this economic revolution and became an extremely large part of the Seljuk economy. The Seljuk Turks created large coins out of copper and other precious metals between the 10th and 13th centuries. While many other civilizations were still using the Barter system, the economically advanced Turks were trading these coins for food, animals, and other industrial goods.
Because of the rich land, agriculture became very important to the economy of the Seljuk's. The main crops being produced were grain, cotton, and wheat. These were all very beneficial because they supplied the most important necessity, substantial food.
In addition to agriculture, domesticated animals were a big source of food and money for the Seljuk Sultanate. Animals such as sheep, goats, pigs, and horses were kept on large plots of land and were greatly important. These animals were used as food, trading items, and for transportation.
Perhaps the most significant economic activity going on during the Seljuk Sultanate was trade. Trade made up for almost half of the total economy in the Middle East during that time period. Once the internal issues, such as food supplies, were dealt with, the Seljuk Turks began to trade with many other world powers for luxuries.
The main trade routes of the Seljuk Sultanate were around Europe, Asia, and India. The Seljuk's traded a lot with China, receiving silk, spices, and rice for their valuable coins and wheat. Other regions gave them wax, precious gems, olive oil, sugar, wine, and salt.  They also obtained fruits, dates, honey, wool for clothes, pearls, coral, iron, saffron, perfume, timber for building, and furs of all kinds.  All of these goods helped the economy of the Seljuk Sultanate thrive. ”

Seljuk Armies: “The Seljuk sultans depended both on their tribal contingents, lightly armed mounted archers and, increasingly, on a multi-ethnic standing army, many of these troops being slave soldiers (ghulams), comprising Arabs, Kurds, Armenians, Georgians, etc.; these professionals comprised heavily armed and armoured cavalrymen and infantrymen with swords and spears. For them a system of land grants grew up, on whose revenues the warriors, their mounts and weapons could be supported.”

Major cities: Konya, Kayseri, Sivas
Regions still not under Seljuk control in 1200 but captured soon thereafter: Attalia/Antalya (1207) Sinop (1214) Erzurum (1202)

"... [seljuk] seats of the court: Konya, Kayseri, Sivas" (Subjects of the Sultan: Culture and Daily Life in the Ottoman Empire, P.2

[update]
Seljuk exports:

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    sugar from the refineries of Alanya
    soap
    thoroughbred horses
    livestock
    produce: fruits (notably apricots), grains, olives, wheat, salted fish
    textiles and carpets
    dried wheat
    chemical and mineral compounds: alum, salt, borax, yellow arsenic orpiment ("King's yellow" arsenic trisulfide pigment). Alum, an essential mordant for dyeing wool, was a particularly important export
    metals: silver, lead, tin, zinc, copper, iron
    lapis lazuli
    leather, wool, mohair
    gum Arabica, pine resin, timber
    slaves, taken captive in war or raid, usually supplied by the Kipchaks. Slaves appeared to be the most valuable commodity of the Black Sea route. The Seljuks were the middlemen in the trade of slaves. Circassians and Kipchaks of Southern Russia were sold in the great markets of the Crimea to the Egyptians who imported them to become Mamluk slave servants.

Mail, and documents of official and governmental nature were also transported along these routes.

Seljuk Imports:

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        spices, arms and cotton from Egypt
        light-weight woolens, delicate silks, musk, ambergris and other perfumes from Baghdad
        glass from Syria and Iraq
        cobalt from Iran
        fine silk, pearls, paper, sandalwood, gun powder, jade, lacquer and porcelain from China
        gems from Central Asia
        black pepper, gems, gold and silver ingots, pharmaceutical products and aromatics from India
        thoroughbred horses from Georgia
        slaves, Caspian caviar and furs from the Caucasus and Southern Russia.

Hope this helps And great work to everyone in this mod, keep up the good work!

 

[corwin_of_amber]

Suggested Seljuk Army Roster (The modifications to the current proposed roster are based on extensive internet research) [/b]

This is the Old Troop Tree (version1.0). The new troop tree is a few posts ahead in this thread.

Castle Recruitment 1 (Professional)                       

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                          'Askar Recruit (cavalry equipped with mace or sword)
                                        /                                                  \
'Askar Muesellem (medium cavalry)                Yaya Kılıç Askar (sword and bow infantry)
                    /                      \
'Askar Lancers            'Askar Gedikli (Horse Archers)
                  I
'Askar Güçlü Lancers

Plus Royal Ghulams and Royal Yaya Ghulam (archers with armour) only spawn in the Sultan's army.

Castle Recruitment 2 (Provincial Noble)

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                      Iqta’dars (medium cavalry, heavy mace, also have bow as secondary)       
                        I
                      Beys
                        I
                      Atabeys (literaly father-prince, these were advisers and protectors of underage royal scions
                                                    who acted like independent rulers of their provinces.)

City Recruitment

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                                          Ahdath (literally 'Young men')
                                            /                                        \
                    Mutatawia (volunteers)                Rumi Crossbowmen
                      /                              \
Fityan (urban militia recruited      Jundar (second class medium cavalry)
            from futuwa lodges)
(Note: crossbows were used by Seljuks since at least 1150)
(Note 2: These troops are mostly used as garrison troops)

             
Village Recruitment

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                      Anatolian Okchu Levies (light infantry armed with crudes and simple bow)
                                                      /                        \
Turkoman Shakirt Nomad (cavalry)    Mukaddeme Pişdar Infantry (frontline fodder infantry in Seljuk Armies
                        I                                                                I                    also armed with light javelins)
Turkoman Kemankesh Tribesman      Saka-Dümdar Süngük Infantry (moderately armored spearmen
                        I                                                      trained to defend the center, also armed with light javelins)
Turkoman Kemankesh Raider
                        I                                                                         
Turkoman Kemankesh Frontiersmen
                        I
                  Ghazis (medium horse archers with scimitars and good melee attack)

Mercenaries:

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Rumi ‘Firenk’ Heavy Cavalry, Azeri Infantry, Greek and Armenian auxiliary

Note on army wages for mercenaries: "Franks were paid 2-5 times as much as their Muslim counterparts."

Notes:

1- 'kemankesh' term used by seljuk turks though the term was orginially persian.
'keman' means "violin", "strings", "bow strings".
'kesh' means for "the one who uses the
lexiconally it means 'bowmen' The term is used for master archers.
2- Kilij is a curved sword used by Seljuks
3- Okchu means simple peasant archer
4- Shakirt means inexperienced archer
5- Yaya means (on foot)
6- Cebe: old Turkish word for armor.
7- Askari: Turkish word for soldier.
8- Güçlü: strong and superior

 

[corwin_of_amber]

Seljuk Flag

we know from historical sources that Tughrul Beg's personal tamgha (seal) was bow-and-arrow (bow was a symbol of authority among the Turks, and arrows were symbols of submission) and the double-headed eagle was used by the Seljuk-period Oghuz Turks quite frequently. You can see double-headed eagles on Seljuk coins and Artuqid reliefs on the city walls of Diyarbakır, for example. Here are some pics:

[update] Examples of How the Flag may look like (Note: I did not make those): [update]

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From Erzurum- Çifte Minareli Medrese

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From Sivas- Divriği Ulu Camii

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From Konya- İnce Minareli Medrese

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Other examples

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This is an amateurish representation of the seljuk flag first produced by TRT (Turkish national tv-radio) in 1969. This is Not the Actual Flag.

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Additional Note I came across:

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"Another motif vigorously employed by the Seljuks is the lion, in bas-relief or in three dimensions - a favorite further West as well (where there is evidence of the reworking of antique lions). This may be why the Knights incorporated lions, (presumably from the Mausoleum: there were estimated to be either 56 or 72 lions decorating the Mausoleum) in their fortress. Given that the motif precedes the Greeks as well as the Romans, and may well come from further East (nearer the homelands of the Seljuks."

 

[NikeBG]

Wow, very good! Very good indeed! And many thanks as well!

Though, yes, we strive to be as historically correct to the starting point as the game allows us to. Thus, Konya would probably have to be under crusader control, if it was so in the year 1200.

 

[corwin_of_amber]

Glad you liked my research. Thank you My research on the seljuks is not over yet by the way. I have more coming soon regarding their settlements, battle-gear, and even Seljuk cuisine!

As for Konya, its status during 1200 is somewhat unclear. Now we know for sure that the battle for Iconium(Konya) took place on May 1190 during which the German Crusaders under Fredrick Barbarossa stormed Konya and won. All sources agree on this, but from that point on the sources are conflicting.

Wikipedia says that Kaykhusraw I (successor and predecessor to Sultan Suleiman II) retook the city on 1205 which infers a period of occupation of fifteen years. There was also one post on a forum that mentioned specifically the 15 year occupation period.

The problem is these are the only sources I could find that mentioned this. Every other source mentions that Konya was only “briefly” captured or that their stay was “temporary” which does not infer a 15 year period. And two primary sources from the period, “Historia de Expeditione Frederici Imperatoris” and “The Chronicle of Ibn al-Athir” don’t even mention that they held the city.

Two sources mention that Konya was not captured because even though the Germans stormed the city he could not capture its citadel and were subsequently repelled.
“Although the German Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa has besieged Konya (May 18, 1190) during the 3rd Crusades, he has not been able to take possession of the fortress defended by Kilic Arslan II, and has had to retreat after five days. Until the fall of the Seljuks (130,  Konya has remained as the Capitol.”

A book called “God’s War: A New History of the Crusades” published by Harvard University press actually says that the city was just sacked. The Germans left the area of Iconium and went on their way after the Sultan Kilij Arslan II agreed to supply them with provisions.

There is also another issue to deal with. Assuming Konya, which was the relatively prosperous capital of the Seljuks, indeed under crusader control for fifteen years, then why:
1- No source mentions their activities in Konya from 1190-1205
2- No mention of any reinforcements to garrison the city.
3- No mention of any crusader built defenses or buildings in the city during the period.
4- No mention of an interim capital for the Seljuks. In fact all sources say Konya was the capital of the Seljuks until the 14th century.
5- No mention of any attempt to retake the city or that even it was occupied in the first place.
6- Finally, there is no mention of any battle in retaking it.

In fact there is no mention of Konya at all between 1190 and 1205 during that period, and none of the period maps shows the city as occupied by the Franks. This means either it wasn’t really under crusader control during that whole period or at least they did not have full-spectrum control over that city.

In fact all sources mention that after the battle of Konya in 1190, most of the army disbanded after Barbarossa died a month later on June 1190. So even if small elements of the crusader army did actually stay in Konya, maybe they were embroiled in the conflict of Seljuk Succession taking place at the time rather than being in control themselves.

So, having said that, here’s my recommendation: unless someone is able to find some solid sources attesting to the 15 year occupation and control of Konya during that period, I say we keep Konya under Seljuk control. And a note to remind myself: Wikipedia is not always right!

 

[corwin_of_amber]

Maps for the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum and its borders in the year 1200:

Map1:

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Map 2:

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Map3:

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Map4: Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia (and it's adjacent border with the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum)

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I am currently working on a detailed list of villages and castles of the Seljuk sultanate, I have made very good progress and hopefully it will be done very soon.

There is something that needs to be settled though. As you can notice from map 2 and 3, the eastern border of the Seljuk sultanate is messy, as it is peppered by small independent Turkic tribes (meguceks, saltuqids, Artuqids). Now are these tribes going to be represented as tiny independent kingdoms? It is good to keep in mind when deciding on this issue, that by year 1201 the Seljuks had conquered Erzincan and the city of Erzurum and the surrounding area.

So guys, what’s it gonna be? Let me know please so that I would know whether to include them or not in the upcoming Seljuk settlement roster.

Note: You cant rely only on the maps to recreate the borders as they are not completely accurate in some cases, especially in places that featured back and forth conflict. Research has to be done on the history of individual settlements to determine under whose control they were.

 

[NikeBG]

The settlements in those areas have to be in either way (we can't leave them empty), so do include them - the only question would be about their ownership.

 

[Alex_S]

If they were there in 1200 then they should appear in the mod I think, but maybe things can be simplified a bit for these factions;
They're all pretty small, I don't think they would have more than one E1200 town or castle and some villages linked to that center; so when that town falls the faction is eliminated; of course there is the issue of lords but what I'm thinking can be done is have a single lord, the faction leader, and maybe have him "stuck" to the capital, it's possible to have parties be immobile, don't know how you can make them be immobile and stay in the town at the same time, but it can prly be done. So it'll be very easy for the Seljuks to conquer them once the game begins, and historical accuracy is satisfied too. The factions don't need an awful lot of research, since they'd be using the same culture as the Seljuks; just the towns need to be agreed upon, one lord for each faction, and maybe one banner.
This creates a sort of "neutral" factions because they won't be able to take any kind of aggressive action.